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Thomas Dai

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The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« on: January 08, 2021, 07:20:02 AM »
Golf has an image, maybe a bunch of different images.
Has golfs image improved or worsened over the last few years or has there been no change?
And if so, does this tell us something about the future of the game including how and where it's played?
Thoughts?
atb


Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2021, 07:23:45 AM »
In Ireland, it got worse in the summer off the back of a golf society outing full of politicians, judges and civil servants where the post-game dinner broke COVID-19 restrictions.


No bigger story this year among the Irish chattering classes.

John Emerson

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2021, 09:12:52 AM »
With the financial divide between the haves and have-nots widening in the USA I would say that it has gotten worse. 
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Tom_Doak

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2021, 09:28:53 AM »
With the financial divide between the haves and have-nots widening in the USA I would say that it has gotten worse.


More precisely, like so much else in the US, it has improved among 10-20% and gotten worse among the other 80%.


jeffwarne

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2021, 12:31:23 PM »
I'd say during the pandemic, it got better.
People regarding it as exercise, and more importantly millions more trying it giving us more people that (might) defend it from the haters.
Sadly, there are the negatives in terms of sustainability via over-conditioning and the never ending increase in scale.


and the 800 lb departing gorilla...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2021, 01:08:55 PM »
The best thing for golf would be if no one was talking about it.

The game would be better off if it was like, say, checkers or bowling -- with millions of people happily playing it well under the radar, with nary a single television broadcast or voluminous writings or endless podcasts out there to promote it and 'grow the game'.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2021, 01:15:26 PM »
The best thing for golf would be if no one was talking about it.

The game would be better off if it was like, say, checkers or bowling -- with millions of people happily playing it well under the radar, with nary a single television broadcast or voluminous writings or endless podcasts out there to promote it and 'grow the game'.


This is absolutely 100% correct

Steve Lang

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2021, 02:33:38 PM »
 8)  Being a club golfer, I'm totally biased on overall image of golf, but from some discussion with non-golfers, i hear them saying the pro game its better than watching paint dry or watching overpaid pro athletes ruining their sports with politics. 


The image is generally up due to it being a walking sport......  that young and old can connect with.
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tom_Doak

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2021, 02:38:55 PM »
The best thing for golf would be if no one was talking about it.



But then how would people get paid $1 million for being in charge of it . . .


Oh.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2021, 02:41:26 PM »
8)  Being a club golfer, I'm totally biased on overall image of golf, but from some discussion with non-golfers, i hear them saying the pro game its better than watching paint dry or watching overpaid pro athletes ruining their sports with politics. 


The image is generally up due to it being a walking sport......  that young and old can connect with.


Steve, I don’t think the image has anything to do with young and old, walking or not.


Golf just cannot shake the image that it is a sport for the elite and entitled. That is what needs to be dispelled.

Steve Lang

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2021, 02:47:47 PM »
Ally,


Can't disagree with you... just reporting what some folks said to me.   BTW, the young were walkers in their 40's and the old were 70+ years old
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2021, 02:53:20 PM »
Ally,


Can't disagree with you... just reporting what some folks said to me.   BTW, the young were walkers in their 40's and the old were 70+ years old


It’s good news if that is the case in the US. Just don’t think we manage to sell the sport’s image well in GB&I. With Coronavirus, it should have been an open goal as the perfect sport. But we’ve still failed.

jeffwarne

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2021, 02:55:31 PM »
The best thing for golf would be if no one was talking about it.

The game would be better off if it was like, say, checkers or bowling -- with millions of people happily playing it well under the radar, with nary a single television broadcast or voluminous writings or endless podcasts out there to promote it and 'grow the game'.


This is absolutely 100% correct


Exactly the game we grew up with and fell in love with.
before it was a "business"


remember when bowling(and putt-putt) were as televised as golf?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Steve Lang

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2021, 03:32:03 PM »
 8)  The PBA used to have World Championships in Toledo and regular events before that, and though we used to bowl at the Imperial Lanes bowling alley at Central & Reynolds Rds... seeing it on tv was not memorable, I only remember Chris Shenkel's voice from the ABC broadcasts.


... and i do remember Putt-Putt and played it in many states!  literally


As long as there's private clubs, the eliteism aspect will continue.  At least the USGA created a US PubLinks Championship... which coincidentally was first held at Ottawa Park, In Toledo, 1922... coming up on its centennial soon!  This brought to you by SP Jermain... if there were more folks like him, perhaps the image of golf and all things golf might be better today... but he did get Inverness going out on the west side of Toledo out on Dorr St and got the City to extend the trolleys out there.




Sylvanus Pierson Jermain
July 31, 1859 - April 20, 1935
HE SERVED HIS CITY Toledo, Ohio
Major Accomplishments/ Highlights of a Lifetime
The “Father of Toledo Parks and Boulevards”, served four terms as President/Chairman of the Board of Parks Commissioners. Served the City of Toledo as Director of Welfare, 1925-26   His greatest source of pride being the establishment of parks in Toledo at Riverside, Ottawa, Walbridge, BayView and Collins Parks
Mr. Jermain was Treasurer, Woolson Spice Co. for 26 years. 

SP founded the first nine hole golf course west of NYC at Ottawa Park in 1899, then designed the 2nd nine holes in 1920-21.  (always wondered if Ross didn't help him a little??)
SP also developed and founded golf courses at Bayview (1920), Spuyten Dyval (1930), Collins Parks (1932).  Mr. Jermain was a consultant in the building of Highland Meadows, Chippewa, and Glengarry country clubs.  

Founded a children’s golf course at White City Park, which was renamed Jermain Park in his honor in 1915 at age 55.

 
Mr. Sylvanus P. Jermain, a lifelong bachelor, was best known for his devoted efforts, unbeaten soul and unselfish service in promoting the game of golf for the public and the private club of Inverness Club. 
SP wrote what became the one of the first rules of US golf in 1907 at age 48, titled The American Code of GOLF.

SP was the President of the Toledo District Golf Association for thirteen years, 1922-34, and was appointed Life Member status


SP Jermain was the first President of the Inverness Club and was highly involved in picking out the land and establishing the private club membership.

SP was widely known around the world  as “The Father of Public Golf in America” and  especially in Toledo.  A bronze statue honoring SP Jermain was presented by the Jermain Sun Dial Association in 1928 on a granite rock which stood next to the original Ottawa Park clubhouse on top of the hill at Bancroft and Ottawa Dr.  After several thefts, the statue was stolen on Jan.10, 2006 and never recovered. Today, May 2009 we dedicate the replacement statue by the Friends of SP Jermain/ 21st Century, the City of Toledo, and The Arts Commission of Greater Toledo.

“Pierre” Jermain was inducted posthumously into the Toledo Athletic Hall of Fame in 1959. His nephew, F. Jermain Chandler was in town (from Detroit) to accept the honor.

SP
was responsible for bringing the US Open to Inverness Club in 1920, then again in 1931, and the club was honored with a gift/ grandfather clock by the golf professionals for opening the doors for the first time to the clubhouse and locker rooms. SP pleaded with the Inverness membership endlessly (unbeaten soul) to make this happen.

SP was the President of  the Ohio Golf, Central States and Western Golf Associations in the early 1900sSPwasthe originator of the idea to hold international matches between the United Kingdom and USA. The matches became known as the Ryder Cup. It was SP Jermain who convinced the PGA of America to conduct the matches in 1927.

At the time of his death on Sat. April 20, 1935 at Mercy Hospital,           SP was 75 years, 8 months, and 19 days of age.

SP
brought the first US Public Links Championship to Ottawa Park GC in 1922, and he conducted a golf exhibition at OP in 1929, between Horton Smith (winner of first Masters/1934) and PGA champion Walter Hagen.

Opening day at Inverness/ 1903 was declared “Jermain Day

On the Memorial Day, 1900 at Ottawa Park, Parks Commissioner SP Jermain declared it “Field Day” and provided free transportation to the golf course, and free golf was offered to all to enjoy the game and the beautiful Ottawa Park.

SP was “the leading spirit” in every golf tournament and every golf meeting of consequence for so long that no one could recall golf without visioning the presence of this man. Blade April 22, 1935.SP was “unselfishness personified” according to the Blade, through all of his career, this was the one characteristic that stood out with splendid prominence.

SP was a man who labored without the slightest thought of personal gain, in the minds of thousands who knew him, this was his predominant trait.SP was a born / native of Adrian, MI and moved to Toledo in 1871.The MetroParks Toledo system of today would be and is beyond SP’s wildest dreams and these parks are the culmination of his pioneering efforts and the great work of MetroParks Toledo.

SP Jermain was inducted into the Toledo Civic Hall of Fame/ 2000, under the Pioneer category.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 04:07:41 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tim Leahy

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2021, 10:34:12 PM »
Lost all respect for Jack Nicklouse when he endorsed Trump for President in Ohio. Hurts the image of golf when a face of the sport sells out. :P
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

David_Elvins

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2021, 02:23:10 AM »
Lost all respect for Jack Nicklouse when he endorsed Trump for President in Ohio. Hurts the image of golf when a face of the sport sells out. :P


Seems like Nicklaus is going to be a big problem for the game going forward.


Hopefully he gets kicked out of the world golf hall of fame pretty soon as a sign that the game is not interested in him.  Not sure if Augusta and other clubs will give him the boot too but it would be nice to see.


He should no longer referred to as Mr Nicklaus outside of court either.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2021, 04:08:28 AM »
Now we’ve got onto the subject we need to acknowledge the single most destructive influence on the reputation and image of the game golf in 500 years...


...Donald Trump.

Sam Andrews

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2021, 07:11:45 AM »

Perhaps we should burn his books too...


It is fine to disagree with his politics but to advocate the eradication of his place in the game is frankly reprehensible.

Lost all respect for Jack Nicklouse when he endorsed Trump for President in Ohio. Hurts the image of golf when a face of the sport sells out. :P


Seems like Nicklaus is going to be a big problem for the game going forward.


Hopefully he gets kicked out of the world golf hall of fame pretty soon as a sign that the game is not interested in him.  Not sure if Augusta and other clubs will give him the boot too but it would be nice to see.


He should no longer referred to as Mr Nicklaus outside of court either.
He's the hairy handed gent, who ran amok in Kent.

Mike Sweeney

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2021, 08:20:22 AM »
The best thing for golf would be if no one was talking about it.

The game would be better off if it was like, say, checkers or bowling -- with millions of people happily playing it well under the radar, with nary a single television broadcast or voluminous writings or endless podcasts out there to promote it and 'grow the game'.

98% agreement!!

I was a fan of Queens Gambit (chess) on Netflix, because it reminded me of the pre-$$$ days of golf. I will always appreciate the talent of Professional Golfers, especially this week as I like watching Kapalua every year.

That said, too much money takes the fun/enjoyment/specialness out of pretty much everything. But I do like:

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike_Young

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2021, 09:46:21 AM »
IMHO golf is just fine.  The golf BUSINESS has done all they can to squeeze every dollar they can from the sport but this new generation of golfers sees thru that.  If communities can provide good privately owned , open to the public venues that are perceived as value then all will be good.  In the case of golf, perception is not really reality.  I do think the American private club model in most cities across the US will change.  That segment is changing.  The more people we can send to a Bandon or Sand Valley the quicker the perception can change.  It's all about the edges...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim Martin

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2021, 10:07:44 AM »
I do think the American private club model in most cities across the US will change.  That segment is changing.  The more people we can send to a Bandon or Sand Valley the quicker the perception can change.  It's all about the edges...


Mike-I played with a variety of Millennials and Generation Z’s this year who would rather pony up to go on one or two bucket list trips a year than pay monthly country club dues. I don’t think the aspiration that many boomers and Generation Xer’s have to join private clubs is nearly as prevalent with the younger guys.





Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2021, 10:40:46 AM »
I have to say that after the events of the week that I have not been concerned about golf's image. There are other "hallowed" places that are constructed out of bricks, mortar, and marble.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Rob Marshall

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2021, 10:44:16 AM »
Lost all respect for Jack Nicklouse when he endorsed Trump for President in Ohio. Hurts the image of golf when a face of the sport sells out. :P


Seems like Nicklaus is going to be a big problem for the game going forward.


Hopefully he gets kicked out of the world golf hall of fame pretty soon as a sign that the game is not interested in him.  Not sure if Augusta and other clubs will give him the boot too but it would be nice to see.


He should no longer referred to as Mr Nicklaus outside of court either.




That's what makes this country great. You can use your freedom of speech to attack someone for theirs..........I mean the Nicklaus family hasn't done anything for anyone but themselves right?   https://nchcf.org/
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Mike_Young

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2021, 10:49:51 AM »
Lost all respect for Jack Nicklouse when he endorsed Trump for President in Ohio. Hurts the image of golf when a face of the sport sells out. :P


Seems like Nicklaus is going to be a big problem for the game going forward.


Hopefully he gets kicked out of the world golf hall of fame pretty soon as a sign that the game is not interested in him.  Not sure if Augusta and other clubs will give him the boot too but it would be nice to see.


He should no longer referred to as Mr Nicklaus outside of court either.




That's what makes this country great. You can use your freedom of speech to attack someone for theirs..........I mean the Nicklaus family hasn't done anything for anyone but themselves right?   https://nchcf.org/
Rob,The only issue I have with your post is that you acknowledged the comments of these dudes...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Carl Rogers

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Re: The image of golf - improving or worsening or no change?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2021, 02:38:41 PM »
Could someone with more gravitas start a thread that discusses "grow the game" within the various stakeholders?


It seems the phrase is getting very loaded and is more than just trying to introduce youngsters to the game.  Being a golfer, given it's time commitment, golf is a life style decision.


Isn't JN involved & committed to a lot of charities?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 02:48:42 PM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

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