[Tommy Williamsen]

Some here will beg to differ but some might argue Galloway is the second best golf course in NJ.  As much as I love Somerset Hills and Plainfield (they are both sold 8's), Galloway is one of the best modern golf courses in the U.S. (except in the summer when it is borderline unplayable because of the bugs) 

Wow Mark! That is high praise especially in a golf rich state like NJ.
Here is GD's ranking. Not sure I'd rank it that high either. I've played 15 of them but would only put it 7 or 8.


1 . Pine Valley G.C.
(2) Baltusrol G.C. (Lower), Springfield
•3. Baltusrol G.C. (Upper), Springfield
•4 Somerset Hills C.C., Bernardsville
•5. Plainfield C.C., Edison •
6.  Galloway National G.C. ≈
7.  Ridgewood C.C. (East/West), Paramus
8.  Bayonne G.C. ≈
9.  Trump National G.C. Bedminster (Old)
10. The Ridge at Back Brook, Ringoes
11.  Liberty National G.C., Jersey City
12.  Mountain Ridge C.C., West Caldwell
13.  Essex County C.C., West Orange
14.  Hollywood G.C. Deal
15.  Metedeconk National G.C. (1st/3rd), Jackson
16. Hamilton Farm G.C. (Highlands), Gladstone
17. Hidden Creek G.C., Egg Harbor Township
18.  Arcola C.C., Paramus
19. Trump National G.C., Bedminster (New)
20. Trump National G.C. Philadelphia, Pine Hill

[Tim Martin]

I have played a fair amount of courses in and around Atlantic City in different seasons. That said Galloway is always in the same sentence as the greenhead horsefly. I don’t remember any other course in the area so closely associated with the aforementioned pests. What gives?

[Jeff Schley]

I really liked GN when I played it 2 years ago. It was more narrow than I would have liked, played very long in wet conditions. Nice views of the water and has some nice comfort amenities as well.

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
Thanks for posting those rankings.  So I am not that far off.  The Baltursol courses are both going under the knife (they need to as neither is as good as Galloway as they stand now).  The other two ahead of Galloway are the two I mentioned and I said they are both 8s and Galloway is in that ballpark at least the last time I saw it. 

[Sean Ogle]

I've played Galloway 3 times now, and each time I left thinking "man, that was a good golf course."


It's certainly challenging, but has some fun and memorable holes. I think it's far and away the best in AC.


Sure the bugs can be an issue and there are some green to tee transfer issues, but I think it's an excellent Fazio Course.


Every time I've played I've flown across the country to do so and have been very glad to make the trip. So for just a two hour drive? I'd say go for it.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

@ everyone


I've actually played Galloway. I prefer Hidden Creek. Nevertheless, whenever I'm in the area I always enjoy a meal at
Chef Vola's. 

[Sean Ogle]

@ everyone


I've actually played Galloway. I prefer Hidden Creek. Nevertheless, whenever I'm in the area I always enjoy a meal at
Chef Vola's. 

Volas may be the very best part of AC! Incredible.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Only played or three or four times but yes it is worth the drive. Especially since the green headed flies should be gone.
Some very nice holes. Yes not easy to walk but the weather should be nice.

[Drew Maliniak]

We played our college conference championship at GN. Excellent conditioning and definitely fun shots.


Wonderful match play course because the par 5s are all reachable. The par 3s are a nice mix. 2 and 17 in particular are quite strong.


My one gripe: Rather brutal in stroke play because there is fairway--or unplayable. I[size=78%]f your driver is off at all, it becomes a very long day (or you will have a few holes where you are out of it.) [/size]

[Kevin Pallier]

The OP talked about whether it was worth a 2hr drive and the simple answer is yes.

I agree with many here - GN was the harder course and Hidden Creek more fun for courses in that locale.

[Steve Lapper]

Tommy,
Thanks for posting those rankings.  So I am not that far off.  The Baltursol courses are both going under the knife (they need to as neither is as good as Galloway as they stand now).  The other two ahead of Galloway are the two I mentioned and I said they are both 8s and Galloway is in that ballpark at least the last time I saw it.

Mark,


 As much as  I like and respect Galloway, I will strongly disagree with you re: it's placement inside the golf-rich state of NJ. Both Somerset Hills and Plainfield are much more architecturally-interesting courses. Hollywood, Ridgewood and Mountain Ridge all are as well. Give me 10 rounds with any of these matched up against GN, and they all go 7-3 or better.


 Using the painfully-flawed GD State list as any benchmark is both stupid and senseless. The skew to difficulty and length defaults to ignoring vastly more interesting courses. A certain list will be coming in two weeks that will do a far better job of highlighting architecture over "resistance to scoring," etc.


  Al this said, Chef Volas and White House Sub Shop are one of the state's best 1-2 food combos!

[Mark_Fine]

Steve,
I enjoy all those courses you mentioned.  You are partial to the older courses and so am I.  However, give Fazio his due with Galloway.  Forget the GD rankings, if you don't give Galloway at least a 7.5 or 8, we are looking at much different things.  Galloway is in Fazio's top five courses in my opinion (at least in the top five that I have seen from him). 

[William_G]

no

[Tommy Williamsen]

Steve,
I enjoy all those courses you mentioned.  You are partial to the older courses and so am I.  However, give Fazio his due with Galloway.  Forget the GD rankings, if you don't give Galloway at least a 7.5 or 8, we are looking at much different things.  Galloway is in Fazio's top five courses in my opinion (at least in the top five that I have seen from him).

Mark what ore the top ten Fazios you have seen?
I'll rank them this way of the ones I have played.
Shadow Creek
Wade Hampton
Victoria National
Gozzer Ranch
Congaree
The Quarry
Galloway
Hudson National
Pinehurst 8
Caves Valley
Maroon Creek

[Jeff Schley]

Tommy,
Thanks for posting those rankings.  So I am not that far off.  The Baltursol courses are both going under the knife (they need to as neither is as good as Galloway as they stand now).  The other two ahead of Galloway are the two I mentioned and I said they are both 8s and Galloway is in that ballpark at least the last time I saw it.

Mark,


 As much as  I like and respect Galloway, I will strongly disagree with you re: it's placement inside the golf-rich state of NJ. Both Somerset Hills and Plainfield are much more architecturally-interesting courses. Hollywood, Ridgewood and Mountain Ridge all are as well. Give me 10 rounds with any of these matched up against GN, and they all go 7-3 or better.


 Using the painfully-flawed GD State list as any benchmark is both stupid and senseless. The skew to difficulty and length defaults to ignoring vastly more interesting courses. A certain list will be coming in two weeks that will do a far better job of highlighting architecture over "resistance to scoring," etc.


  Al this said, Chef Volas and White House Sub Shop are one of the state's best 1-2 food combos!

Yeah I liked GN, but think Plainfield is underappreciated big time. I have it at a Doak 8 solidly.

[Mark Saltzman]

The standards on this board are hard to understand. Many people drive more than an hour to play local public courses. How could it not be worth a 2 hour drive to play one of the best in a golf-rich state like New Jersey? Whether it is the 4th or 14th best is irrelevant.

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
I am not at my main office so I would have to pull all my score cards but here are a few that I can think of and I place Galloway in the top five of all of these:

The Estancia Club
CC of Callawassie
Palmetto Dunes
Ridge at Back Brook
Trump National (Old)
Berkleigh Hall (North and South)
Wild Dunes
Barton Creek
Gozzer Ranch
The Quarry at La Quinta
Floridian
Lake Nona
Osprey Ridge
Pablo Creek
Pelican Hill (South and North)
The National Golf Club of Canada
Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry and Ranch)
Hammock Dunes
World Woods (Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks)
Sea Island
Victoria National
Caves Valley
Jupiter Hills
Lake Nona
Osprey Ridge
Pablo Creek
PGA National
World Woods (Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks)
Sea Island
Pinehurst #8
Wade Hampton
Sand Ridge GC
Hartefeld National
Victoria National
Caves Valley
Shadow Creek
Hudson National
Forest Creek
Pinehurst #8
Wade Hampton
Sand Ridge GC
Hartefeld National
Belfair (East and West)
CC of Callawassie
Palmetto Dunes
Berkleigh Hall (North and South)
Wild Dunes
Barton Creek

[Mark_Fine]

Mark S,
I agree with you about the standards being hard to understand??  We have people here saying they would fly across the country to play it and others who wouldn't drive two hours?  Yet when a new list of Top 100 courses comes out, it gets torn to bits for being soo wrong     They are just lists, get over it.  That said, Galloway (except in the summer when the course can be unplayable because of the bugs) is a great Fazio design and I would love to see someone here who doesn't like it have a live chat with Tom and explain to him why.  I have had some great discussions with him and he is really a nice guy and would listen to any criticism.  At the same time, he is very knowledgable and one better have their thoughts together if they want to come across with any GCA credibility.  Tom spent A LOT of time at Galloway and takes pride in that one (I think in part because he was spending a lot of time at Pine Valley when he built it).  I don't like what Tom does when he touches classic courses and I have told him so, but he can build some great original ones.  Just my opinion.

[mike_malone]

 I don’t know about most people’s opinions on here but I wouldn’t get too riled up about mine. I spend one nanosecond of thinking before posting.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
We all sometimes make posts (or even start threads) too quickly or purely on spare of the moment emotion  [size=78%].  I respect your opinion and I honesty think you would change your mind if you played the course again (not in the summer 😊).  It has some really cool architecture going on.  You can tell Tom spent time on this one.  [/size]
Mark

[mike_malone]

I love angles. I played it a few times and always felt the issues were parallel to the line of play making hitting it down the middle the preferred option.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
The course does demand accuracy but many of the angles are created by varying your distances off the tee.  I found there was plenty of room to play golf and rarely felt claustrophobic off the tee.  Some architect we both know well once said, “Accuracy, Carry, Length” were key attributes of a great test of golf with the premium on accuracy as that should carry the greatest reward.”
Galloway demands accuracy both on the tee shots and on the approaches.  It is a bit like Pine Valley (that was Fazio’s inspiration for Galloway) in that there is room to play off the tee, but miss the fairways and recovery will be difficult.  Like Pine Valley it is very much a second shot golf course. 

[mike_malone]

Pine Valley is angles over the top. I’ve played Galloway and it’s no Pine Valley of angles.


  Different lengths is not a strategy I find interesting.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
We may have to agree to disagree.  I have played Pine Valley a dozen times and is not so much about angles, it is about playing the same ball on each hole 😉.  On #1 the angles are mostly determined by the distance you hit the ball.  The longer you hit it especially if you can hit a power fade, the straighter and shorter shot you have into the green.  In all honesty even the best players are just trying to find the fairway/the corner of the dogleg to get their round started.  The second shot is the demanding one on the first hole.  Don’t miss right left or long or you are in trouble. On #2 there are no angles. You just need to hit the fairway if you can.  #3 is a par three.  #4 is once again all about hitting the fairway as gauging the downhill second is where challenge comes in. #5 you bless yourself and hope to finish the hole with the same ball as only God can par that par three    #6 is basically a cape style hole and line of play off the tee depends on how far you can/what to hit it.  It is not about the angle into that green it is about distance. #7 has zero to do about angles it is all about getting over Hell’s Half Acre safely in two shots as most any angle on the third will do in to that green surrounded by sand. The 8th and 9th are all about finding the fairway (one side can be better than the other because of the multiple greens on each hole so it helps to know what green is in play that day). I could go on but I really don’t think even the best golfers are thinking much about angles at PV.  It is much more about accuracy off the tee and controlling your distance.

[Frank Sekulic]

I loved the debate back and forth about whether or not to make the 2 hour drive to play Galloway National, that is what make this site great.


In the end I decided to make a 2 hour drive but, I headed west to play the Country Club of Scranton and boy am I happy that I did.


Living in Southern California, the opportunities to play a true classic gem are few and far between and Scranton was all that and more and a place I will definitely play again when I am back East in April.


Now onto Plainfield for what I am sure will be a great example of Ross’s work.

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