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Mark_Fine

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What level of playing competency is necessary?
« on: October 11, 2020, 10:54:18 PM »

Right or wrong, I have often compared ski resorts to golf courses.  The “playing fields” as I sometimes call them (where golfing takes place and skiing take place) are always different as no two are exactly alike.  Some are natural and some are man-made.


Someone once told me that you have to be a fairly competent skier to really appreciate the best ski resorts (he was referring to the ski trails/slopes).  Does the same logic apply to being able to appreciate and recoginze the best golf courses? 


Let’s face it, golf course architects do their best to try to make their designs interesting for most levels of golfers.  But we all know that you can’t always build in the same level of interest and strategy from every set of tees. On some cape holes for example, some of the more forward tees might not even have any forced carry and play more as a straight hole with a lateral hazard.  We all could list dozens of examples of where the strategy, interest, sight lines,... are totally different from the various sets of tees.  And some architects gravitate toward their own skill sets in their designs.  Nicklaus did that early on until he realized not everyone is Jack Nicklaus and he needed to be more accommodating to a wider level of players.  I know Tom Doak is a great putter which might influence the challenge he designs into his green complexes.  I have heard on some of his courses members don’t talk about how many three putts they had, they talk about how many four or five putts they finished with 😊


I know I have gone around courses with committee members trying to explain design ideas and course features and have seen many people shaking their heads when I talk about playing angles, width, green contours, deception,.., etc.  I’ve had members say to me, “Mark my goal when I play this hole is to finish it with the same golf ball. I am just trying to hit it anywhere on the fairway and anywhere on the green.” 


So back to my question, while their will always be some exceptions (some great architects were not great golfers) is their a certain level of playing competence necessary to recognize the best golf courses from the merely good ones?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2020, 12:39:04 AM »
I would say knowledge is the factor in the recognition, not playing ability. I can serve on the green committee with scratch golfers that want to place bunkers solely to penalize the shots of weaker players, others want bunkers solely for eye candy, and yet others that think trees are for creating narrow corridors that they can manage better than others, etc.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark_Fine

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Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2020, 02:38:21 AM »
Garland,
I tend to agree with you.  I run into that situation a lot where some committee members want things changed or designed around their own game as that is what they know.  I also find at times that the best golfers seem to know it all.  Many are all about “fairness” because they are so focused on score.  I also agree if you are knowledgeable about all aspects of GCA, it probably doesn’t matter how well you can actually play.  But as we all know, not many golfers are GCA addicts like those of us participating in this site. So I go back to the comment my friend who is the skier made - does he have a valid point?  I am a decent skier but I know I would have to mostly snowplow down many single or double black diamond slopes (or slide down on my ass)  :)  and I might struggle to get up if falling on a slope with five feet of powder (been there done that)!  Can you really appreciate just how good the whole ski mountain is if you can’t really or don’t want to experience all parts of it especially the top trails?


Just like my statement about golfers who simply are trying to finish holes with the same ball.  Are they really concerned about design strategy and the details that separate great from good?


I honestly think it is a fair question to ponder.  I believe you definitely need to know the game of golf to identify a good from a great golf course but can it also help to play the game at least at a certain level?  My wife (and many golfers from the old golf league I used to play in would hate and have no fun playing Pine Valley) because they would not finish holes and/or run out of balls.  I am not sure most would recognize it as one of the greatest golf courses on the planet? 




Sean_A

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Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2020, 06:16:46 AM »
I think the only level of playing competence required is to understand the game at a basic level. I am admittedly dubious about declarations of best course this and that. To me that kind of thing doesn't matter except for list makers and marketing. What matters is what one likes and that is a different concept to what one thinks is best...at least for me it is.

To me best of is more of a concensus opinion which then creates a canon. Golf certainly has this element to it and the ranking lists are evidence of this. There is all sorts of tooing and froing, but the lists are more similar than not, especially at the top end. But that doesn't mean there aren't 200 good candidates for the 75 to 100 spots. Even a canon needs outlier opinions to keep things honest.

Lists are about trying to separate greatness from, well, greatness. I say greatness is over rated.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2020, 07:48:58 AM »
I think skiing is a bad analogy. I can go to a ski resort, and put myself at anyplace I choose on the ski runs. Having done that, there is not much reason to return other than aesthetics, and amenities. I can't do that in golf, so the challenge is new each time.

In skiing, to not be able to ski to every place you want to takes some insanely difficult runs. So it seems your analogy to skiing is trying to say the greatest courses (skiing or golf) are the most difficult, which kind of explains why scratch golfers want to up the difficulty for others not as talented as themselves.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2020, 08:11:38 AM »
Garland,
It is not just difficulty but granted that is part of it.  Much of what defines great skiing is the beauty of the setting, the challenge of the mountain, the variety of the slopes, the interesting terrain, the conditions, ..., doesn’t that sound a lot like what makes for a great golf course? And no two Mountains are ever the same just like no two golf courses are ever the same. But if a skier only stays on the bunny slopes can that skier gauge how great the place is? 


I played with a very nice gentleman last week who was really trying to study the golf course but often dribbled balls off the tee or hit a 160 yard slices into the woods.  He was also in a cart so how he could take in the design and strategy presented by the architect and review a golf course I have no idea? 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 09:38:42 AM by Mark_Fine »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2020, 09:31:01 AM »
I think Garland is correct. If one is interested in architecture and invests some time in learning about it, level of competency at the game itself is not particularly critical. Undoubtedly, Pine Valley is too difficult for my game, but I am quite sure that I could appreciate the design. The skiing analogy is interesting but not quite apt. Losing a ball and breaking a bone are two very different things.


The reality is that very few golfers care much about architecture. They enjoy the game and they probably enjoy the scenery, but they are not out there to think much about the architecture other than the hazard in front of them. That is fine by me because they are supporting the game.


Ira

Jim Sherma

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Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2020, 09:45:20 AM »
Mark - In my opinion I think the bar to really be able to engage with architecture is much higher than most will ever like to admit to. I've been between a 3 and a 7 handicap for the past 40 years and have broken par in tournaments numerous times. Still there have only been a few glimpses of what the truly good ball strikers must experience in terms of how they engage with architecture. By this  I mean being able to do the following with a good expectation of success:


  • Control the ball sufficiently to really strategize a hole from the pin back to the tee box
  • To be able to control the spin of approach shots sufficiently to use back stops and kick plates appropriately

One of the real eye-opening moments of my golf life was overhearing Lee Trevino and Herman Mitchell discussing the third green of Saucon's Old course during a practice round for the 1992 Senior Open. Trevino was pointing at pin placements and then discussing various landing spots and types of spin necessary to access the pins given the slopes. I quickly realized how different the game was that they were thinking let alone playing.


While it is true that we all are interacting with the course regardless of ability, the ability to proactively interact with architecture requires a very high skill level.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2020, 09:49:22 AM »
In some ways the skiing analogy can work. When I go to Colorado for a month I will ski with my son and granddaughters. Sometimes we ski Arapahoe Basin. My grandchildren learned to ski there. It has some of the most mellow trails in Summit County. It also has some of the gnarliest runs in Colorado. My son takes me to Palavicini and some of the other scary trails. To date my Granddaughter have yet to ski the double blacks. They can only appreciate the blue groomers. If we took them down those trails they would just try to survive.


A course like Galloway National or Pine Valley appeals more to the better player. For a blue groomer golfer he is just trying to survive. Hidden Creek on the other hand is more enjoyable for a higher handicapper. He can negotiate the course and isn't as terrifying for him, until he gets to the greens. I have taken a friend to Both GN and HC. He is an eighteen. He missed many of the shot values at GN but did at HC. Expertise does help in evaluating a course.




Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2020, 10:25:59 AM »
To Mark's central question, and a little to Sean's point as well, I always wonder what it really means to "recognize the best courses from the merely good ones."


We're all capable of evaluating what we like and don't like, and there are no right or wrong answers there. A hypothetical 30 handicapper who shows up at Pine Valley, gets his ass kicked, and walks away calling it the worst course he's ever played is totally entitled to that opinion. And upon hearing it, I would know never to listen to his recommendations on any golf course, ever.


Which is really all that it means to "recognize the best courses from the merely good ones," or to "understand architecture," right? Goal #1 is to understand what I like and don't like. And there's good reason for me to put some effort into that - it helps me make the best decisions for myself about where to play any given round. Goal #2 is to build enough credibility that others might listen to my recommendations.


There are plenty of higher handicappers whose recommendations I listen to closely. But all else being equal, I'm a lot more likely to listen to the recommendation of a decent player than a poor player. The guy who can execute a strategy with some regularity has a big advantage over the guy who can't when it comes to assessing, attempting, and evaluating different strategic options. The guy who can read a green well and understand how it would react with different types of shots has a big advantage when it comes to understanding how that green and its complex function as a design component.


Really, the guy with the biggest leg up on the rest of us when it comes to understanding architecture is probably the older guy who was once a very strong player, but has lost swing speed and gained some strokes on their handicap over the years. He knows how to score, he knows how to navigate risk/reward scenarios, and he also understands what it is to play with some limitations on his ability.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2020, 10:51:08 AM »
A slight aside perhaps but worth considering - "The hardest and most time consuming aspects of being a golf course architect are?" -

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67141.msg1611769.html#msg1611769

Not sure where level of personal skill at hitting a little ball with a long stick comes in relation to the other factors highlighted in this referenced thread. Marketing hype/name credibility maybe?

atb

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2020, 10:51:34 AM »
Concur with Messrs. Sherma and Williamsen mostly, though appreciation and recognition (as Sean A implies, I think) are highly subjective and affected by numerous factors including but not limited to the ability to hit the ball.  Depth and breadth of experience, possessing a good memory, a strong interest in the subject matter, and a system to be able to compare and contrast the information are all key.


I may have mentioned in passing to Dr. Klein or his then right hand man Jon Cummings that it would be interesting to collect each evaluator's handicap and the course rating (e.g. 70.3) and slope from which they rated the course.  Through many conversations over the years, I developed the impression that higher handicap golfers marked up courses which featured width and more complicated green complexes while those with lower handicaps did the opposite, favoring longer, tighter, abundantly bunkered layouts. 


For the most part, this seems to also be the case on this site.  I have my own definition of what "best courses" is, which is likely at odds with many if not most participants on this site.  As someone noted a long time ago, most of us have mates whose recommendations on courses we trust.  Mine tend to be golfers who can presently or at some time hit a large variety of shots.  Like my JV basketball coach once told me more than 50 years ago after I fouled him out of a game against the alumni, "you ref like you play".  It was not a compliment.

Kalen Braley

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Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2020, 10:52:36 AM »
So I go back to the comment my friend who is the skier made - does he have a valid point?  I am a decent skier but I know I would have to mostly snowplow down many single or double black diamond slopes (or slide down on my ass)  :)  and I might struggle to get up if falling on a slope with five feet of powder (been there done that)!  Can you really appreciate just how good the whole ski mountain is if you can’t really or don’t want to experience all parts of it especially the top trails?


Mark,

Great question for sure.  However, I'm not sure if this part is accurate.  On a tough golf course the mid and high cappers are interfacing far more parts of the course on a difficult track than is the low capper.  High Rough, bunkers, water, etc, the lesser golfer is certainly "experiencing" more of it first hand.  ;)

Quote
So back to my question, while their will always be some exceptions (some great architects were not great golfers) is their a certain level of playing competence necessary to recognize the best golf courses from the merely good ones?

If we came up with a list of the best 25 golf course architects of all time, how many of them were great players?  I suspect the number who weren't would far outnumber the ones who were.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2020, 10:54:50 AM »
Perhaps the question is if a great design should only be judged by how it would play for the very best golfers.  99% of golfers are not at the very top level of the game so how the course design works for the very best players may not be the best way for it to be judged.  How many of the very best courses can only be played by the very best players - there should always be a way for most players to be able to play and enjoy the course.  Sure, some courses will be far more difficult than others but so what - that's what the game is all about but it doesn't mean that the lesser player cannot play the course.  I just wonder how many members that architects have consulted with really understood what the architect was trying to achieve or why it is important.  But to the initial question the answer should be someone who is serious about playing the game and is viewing a course with an open mind.  A player may only be able to play to a 20 handicap but that number alone does not decide their competence in understanding golf course architecture. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2020, 10:58:50 AM »
... Losing a ball and breaking a bone are two very different things. ...


Careful there. Some of us have had the screws in our leg placed there after breaking it while golfing removed so that they wouldn't cause pain while skiing.
 :-[
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim_Coleman

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Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2020, 11:02:11 AM »
   Is there a top 100 course with a course rating more than .5 below its par or a slope less than 120 from tees set at 6400 yards?  I suspect there are few, if any.  My point - great courses are almost always "difficult."  And mediocre golfers pine to play them.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2020, 11:03:51 AM »
... But if a skier only stays on the bunny slopes can that skier gauge how great the place is?  ...


Golfers don't stay on bunny holes. In fact, many here complain that the poor golfers should stay on the bunny tees.  :P
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2020, 11:04:17 AM »
Mark - In my opinion I think the bar to really be able to engage with architecture is much higher than most will ever like to admit to. I've been between a 3 and a 7 handicap for the past 40 years and have broken par in tournaments numerous times. Still there have only been a few glimpses of what the truly good ball strikers must experience in terms of how they engage with architecture. By this  I mean being able to do the following with a good expectation of success:


  • Control the ball sufficiently to really strategize a hole from the pin back to the tee box
  • To be able to control the spin of approach shots sufficiently to use back stops and kick plates appropriately
One of the real eye-opening moments of my golf life was overhearing Lee Trevino and Herman Mitchell discussing the third green of Saucon's Old course during a practice round for the 1992 Senior Open. Trevino was pointing at pin placements and then discussing various landing spots and types of spin necessary to access the pins given the slopes. I quickly realized how different the game was that they were thinking let alone playing.


While it is true that we all are interacting with the course regardless of ability, the ability to proactively interact with architecture requires a very high skill level.

To me engaging with architecture is a completely different question to assessing architecture. I probably learn more about courses by watching others play. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bernie Bell

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Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2020, 11:11:03 AM »
"Someone once told me that you have to be a fairly competent skier to really appreciate the best ski resorts (he was referring to the ski trails/slopes).  Does the same logic apply to being able to appreciate and recognize the best golf courses?"

Best golf courses  . . . best for what? 


« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 12:13:33 PM by Bernie Bell »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2020, 11:47:35 AM »
Garland,
It is not just difficulty but granted that is part of it.  Much of what defines great skiing is the beauty of the setting,

Beauty has no place in great golf. It may have a significant place in high ratings, but doesn't determine how good the golf course is.

the challenge of the mountain,

Here we are back at difficulty again.

the variety of the slopes,

Most novice golfers can notice variety in golf holes if you make it a criteria they are to look for. If skiers can't get off the bunny slopes they won't have the opportunity to see it.

the interesting terrain,

Most novice golfers can notice interesting terrain in golf holes if you make it a criteria they are to look for. If skiers can't get off the bunny slopes they won't have the opportunity to see it.

the conditions,

IMO great golf doesn't depend on great conditions. It only verifies a course belongs in the category of Veblen goods. ;) However, skiing on portland cement (wet snow near Portland, Oregon) is much different that skiing on Rocky Mountain powder.

..., doesn’t that sound a lot like what makes for a great golf course? And no two Mountains are ever the same just like no two golf courses are ever the same. But if a skier only stays on the bunny slopes can that skier gauge how great the place is? 

It sounds like what makes for a high rated golf course. E.g., Royal Portrush Dunluce has long been a highly rated golf course even with two real snoozer finishing holes. IMO Strandhill was just as good when I played it, but is not highly rated. Even Royal Portrush with its new holes will be no better than Strandhill if Ally gets to finish his changes there IMO
...
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2020, 12:36:12 PM »
Mark,


Great question, and like golf courses themselves, there are many variations among gca's.


I know that I apprenticed with great technical guys, one was a fair artist, but neither knew anything about golf, and they learned what they knew from Robert Bruce Harris, which as we all know, designed for maintenance first.  They tended to follow that path.  And, they every so often made some good technical decisions that were horrible for play.  So, when we first had the opportunity to work with Jim Colbert, I felt it enlightened me a lot, but they mostly refused to incorporate much of what he said good players looked for.....which is why, when I left he chose (among other reasons) to go with me.  And I continued to work with various pros, sometimes just by chance, but learned a bit from every one of them.


Short version....I knew my deficiency as a designer was not understanding what they (good players) look for.  So, I managed to improve my appreciation beyond what KN taught me, or even by what I learned back then from the World Atlas of Golf, by handing with folks who really did know.  By my game, I was qualified to assess the average player, LOL.


A few things were that they didn't really look at green frontal openings as much as all the golden age writing would suggest.  One would rather be on the same side of the fw as the green bunker, so he could aim at the far edge of the green, attempt to bring it back, and have the most margin for error.  Another said having the green front opening allowed him to club down when between clubs, and allow uphill putts.  If coming over a bunker, he hit it harder with more spin to back it to the hole, in essence giving himself the most margin for error distance wise, rather than cross ways.


I guess we have do define the phrase of "appreciating architecture?"  For who?


I find various golfers appreciation of courses seems to fall in line with their handicap.


 - Good golfers comment on hard holes, and holes that "fit the eye."


 - Average golfers comment on beauty most of all, and unusual holes occasionally (usually in the negative, so maybe there is no appreciation there)


 - Poor ones count lost balls. 


And all golfers seem to judge their every day courses as being good if they shoot about their average score.  So, if a course plays about as any level of golfer expects, has some aesthetics and isn't too hard, at least they relate to some portion of the architecture, which does encompass many things.


A related topic, but how good does a golfer have to be to be in this biz?  Or even just play business golf?  I generally believe (perhaps based on where my game usually is) that not hitting ground balls is good enough to leave a favorable enough impression on whoever you are playing with.  My handicap (when I really had one) ranged from 7 to 17 at various points, with the 7 coming after my trip to the Dave Pelz Short Game clinic (Thanks, Dave's guys!)  I hope a 17, with few ground balls but a fair share of stubbed chips and 3 putts is viewed as favorable to potential clients, enough not to dismiss me out of hand.  They seem to understand that virtually no one has enough time to work on the short game.


Lastly, I once was in charge of the ASGCA annual meeting golf tournament.  I don't recall if Forrest ever did it (among the many things he has done for the group over the years) but many think ability to handle that group on the golf course is a good indicator of how they might handle greater responsibilities, LOL.  At any rate, if memory serves, the average handicap of ASGCA members was 26 or something, i.e., average to poor golfers.  A fair number of them rarely played at all.  Some were embarrassed at being so poor, others who formerly played well were embarrassed at not playing as well as they used to.  Among mid century architects, the only one I can recall getting better with age was Larry Packard.  If you count Brad Klein as among the fraternity, he may have made the biggest handicap drop I ever saw, making his "Igolfbadly" email address a bit outdated.   :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2020, 12:56:14 PM »
<snip>
Really, the guy with the biggest leg up on the rest of us when it comes to understanding architecture is probably the older guy who was once a very strong player, but has lost swing speed and gained some strokes on their handicap over the years. He knows how to score, he knows how to navigate risk/reward scenarios, and he also understands what it is to play with some limitations on his ability.


That would be me. Former +2 to +4 with a 108 to 110 driver clubhead speed. Never was a long hitter to begin with and always had to rely on understanding how to play shots. Now as a 0 to +2 with a driver clubhead speed of 95 - 97 mph and a carry of only 220 to 230, I play a completely different game and have come to appreciate architecture more than I ever did before, without doubt.


So you're saying I should become an architect. Nice. ;-)


Peter Pallotta

Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2020, 01:14:04 PM »
Theory:
Long before the average golfer was armed with the Doak Scale, and decades before its namesake was even born, it was only the top-most amateurs and very best professionals (and a tiny number of international/elite critics) who identified and then signalled for the rest of us which courses were great: Bobby Jones came to praise The Old Course, Travis thought the National best of all, Hogan chose to practice at Seminole, Darwin spoke most highly of Lido and Pine Valley etc etc. And those early assessments by the most knowledgeable 'first generation critics' have coloured and influenced absolutely every other critic & scale & rating & analysis & panel that has followed in their wake. So that now, as Sean suggests, greatness is over-rated and all such assessments rather dubious; and, as Tom D often says, rankings are personal and subjective, and are influenced and guided by many not-strictly-architectural factors.
Which is to conclude that, while Mark's question is indeed an excellent one, it is also, nowadays, quite a meaningless one.
End of Theory.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 01:30:29 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2020, 01:15:49 PM »
   Is there a top 100 course with a course rating more than .5 below its par or a slope less than 120 from tees set at 6400 yards?  I suspect there are few, if any.  My point - great courses are almost always "difficult."  And mediocre golfers pine to play them.


There is a wide swath between a course with those metrics and difficult courses. I did not find CPC, any of the courses at Bandon, North Berwick, the courses at Streamsong, PH2, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, or even Royal Dornoch too difficult for my mediocre game. Ballybunion and The Island Club beat me up pretty good but I still was able to appreciate the architecture.


Ira

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What level of playing competency is necessary?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2020, 01:58:36 PM »
Mark,


Great question, and like golf courses themselves, there are many variations among gca's.


I know that I apprenticed with great technical guys, one was a fair artist, but neither knew anything about golf, and they learned what they knew from Robert Bruce Harris, which as we all know, designed for maintenance first.  They tended to follow that path.  And, they every so often made some good technical decisions that were horrible for play.  So, when we first had the opportunity to work with Jim Colbert, I felt it enlightened me a lot, but they mostly refused to incorporate much of what he said good players looked for.....which is why, when I left he chose (among other reasons) to go with me.  And I continued to work with various pros, sometimes just by chance, but learned a bit from every one of them.


Short version....I knew my deficiency as a designer was not understanding what they (good players) look for.  So, I managed to improve my appreciation beyond what KN taught me, or even by what I learned back then from the World Atlas of Golf, by handing with folks who really did know.  By my game, I was qualified to assess the average player, LOL.


A few things were that they didn't really look at green frontal openings as much as all the golden age writing would suggest.  One would rather be on the same side of the fw as the green bunker, so he could aim at the far edge of the green, attempt to bring it back, and have the most margin for error.  Another said having the green front opening allowed him to club down when between clubs, and allow uphill putts.  If coming over a bunker, he hit it harder with more spin to back it to the hole, in essence giving himself the most margin for error distance wise, rather than cross ways.


I guess we have do define the phrase of "appreciating architecture?"  For who?


I find various golfers appreciation of courses seems to fall in line with their handicap.


 - Good golfers comment on hard holes, and holes that "fit the eye."


 - Average golfers comment on beauty most of all, and unusual holes occasionally (usually in the negative, so maybe there is no appreciation there)


 - Poor ones count lost balls. 


And all golfers seem to judge their every day courses as being good if they shoot about their average score.  So, if a course plays about as any level of golfer expects, has some aesthetics and isn't too hard, at least they relate to some portion of the architecture, which does encompass many things.


A related topic, but how good does a golfer have to be to be in this biz?  Or even just play business golf?  I generally believe (perhaps based on where my game usually is) that not hitting ground balls is good enough to leave a favorable enough impression on whoever you are playing with.  My handicap (when I really had one) ranged from 7 to 17 at various points, with the 7 coming after my trip to the Dave Pelz Short Game clinic (Thanks, Dave's guys!)  I hope a 17, with few ground balls but a fair share of stubbed chips and 3 putts is viewed as favorable to potential clients, enough not to dismiss me out of hand.  They seem to understand that virtually no one has enough time to work on the short game.


Lastly, I once was in charge of the ASGCA annual meeting golf tournament.  I don't recall if Forrest ever did it (among the many things he has done for the group over the years) but many think ability to handle that group on the golf course is a good indicator of how they might handle greater responsibilities, LOL.  At any rate, if memory serves, the average handicap of ASGCA members was 26 or something, i.e., average to poor golfers.  A fair number of them rarely played at all.  Some were embarrassed at being so poor, others who formerly played well were embarrassed at not playing as well as they used to.  Among mid century architects, the only one I can recall getting better with age was Larry Packard.  If you count Brad Klein as among the fraternity, he may have made the biggest handicap drop I ever saw, making his "Igolfbadly" email address a bit outdated.   :)


Interesting, Jeff. The more I play and the more I learn to appreciate architecture, the more I love holes that do not fit the eye -- shots that make one uncomfortable. Shots that require a shot that is decidedly not easy to pull off: ball above the feet lie to a green that slopes right to left.


But I think you are correct in your assessment of most golfers of either type ("good" or "average").

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