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Rob Marshall

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2021, 05:39:56 PM »
“Isn't JN involved & committed to a lot of charities?”

[size=78%]https://www.nicklauschildrens.org/news-and-events/press-releases/nicklaus-health-care-foundation-60-million-pledge [/size]


And he’s a problem for the game?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

David_Elvins

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2021, 06:58:20 PM »
That's what makes this country great. You can use your freedom of speech to attack someone for theirs..........I mean the Nicklaus family hasn't done anything for anyone but themselves right?   https://nchcf.org/


I am not attacking him.  Just saying that having the most prominent elder statesman of the game chumming up to Trump in support of a violent undemocratic coup is going to reflect badly on the game and that the game of golf will have an ongoing image problem unless it distances itself from Trump, Nicklaus et al ASAP. 


This isn't partisan politics and shouldn't be a controversial opinion. Its a pretty simple case of reading the room.  These guys will carry a stench and so will the game of golf if they remain its most prominent figureheads.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 07:23:50 PM by David_Elvins »
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Rob Marshall

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2021, 07:34:54 PM »
Please show me where JN was “game chumming up to Trump in support of a violent undemocratic coup”.


You’re telling me that JN supported a violent coup? Wow!


I don’t disagree that golf should distance themselves of Trump. I read today the PGA is going to be moved. Saying JN supports violence is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 07:47:06 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Steve Lang

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2021, 07:47:48 PM »
 8)   Time out David Elvins, nice try at back peddling, but its now locked into a couple of replies, you were calling for Jack to be cancelled!     
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

David_Elvins

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2021, 08:45:48 PM »
8)   Time out David Elvins, nice try at back peddling, but its now locked into a couple of replies, you were calling for Jack to be cancelled!   


Didn't know I was back peddling, Steve. 


I am well aware that there are plenty of Nicklaus fan boys on here and a propensity to suspend reality in the USA lately, but the International news papers are already getting into Nicklaus and the American papers will likely soon follow.  Golf already has an image problem among the general population before this!


I can't believe anyone is willing to argue that this is good for the image of golf. 


Even Golf Digest is saying golf needs to distance itself from Trump and if Nicklaus won't distance himself from Trump then logically golf needs to distance itself from Nicklaus too.


Happy to hear a counter argument if anyone wants to put one up.


EDIT:  PGA just put a lifetime ban on Trump courses.  Its happenning already.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 02:40:37 AM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Kalen Braley

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2021, 11:12:07 AM »
I don't know I'd go as far as David suggests, but this has certainly not aged well...at all.

Reported Oct 29th

In his Wednesday statement of support for Trump, he wrote: “You might not like the way our President says or tweets some things – and trust me, I have told him that! – but I have learned to look past that and focus on what he’s tried to accomplish.

“This is not a personality contest; it’s about patriotism, policies and the people they impact. His love for America and its citizens, and putting his country first, has come through loud and clear. How he has said it has not been important to me. What has been important are his actions.”


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2020/10/29/jack-nicklaus-voted-president-donald-trump/

Carl Rogers

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2021, 06:12:42 PM »
Moderator, please delete.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Andrew Harvie

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2021, 06:30:47 PM »
This thread is a dumpster fire.


I think how people view golf in Canada has improved this year. Maximum participation and I think many saw the benefit of an outdoor activity that lets you socialize with friends. I don't think that goes away, especially if 2021 is similar-ish to 2020. Not sure on the US or elsewhere, but I can't imagine it got worse with record participation

V. Kmetz

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2021, 11:38:41 PM »
Who has authority to say what golf's image is to the general public, but for me its been racing to the bottom before CoVid, well before the repeated mouthed sedition and armed treason incited by the brand name of 17 golf courses, and an (inactive) member of the club/course where the US Open was most recently played...


Again image is different to you, to me, to some person who hasn't played golf, to people who play and watched a lot of golf but for me the top end of the sport continues to demonstrate craven, avarice for the bucks with lip service to the people who play, minister and experience it locally season in and season out....


When I think of "golf as a public image now;" I see the eye-rolling faux nonsense of the Fed Ex Cup... this manufactured patriotic puffery of the Ryder Cup, which is actually a Palm Beach member guest (with luminaries like Tiger and Phil once grumbling about pay); $800 fees for PB; I see that disgusting spectacle of Phoenix every year, where drunken catcalls and gladiatorial lust destroy whatever dignity remains of the game... I see Matt Kuchar trying to claim the legal right of parsimony with a local caddie... I see the governing bodies cowed by the almighty dollar, by equipment and advertisers...I see a world expectantly agog about BDC's certain domination of the future; I see them having events at Moloch's courses in the first place.


...and now the games' greatest winner, old and in his dotage, clinging to this mythical separation of the body real and the body politic... its YOUR colonoscopy Jack, own it and keep the results to yourself... no comment, please.

But then, the more congealed private image of golf here... as CoVid raged, this board exchanged ClickGear prices and product specs, bemoaned governmental lockdowns and single rider carts, parroted the Executive Pestilence, spread amateur false comparisons about H1N1 ten years ago, (in FUCKING APRIL):


https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html#:~:text=From%20April%2012%2C%202009%20to,the%20(H1N1)pdm09%20virus.


...carped about boring golf coverage, decried the loss of their precious golf trips, and whether they would get refunds... Posters who don't own a golf course, insure a golf course or minister a golf course, mused about insurance and profits for golf courses they will never play or perhaps never heard about before a thread... we had posters (even some of our brightest, most professional minds) opportunize CoVid to grind an old axe on walking, on faster play, on utilization of tee sheets.... to bandy the diminution and economic destruction of caddying...


...and when yours truly posted the national list of those private and proprietary golf clubs that took the PPP (the greatest gift swindle and abandonment of working class in recorded history), we had the number one loudmouth idiot of this boards history, the Olymprick try to make the case that waitressing part-time for $500 a week working in CoVid conditions, where the employer can cook the books to keep 39.99 of the loan, with no repayment was better for our world than $850 a week for that same worker, and his or her pandemic community staying home...


We have a September 11 almost every day for 9 months and these are the some of the things this board cared about, most of it having nothing to do with GCA.


So I don't know about the public image for all, but my private image of golf is that most of the world is well-justified in interpreting a "Hooray for me and fuck you" coming from the game... I give my finger back.


The best thing for golf would be if no one was talking about it.

The game would be better off if it was like, say, checkers or bowling -- with millions of people happily playing it well under the radar, with nary a single television broadcast or voluminous writings or endless podcasts out there to promote it and 'grow the game'.


A cogent comment Peter, but would that be true if there were anything good to say of it?  Would it be true if the public figure most associated with it, were not Commodus?







« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 11:40:59 PM by V. Kmetz »
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2021, 12:28:34 AM »
Ally,


Can't disagree with you... just reporting what some folks said to me.   BTW, the young were walkers in their 40's and the old were 70+ years old


It’s good news if that is the case in the US. Just don’t think we manage to sell the sport’s image well in GB&I. With Coronavirus, it should have been an open goal as the perfect sport. But we’ve still failed.

Ally

I am not so sure. I always thought golf should be advertised as a chance to get outdoors, get a bit of fresh air, a walk and some company. I think these are the main reasons people are flocking to golf during Covid 19.

Happy Hockey
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 12:33:34 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2021, 06:10:03 AM »
Would it be true if the public figure most associated with it, were not Commodus?



In the middle of the second term of Woke Golfer President Obama, this was written in the Bible of Wokesters aka The Atlantic:

The Golf Digest cover is a mistake, a problem that should — and probably will — be addressed by editors, who will apologize for emphasizing sexiness over the sport. Then, if we are to continue down the slippery path of fairness, the PGA and USGA should shut their doors, and private clubs across the country should either become public or be converted into affordable housing. At that point, the damage done by golf will be nearly eradicated, and we will consider this incident resolved.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/04/yes-the-cover-of-golf-digest-is-tacky-gross-and-exclusionary-but-so-is-golf/360199/

I honestly can't tell how much sarcasm, if any, was written into that article.

From Eisenhower the Military man, to now President Joe, golf has always been picked on, and will continue to get picked on, and who cares amongst those of us that still love lipping out on 18 for a 90!!

I agreed with Peter's point in the sense that who cares who is President of the United States when you are playing golf. Especially in 2020, when it was a great release for so many people. With Yale being closed and many friends limited in their ability to invite guest in 2020, I found a renewed love of Munis, and an expanding love for Military courses. From 2020 NAS Pensacola - AC Reed GC on Thanksgiving morning:



I could go on and on about micro aggressions against my Autistic son around golf courses over the years. It forced me to find hiking as a sport that we could really share. My son enjoys it, and we both get fit. Guess what, I am now the Hiking Instructor at my son's community in Rockland County, and Hike with Mike is a great way to spend a Friday:



Let's stop cancelling stuff, including Jack Nicklaus, and let's follow Dr Sagan's advice:



My wife loves Broadway Musicals and Live Music. She is kinda screwed. Golf and golfers will be fine...
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

corey miller

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2021, 08:06:30 AM »





V Kmetz is the most correct on this thread. 


Perhaps like in the "real world" this pandemic has will strengthen the already strong clubs in relation to the less strong.  I am sure the "top 100" will be happy.  A metaphor for how we have treated big business in relation to small for the last year.

David Davis

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2021, 09:45:24 AM »
From where I'm sitting and a large part due to politics which I'm not interested in the least bit in addressing I'd say the image among non-golfers must be at or near an all time low sadly. I have to cringe every time I hear the media say POTUS is off golfing like they are blaming the game on every move that is made. Maybe this is more overseas rather than in the US, you guys can let me know if you see it being portrayed the same way there.


I'd also have to share this article given it was posted in one of our WhatsApp groups just yesterday when we were literally discussing this same topic.


I admit to having a strong dislike for this article even if there may be hints of truth in it.


https://www.euronews.com/living/2021/01/09/golf-is-a-giant-board-game-damaging-the-planet-time-for-it-to-go


I took immediate action by sending it to a friend of mine who is finishing his PHD in turf science at the same University in of all places The Netherlands (further causing me shame) and asking him to please control his fellow classmates (attempting not to make any suggestions that may incite TOO MUCH violence at their campus) to protect his future career and the game that I could not imagine being without. (Disclaimer: author intended post to be perceived in mildly tongue and cheek manner)
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2021, 11:28:31 AM »
David,


Thanks for posting. I now tend to read more from overseas writers and such, so I did read this until:

Now is when I should disclose I am an American. And I’m sorry about that. Deeply, deeply sorry.

No reason to read past there for me. We obviously have lots and lots of flaws over here in USA, but enough is enough. When she mentions the HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars that I have raised for and/or attended through Autism golf charity events, then I will continue reading her essay.

Back to Ithaca to learn from a real scientist:


"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Peter Pallotta

Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2021, 12:21:30 PM »
VK's post got me thinking:
1. I've seen the enemy, and he's me!
2. Sand Hills wasn't built because raters clamoured for it or because writers lobbied for it, but because Mr. Youngscap bought the land and C&C then envisioned it.
3. Checker players, as far as I can tell, don't dream about and long for the private club experience.
4. You won't find, I don't think, a $15 hot dog in any bowling alley anywhere in the world.
5. Technologically, the bowling ball hasn't changed or improved significantly in a very long time.
6. I don't think there's an United States Checkers Association -- and if there is its Executive Director keeps a very low profile.


« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 12:30:43 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jeff Schley

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2021, 12:28:28 PM »
In before the lock!


I’m not going to waste minutes of my life reading elongated explanations of politics on GCA. Much less any that attack JN for his support of a particular candidate which over 70 million other Americans voted for. You have yours, I have mine, they have theirs; we can discuss but not punish those who differ from ours. If it ain’t hate speech, it is speech and it is protected in the constitution. I don’t think it is an accident that Freedom of Speech was the First Amendment to the Constitution, as authorities had always tried to control its use.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Mark Pearce

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2021, 12:49:55 PM »
This thread has got me thinking.  I have played golf since I was in my mid 20s, so thirty years now.  I have had an enormous amount of pleasure from the game and from meeting many other golfers.  My three sons all play to varying extents.  Golf is a fine game, which, at its best, requires tremendous skill, is played on beautiful natural grounds, encourages honesty and sportsmanship, provides moments of great drama, captivates and elevates.  I have loved the game.


Recently, however, for various reasons, other sides of the game have pressed themselves forward in my consciousness.  It is a game that, in many cases, celebrates privilege and entitlement.  It is a game that still struggles to encourage diversity.  It is a game that does little to really encourage or even welcome participation from anyone other than its traditional core.  It's leading players are, on the whole, a pretty poor reflection on the game.  Without wanting to make more of it than should be made, for me at least, the fact that Player and Sorenstam turned up last week to pick up their baubles was a very sad reflection on what golf has become.  I'm finding it difficult to look on golf well at the moment, so asking the general public to do so would be a stretch.


I'm afraid I'm with those who think the image of the game has deteriorated in the last decade, not improved.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2021, 01:05:11 PM »
Very good post, Mark: an honest and rhetoric-free balancing of thought & feeling.


Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2021, 01:15:13 PM »
Golf is a game, it doesn't "do" anything.  I don't know about the "image" of golf, or care much, but from my vantage point golf in the US during the pandemic has become more popular, and in no small part because in the right company it is a wonderful, safe, healthy escape from exactly the kind of rubbish and unbridled vitriol we find on this thread. 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2021, 02:40:04 PM »
VK's post got me thinking:
1. I've seen the enemy, and he's me!
2. Sand Hills wasn't built because raters clamoured for it or because writers lobbied for it, but because Mr. Youngscap bought the land and C&C then envisioned it.
3. Checker players, as far as I can tell, don't dream about and long for the private club experience.
4. You won't find, I don't think, a $15 hot dog in any bowling alley anywhere in the world.
5. Technologically, the bowling ball hasn't changed or improved significantly in a very long time.
6. I don't think there's an United States Checkers Association -- and if there is its Executive Director keeps a very low profile.
In the new series out on Netflix, The Queens Gambit, view the last scene if you haven't seen it.  She wins the championship and before leaving Russia to return to the US she walks the sidewalk thru all the public playing chess and sits down to play.  Replace that with golf for a moment.  That's where I see us going with golf right now...or maybe we always were and I did not realize it....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2021, 03:06:27 PM »
VK:  Kudos on your impressive rant.  I had missed it after bailing from the thread when it became a bashing of Jack Nicklaus.  I don't agree with his politics, but of course I don't agree with a lot of people's politics, including people who seek to 'cancel' other people on the basis of their politics.


It's always difficult for me to think about how the public views golf, because when I think of the sport my mental image is what I saw in Scotland, and unfortunately for most people it is instead the exclusive American country club.  And, if that's your image of golf, you'd probably be right to want to cancel the sport.


Even in America, that image of golf is not the big picture -- there are thousands more public courses than private ones, and most private clubs are not very exclusionary.  But of course, people only think of what they see on television, so Augusta National [bastion of exclusivity] and Pebble Beach [$800 green fee] are the public perception, even when there is an affordable golf course three miles down the road from them.


P.S.  I have always understood, because of my job, that 90% of people don't play golf, and that lopsidedness presents a potential barrier to the permitting of new golf courses.  The idea that golf is bad for the environment should really be adjudicated on a case by case basis, but the black and white thinking now prevalent in the world makes that harder and harder for people to remember.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2021, 03:11:58 PM »
Golf is a game, it doesn't "do" anything.  I don't know about the "image" of golf, or care much, but from my vantage point golf in the US during the pandemic has become more popular, and in no small part because in the right company it is a wonderful, safe, healthy escape from exactly the kind of rubbish and unbridled vitriol we find on this thread.


Bernie:  you are right about the first sentence.


However that part about "in the right company" is part of the problem.  My guess is you probably would enjoy [and probably have enjoyed] a game of golf with people at all various points along the spectrum of views expressed on this thread.  That's one of the "bestest" things about the game.  But when you say "in the right company," all of those non-golfers are likely to think that you mean to exclude them, and people who think like them.  So, please cut it out!

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2021, 04:21:46 PM »
I don't mean to exclude anyone of any persuasion or golf ability; by "right company" I meant those who are out to enjoy the day away from socio-political argument and hostility.  The course can be a nice refuge from the madness if we allow it to be.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2021, 04:26:56 PM »
"I had missed it after bailing from the thread when it became a bashing of Jack Nicklaus.  I don't agree with his politics, but of course I don't agree with a lot of people's politics, including people who seek to 'cancel' other people on the basis of their politics."

Bingo!
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2021, 04:42:39 PM »
"I had missed it after bailing from the thread when it became a bashing of Jack Nicklaus.  I don't agree with his politics, but of course I don't agree with a lot of people's politics, including people who seek to 'cancel' other people on the basis of their politics."

Bingo!


Lets revisit in a year and see how its going.  I assume that support for a violent authoritarian coup attempt could not be written off a "politics" but will be very happy (for the sake of the game of golf) if proven wrong!
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

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