[Kevin Pallier]

From what you've seen: What are his Top3 original designs? (by rating) What are his Bottom3 original designs? (by rating)
 
Please explain why you came to same.
 
My sample size is relatively small and limited to 8 OD’s


EDIT: Updated to include list of OD's (incl. collaborations)


Australia & NZ
Barnbougle [Dunes]
St. Andrews Beach [Gunnamatta]
The National [Gunnamatta]
Cape Kidnappers [NZ]
Tara Iti [NZ]
 
China
Simapo Island {NLE}
 
France
Grand Saint-Emillonais
 
Scotland
Renaissance Club
 
USA
Aetna Springs {NLE}
Apache Stronghold
Atlantic City
Ballyneal
Bandon [Old Macdonald]
Bandon [Pacific Dunes]
Beechtree {NLE}
Black Forest
Charlotte {NLE}
CommonGround
Dismal River [ Red]
Forest Dunes [The Loop]
High Pointe Golf Club {NLE}
Lost Dunes
Medinah (No. 1)
Quail Crossing
Riverfront
Rock Creek Cattle Company
Sebonack
Stoatin Brae
Stone Eagle
Stonewall [North]
Stonewall [Old]
Streamsong [ Blue]
Texas Tech University [Rawls]
The Legends [Heathlands]
The Sheep Ranch {NLE}
The Village Club of Sands Point
Tumble Creek
 
Mexico
Bahia de los Suenos {NLE}

Top3
Pacific Dunes 10: amazing routing and collection of holes. I love the multiple transitions to the ocean and back inland.
Barnbougle Dunes 9: a course that allows a lot of creativity and options to the green and on it / around it.
Cape Kidnappers 8:  great routing / width and use of natural features. Rather than go straight to the ocean the course takes you on a journey to it.
PS: I have not seen Tara I

Bottom3 = one given my sample size
Sebonack 6:  The routing doesn’t seem to flow as well as some other Doak courses I’ve seen. I’m not sure if the combined collaboration with Nicklaus had something to do with it. Some of the greens were also too wild for mine.

[Andrew Harvie]

I've honestly never played a bad Doak course, but I've only played a few. This year with the border being closed from Canada really hurt me this year from getting to others, but I liked all 5 I've played


Pacific - 10
Cattle Co - 9
Apache Stronghold - 7
Rawls - 6
CommonGround - 6

[Brent Carlson]

Here are my top 3 favorite Doaks:




Pacific Dunes: 10 - One of the best courses of the last 50 years
Ballyneal: 9 - Love the green complexes
High Pointe: 8 - One of my favorite courses and I'm saddened that it's NLE.  Loved the juxtaposition of the front and back nines.  Loved the minimalist nature and the green complexes.  Really liked the sandy soil and routing.  The back nine was special playing through the northern Michigan landscape.  18 wasn't great but I really miss this course.  It could have still been top 100 if maintained properly. 




Dismal Red: 7 - When your bottom three courses include Doak 7s that says a lot.  Dismal red is a strong course but not in my top 3.
Tumble Creek: 7 - Beautiful mountain course.  Very walkable and the last few are better than people say.
Common Ground: 6 - Great course, great cause.  Just what public golf needs.



Restoration wise:


#1 - Bel Air.  Bunkering, width, scale, options
#2 - Pasa. One of my favorite courses anywhere

[Tom_Doak]

Sebonack 6:  The routing doesn’t seem to flow as well as some other Doak courses I’ve seen. I’m not sure if the combined collaboration with Nicklaus had something to do with it.

The routing of Sebonack is 100% mine; the one change Jack made [the position of the 6th green] was actually my original position, but I had moved it because I expected he would think it was too cramped.  There are a couple of long walks but I really like the way it moves around the property.

[Mike Worth]

I haven't played enough Doak courses to warrant publishing a top-anything list.  But -- Beechtree in Aberdeen MD, NLE, was a lot of fun.  Would be between a 7 and 8 on the Doak scale.  I played it about 6-7 times and I thought it was better than Bulle Rock. 


Years after the course closed, a friend who was in the know told me that the developer/owner had always intended that Beechtree was a short-term course that would ultimately be sold to a developer to build housing. 

[David Wuthrich]

I have not played a worst Doak course!  They are all special in their own way.  Some I like better than others, but I would not classify any as worst!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Sebonack 6:  The routing doesn’t seem to flow as well as some other Doak courses I’ve seen. I’m not sure if the combined collaboration with Nicklaus had something to do with it.

The routing of Sebonack is 100% mine; the one change Jack made [the position of the 6th green] was actually my original position, but I had moved it because I expected he would think it was too cramped.  There are a couple of long walks but I really like the way it moves around the property.

Tom-
  Can you elaborate as to why you think you were (I assume) asked to collaborate with Nicklaus? At the time that Sebonack was being developed, you had Pac Dunes, Balleyneal, Stone Eagle, Lost Dunes, Stonewall & other under your belt. Did Nicklaus have a connection with Mr. Pascucci or was it maybe for marketing? You really haven't done that type of collaboration since.

[Nigel Islam]

Best:
1. Ballyneal-The course flows very well, and just sits into the terrain so well. The green complexes are really good.
2. Barnbougle Dunes-The most challenging Doak course I’ve played. The bunkering is so well placed. The par 3s are quite good.
3. St. Andrews Beach-The course is so much different than BBDunes, but the use of the terrain is exquisite. I feel as if this would have been a more challenging routing to come up with, but it fits together really well.


Worst: Quail Crossing-The drainage is really bad, and of course conditioning has been an issue. The elements of Renaissance’s talent can be seen tantalizingly hidden beneath the ownership problems and proximity to a really good Fazio offering. It definitely fits into the category of “What could have been.” Heck they even removed the hole names from the scorecard. Who doesn’t want to play a hole named “Shinnecock” in Booneville, IN?

[jeffwarne]

Sebonack 6:  The routing doesn’t seem to flow as well as some other Doak courses I’ve seen. I’m not sure if the combined collaboration with Nicklaus had something to do with it.

The routing of Sebonack is 100% mine; the one change Jack made [the position of the 6th green] was actually my original position, but I had moved it because I expected he would think it was too cramped.  There are a couple of long walks but I really like the way it moves around the property.

Tom-
  Can you elaborate as to why you think you were (I assume) asked to collaborate with Nicklaus? At the time that Sebonack was being developed, you had Pac Dunes, Balleyneal, Stone Eagle, Lost Dunes, Stonewall & other under your belt. Did Nicklaus have a connection with Mr. Pascucci or was it maybe for marketing? You really haven't done that type of collaboration since.

Jack was Pascucci's neighbor and was on board first, so it was kind've the other way around.
I happen to love Sebonack!
Having played 9 Doak Courses(I think) I would have a hard time ranking them.
I loved Heathland back in the early 90's(was recommended by Rich Spear and "Shooter" before I knew who Tom Doak was) and thought it was a really good approximation of the links golf I had been introduced to a few years earlier, especially given the site,area, budget and time period.
Hard to not have Tara Iti, Pacific and Barnbougle near the top given the sites, but Heathland will always have a soft spot on my heart and I had a blast playing National Gunnamata and St. Andrew's Beach(would like to see the start and finish nearer the clubhouse!!!), and it would be hard to quibble with Streamsong Blue or The Renaissance Club.(I will say I liked the blend of seaside, woodland and open look-not seen it since the massive clearing)


So I have neither a Top 3 or bottom 3 as I believe each course and project are site and and client specific.

[Steve Lang]

I have not played a worst Doak course!  They are all special in their own way.  Some I like better than others, but I would not classify any as worst!

Yep, What David said...

*  Wilderness Black Forest (Past summer camp Home of Unfinished Business, 15 min away, played before it opened and after it closed, was easy to hop over from the Valley Course)
*  High Pointe (Played every year it was open, such a shame its NLE, still looking to get out on what's left of back 9, via Palmer Rd two track)
*  Ballyneal (One play is not enough, but 100 Holes in a Day? Only for some!)
*  Dismal Red (Discovery golf in the Sand Hills, extraordinary)
*  Pacific Dunes (What you see isn't what you get high adventure)
*  Old Mac (Will probably never play NGLA, who cares with this course available)
*  Streamsong Blue (From the first tee, game on!)
** The Loop (Red & Black, seemingly infinite fun, and its only getting better (45 minutes from summer camp)
*  Memorial Park (A walk in the Park delight from the proper tees, very much worth the wait for a tee time opening, very cool improvements, couldn't be happier to have this course 45 min away, and what used to be 10 min from work)




Tom Doak, has Dean Hamrick called yet???

[Tom_Doak]

Tom-
  Can you elaborate as to why you think you were (I assume) asked to collaborate with Nicklaus? At the time that Sebonack was being developed, you had Pac Dunes, Balleyneal, Stone Eagle, Lost Dunes, Stonewall & other under your belt. Did Nicklaus have a connection with Mr. Pascucci or was it maybe for marketing? You really haven't done that type of collaboration since.

Anthony:


Michael was a longtime friend of Jack's, a founding member of The Bear's Club, and, at that time, his next-door neighbor.  Everyone assumed that Jack would do the golf course; his company had already started doing routings for the property.


I was very surprised to get a call about it, and my first question was, isn't Jack under contract already?  And the explanation was that no, he wasn't, and the routings they had been doing were not very exciting, so Michael asked his project manager to look for someone else to take a crack at it, and a bunch of people had recommended me.


After I'd gotten to know Michael a little, he suggested that I collaborate with Jack on the design.  I assumed Jack would never go for that, and Michael would have to choose between us, but he was able to convince us to work together instead.  Jack was certainly not there just for marketing; he made more site visits for Sebonack than anything else he was working on in 2004-05.  In the end, we got along well, and disagreed a lot less than most people would believe, but it was pretty awkward for all of the people who worked for the two of us, who had to take a couple of steps back from their usual jobs.




I've actually collaborated quite a few times in my career:  with Jay Sigel at Stonewall, with Michael Clayton at Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach, and with Brooks Koepka [and Mike Nuzzo] at Memorial Park.


But it's difficult to include someone else because I am used to working so closely with my long-time associates who are doing the shaping . . . normally it's just me and them, and putting anyone else in between will cause friction.  Really, all of my projects are collaborations with them, first and foremost.  So I'm less likely now to pursue a collaboration than before.  [Apart from the one I signed up for over the holidays, which I can't talk about    [size=78%]].[/size]

[Tom_Doak]

3. St. Andrews Beach-The course is so much different than BBDunes, but the use of the terrain is exquisite. I feel as if this would have been a more challenging routing to come up with, but it fits together really well.


Worst: Quail Crossing-The drainage is really bad, and of course conditioning has been an issue. The elements of Renaissance’s talent can be seen tantalizingly hidden beneath the ownership problems and proximity to a really good Fazio offering. It definitely fits into the category of “What could have been.” Heck they even removed the hole names from the scorecard. Who doesn’t want to play a hole named “Shinnecock” in Booneville, IN?

Actually St. Andrews Beach was one of the easiest routings I've ever done; I had nearly all the holes sorted out before I ever saw the land.  Getting it off the ground was not as easy!


I hear that Quail Crossing is currently a mess, and that's too bad because I actually liked the routing, and I did shape a few of the greens there myself.  I wouldn't say that's my worst design, but if it is, I haven't done too badly!




P.S.  Also, as I noted in GETTING TO 18, Quail Crossing was my first job in 2.5 years, after a couple of other projects had fallen through and my company was at its lowest ebb.  If it hadn't been for that job, I might not have gotten the chance to do any of the others named here!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom-
  Can you elaborate as to why you think you were (I assume) asked to collaborate with Nicklaus? At the time that Sebonack was being developed, you had Pac Dunes, Balleyneal, Stone Eagle, Lost Dunes, Stonewall & other under your belt. Did Nicklaus have a connection with Mr. Pascucci or was it maybe for marketing? You really haven't done that type of collaboration since.

Anthony:


Michael was a longtime friend of Jack's, a founding member of The Bear's Club, and, at that time, his next-door neighbor.  Everyone assumed that Jack would do the golf course; his company had already started doing routings for the property.


I was very surprised to get a call about it, and my first question was, isn't Jack under contract already?  And the explanation was that no, he wasn't, and the routings they had been doing were not very exciting, so Michael asked his project manager to look for someone else to take a crack at it, and a bunch of people had recommended me.


After I'd gotten to know Michael a little, he suggested that I collaborate with Jack on the design.  I assumed Jack would never go for that, and Michael would have to choose between us, but he was able to convince us to work together instead.  Jack was certainly not there just for marketing; he made more site visits for Sebonack than anything else he was working on in 2004-05.  In the end, we got along well, and disagreed a lot less than most people would believe, but it was pretty awkward for all of the people who worked for the two of us, who had to take a couple of steps back from their usual jobs.




I've actually collaborated quite a few times in my career:  with Jay Sigel at Stonewall, with Michael Clayton at Barnbougle and St. Andrews Beach, and with Brooks Koepka [and Mike Nuzzo] at Memorial Park.


But it's difficult to include someone else because I am used to working so closely with my long-time associates who are doing the shaping . . . normally it's just me and them, and putting anyone else in between will cause friction.  Really, all of my projects are collaborations with them, first and foremost.  So I'm less likely now to pursue a collaboration than before.  [Apart from the one I signed up for over the holidays, which I can't talk about  [size=78%]].[/size]

Appreciate the detailed response. Its no secret that many times a "collaboration" benefits one side more then the next or for marketing reasons. I totally see working with your own team as they are probably viewed as an extension of you & some of your ideas.

[Tom_Doak]

Appreciate the detailed response. Its no secret that many times a "collaboration" benefits one side more then the next or for marketing reasons. I totally see working with your own team as they are probably viewed as an extension of you & some of your ideas.

Yes.  At the same time, we enjoyed having Brooks Koepka consult on the project in Houston, partly because I could tell him straight up how he could really help, without getting in the way of our process.  [The main trick is to talk through right at the beginning all the ways you'd like the course to be different, and I have gotten a lot better at those discussions.]  We almost had to push him to get into the details, but he was really enthusiastic about the end result.

[Kalen Braley]

I've only played 6, so my number is "perfect". 

My Top 3 are all DS 9s, and in no particular order, because as much as I've tried to rank them in I find it impossible as they are great but so different:
1a) Pacific Dunes
1b) Ballyneal
1c) Rock Creek

Bottom 3:
4)  Tumble Creek - DS 7
5)  Stone Eagle - DS 7
6)  Beechtree (NLE) - DS 5

[Steve Lapper]

I know this isn't a strict answer to the asked question, but I've long wanted to make this kind of distinction.


Quite obviously, an architect with Tom's immense talent isn't likely to have too many dogs and this is certainly the case here. Instead, I want to focus on what I think is the most-underrated "Best" of Tom Doak.


  IMO, Tom's work at Stone Eagle is one of the "Best" for me.  Surely the likes of Tara Iti, Cape Kidnappers, Pac Dunes, and Ballyneal are all better and modern classics. Why Stone Eagle? For many, if not most, it might be their least favorite.


On this almost-inhospitable mountain shoulder, he built perhaps the best modern desert course (post Desert Forest)  I've yet to see. Its routing, green sites and playability is superb. There are strategic lines of charm that emerge after several plays and views backward from green-to-tee. I'm never bored or uninterested there.


I know such a pick might be controversial or at least a serious outlier, yet every other exceptional Doak I've ever played had better, if not near perfect, property to work with.


My least favorite Doak course (and effectively a dichotic opposite of my reasoning for Stone Eagle) is The Renaissance Club. It's still a very good course, yet it feels uninspiring and ordinary on what is near holy turf. Granted it doesn't have the terrain of its historical neighbors, but it isn't too far off and just misses the mark for me.


All of the above are first-world problems for modern golf course architecture.

[Peter Pallotta]

Steve -
that's interesting, because I think it highlights an 'occupational hazard' around here, especially given the number of posters-participants who are architects and rating panelists and/or industry members and media types:
the 'hazard' is that we can sometimes blur the lines between 'great work' and 'great courses', ie between what an architect has managed to achieve on a given site/project with all its many and varied restrictions and limitations ('the work', for insiders) and what an average golfer actually sees and experiences on a given day when he gets to a place knowing little about it and plays it for his first and only time ('the course', for the outsiders).

[Carl Rogers]

Maybe this topic will inspire some of you to make the trek to Suffolk VA and tee it up at Riverfront.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Can’t answer this one so I might pose a side-question, hopefully for Tom to answer:


What is the “worst” site he’s ever worked on? Or maybe the “hardest” (could be different)? Would be interested to know broken in to following:


- Most compact / smallest site (how big?)
- Worst soil / worst natural drainage
- Least interesting topography/ features / vegetation.

[Thomas Dai]

Can’t answer this one so I might pose a side-question, hopefully for Tom to answer:
What is the “worst” site he’s ever worked on? Or maybe the “hardest” (could be different)? Would be interested to know broken in to following:
- Most compact / smallest site (how big?)
- Worst soil / worst natural drainage
- Least interesting topography/ features / vegetation.

Ah, moving towards my comment on Niall's recent thread about James Braid's terrific work on difficult terrain sites with a very small budget.
atb

[Joel_Stewart]

  IMO, Tom's work at Stone Eagle is one of the "Best" for me.  Surely the likes of Tara Iti, Cape Kidnappers, Pac Dunes, and Ballyneal are all better and modern classics. Why Stone Eagle? For many, if not most, it might be their least favorite.

All of the above are first-world problems for modern golf course architecture.

Have to agree that his best are world class.  Stone Eagle is not for the high handicap player.


My least favorite Doak is Lost Dunes in Michigan.  Tough routing with a highway going through it.  Can't remember any signature holes?  Seems like it was penal if you missed it. 

[Jeff Evagues]

Sebonack is the second best course I've ever played, right behind Oakmont. I think its the best on LI and I've played all except Garden City.

[Tom_Doak]

Stone Eagle is not for the high handicap player.

Actually, from the beginning our client said their demographic was 70-year-old guys with money [and their wives, who might not be 70  ], and they wanted to be sure we made the course playable for those guys and there were no carries they'd struggle with.  Which I think we did!  But there are too many deep bunkers for Tom Huckaby's dad, as I recall.


I really think the place might have done better if we'd made it a more difficult course and aimed at the better golfers in the desert, since it was clearly intended as a second club for most -- but I do love going back there.  I could play that course a lot of days in a row before I got bored.

[John Kavanaugh]

I doubt that a course with few remaining lots that remains open is worse than at least one that is closed.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm a High Capper and didn't think it was burdensome at all.

Other than a few forced carries I thought it was very playable for most. The majority of the challenge as I recall was was getting out of position around the greens and then putts being super quick and trying to figure out the break.

P.S.  And walking it in the summer heat...well that's just not a task I would try.

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