[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
I will take the clever part of making an argument as a compliment, however, I will beg to differ about using false or self serving reasoning to do it 😊


I don’t know about you but I choke when I hear the commentators these days talk about “penalty areas”.  For goodness sakes, call them what they are!  If you are in the water you are in the water.  If you are in a bunker you are in a bunker.  If you are up against a rock wall you are up against a rock wall (but they have to call that one an “immovable obstruction”).


My point isn’t whether a feature is an official “penalty area” or whatever they want to call it, it is about those kind of features that add interest and challenge to the golf hole. 


You can call that knob or that 2” mound whatever pleases you.  All I know is if I don’t do something special when I have to deal with it, it will probably cost me a shot 😉

[Ira Fishman]

Ira,
I will take the clever part of making an argument as a compliment, however, I will beg to differ about using false or self serving reasoning to do it 😊


I don’t know about you but I choke when I hear the commentators these days talk about “penalty areas”.  For goodness sakes, call them what they are!  If you are in the water you are in the water.  If you are in a bunker you are in a bunker.  If you are up against a rock wall you are up against a rock wall (but they have to call that one an “immovable obstruction”).


My point isn’t whether a feature is an official “penalty area” or whatever they want to call it, it is about those kind of features that add interest and challenge to the golf hole. 


You can call that knob or that 2” mound whatever pleases you.  All I know is if I don’t do something special when I have to deal with it, it will probably cost me a shot 😉

It was not a compliment. Choosing your own metrics and definitions to try to make your point nullifies any rational discourse.


Ira

[Mark_Fine]

No worries Ira.  Keep studying GCA 😊
Can I recommend a good book 

[mike_beene]

How many great holes does a great course have? Can you have too many?

[Thomas Dai]

Would 'obstruction' rather than 'hazard' perhaps be a better term in the context of the thread title and OP?
atb

[Mark_Fine]

Thomas,
It is not just obstructions but use whatever term you like.  Tom Doak called “short grass” one of the best hazards and I agree but those who don’t really understand GCA would never call it that and that is fine.  The point of the thread is that on the greatest holes there is ALWAYS some distinct or memorable feature that makes it special and most of the time it is some kind of hazard (or whatever you want to call it - penalty area, obstruction, mound, hollow, OB, wall, lake, stream, ocean, tree, building,...). We sometimes forget golf was all about circumventing hazardous challenges and trying to get the ball in a hole in the least amount of strokes.  The best holes were the ones that presented the best test and the most interest.  But I am sure we will debate that as well 😊

[SL_Solow]

Mark,  the announcers who refer to penalty areas are merely adapting to the terminology in the Rules of Golf.  Whether you like the changes or not, it is hard to criticize them for being accurate.  Of course a sand bunker is not a penalty area so they don't use that term.  Nor is an area of short grass except in very rare cases.  So the term is useful in describing a golf course and a competition.  If your point is merely that it is difficult to find a great hole that lacks an interesting "problem" to solve, and that the problem is almost invariably caused by an obstacle to overcome, I suspect that few of us could disagree.  The discussion centers around what types of obstacles make a hole "great" in a particular context.  Accordingly, sand, water , topography all can be part of greatness.  Is prevailing wind something you would consider?  How do the various obstacles interact?  Can several less than "great" obstacles combine to make a great hole?  The question presented is both too simple and too vague.

[Mark_Fine]

SL,
All great points.  Just think of your 10 favorite holes and think about what makes them great.  It could be a combination of things.  There are no right or wrong answers or pass fail grade.  Just a simple question.  My opinion is I doubt anyone will come up with too many examples where there is no problem to solve or no challenge to take on or overcome.  I wrote a book on Hazards so I am of course bias    I think hazards are the essence of golf 

[SL_Solow]

So now that we are largely in agreement would you agree that an outstanding green might be enough to create sufficient challenge to make a hole great?  This might be particularly true of a par 3 which might have run of the mill bunkering but a particularly interesting green.


As an aside, I am sure that you have seen Alec Bauer's 2013 work (since republished) entitled Hazards with essays by Mackenzie and Colt along with contributions by Bauer and others.  What do you think?  Some great pictures of a time when hazards were really hazards.   

[Mark_Fine]

SL,
Yes we are in agreement.  As we both know, there are greens out there (I am sure you played The Old Course at St. Andrew's) where you can be on the green and have zero chance to get near the hole with your next shot.  You are effectively in a hazard (or in a very hazardous area for those who only want to use the term in it's purest sense).  The 16th hole at Pasatiempo is one example where I think the defining factor is that multi-tiered green.  Depending on where you are on that green and where the pin is, you can have little chance to get close on your next shot.  A good player knows that and will treat parts of that green depending on the hole location as effectively being in jail if they end up there (AKA - screwed) 


And yes I have read Alec Bauer's book.  I have a copy from 1913 as well as copy no. 394 of the limited addition of reprints.  Forrest and I did research on hazards from all over the world for almost three years in compiling and writing our Bunkers, Pits, & other Hazards book.  It was fun but also a ton of work.  It wasn't written for the money (you don't make any on golf architecture books), it was written for the passion and for the good of the game.  In the book we even have a chapter on the Psychological Effects of Hazards.  Many people find that one quite interesting and thought provoking.  In that section is a quote from Robert Hunter:


"Hazards make golf dramatic; and the thrills that come to one who ventures wisely and succeeds are truly delectable.  Without hazards golf would be a dull sport, with the life and soul gone out of it.  No longer would it attract the lusty and adventurous, but would be left to those who favor some form of insipid perambulation, suited to the effeminate and senile"   

[Thomas Dai]

Terrain that seems flat or level and totally featureless to the naked eye can be ‘hazardous’ or awkward or whatever as well .... “hire the village idiot and tell him to make it flat” and all that.
And who amongst us has eyes that are so perfect as to be able to read even short putts on apparently flat level ground or has a putting stroke sufficiently accurate and repeatable to consistently hole putts over a putting surface that contains micro imperfections and is constantly effected by the likes of sunshine and shade, wind, sword growth, moisture etc etc?
Atb

[Mark_Fine]

Thomas,
You are correct in your description.  Forrest and I called our book on hazards a book about inconveniences.  We also stated that unlike those unpleasant interruptions in life such as when we bite into a sour strawberry or encounter a pothole that costs us an expensive new tire, the interruptions and inconveniences we cover in the book lead a dual life.  While they are inconvenient on the surface, they are essential to the core.  They force decisions.  The correct routes will bring triumph and even fame.  The bad choices will bring ruin and even long-term fears.  The risky paths, whether conquered or failed, intensify the experience.  Hazards are the heart and soul of the game of golf and they come in all shapes, sizes, configurations, and definitions

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