News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« on: September 12, 2020, 12:00:15 PM »
Golf Courses Emerge as a Fix for L.A.’s Affordable Housing Crisis
A Los Angeles architect argues that the solution to the city’s housing woes might lie on the 18th green.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-11/golf-courses-may-be-l-a-s-affordable-housing-fix
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2020, 12:48:50 PM »
Rename the course Trump National. After the LA scene refuse to play there a transition to affordable housing will be welcomed.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2020, 01:49:15 PM »
“It’s a really pretty park,” says Dermot Connell, an L.A. golfer who is very involved in the city’s municipal circuit and serves as a Rancho Park board member. “From almost every point at Rancho, you can get a perspective of the city. It’s unique in the sense that you’re in the middle of a major metropolitan area — yet there you are, walking along a tree line in a little oasis of solitude.”
[/size]However, the course looks a little different to Daniel Dunham, a designer at the Santa Monica-based Koning Eizenberg Architecture firm. To him, Rancho Park would be an ideal spot to build affordable housing.Dunham [/color]estimates that one could fit 15,000 units — homes for about 50,000 people — on the 200-acre site, which is also within walking distance of both an upcoming [/color]Purple Line extension and a [/color]station on the Expo subway line. And Rancho is just one of the [/color]19 courses available to L.A. duffers — the city operates the [/color]largest public golf system in the United States.[/size]“It’s just such a huge use of land that I find it’s pretty inexcusable in dense urban areas,” Dunham says.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2020, 02:16:38 PM »
This means that they could house 210,000 people in Central Park if they converted that.  What a great idea.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2020, 03:23:18 PM »
In five years when all the film studios go bust as netflix takes over the entertainment industry then there will be lots of redundant land in Hollywood  ;D

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2020, 03:46:43 AM »
In five years when all the film studios go bust as netflix takes over the entertainment industry then there will be lots of redundant land in Hollywood  ;D
Funny you said that because across the street from Rancho Park is Paramount studios lot.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2020, 04:02:52 AM »

“It’s a really pretty park,” says Dermot Connell, an L.A. golfer who is very involved in the city’s municipal circuit and serves as a Rancho Park board member. “From almost every point at Rancho, you can get a perspective of the city. It’s unique in the sense that you’re in the middle of a major metropolitan area — yet there you are, walking along a tree line in a little oasis of solitude.”
However, the course looks a little different to Daniel Dunham, a designer at the Santa Monica-based Koning Eizenberg Architecture firm. To him, Rancho Park would be an ideal spot to build affordable housing.Dunham estimates that one could fit 15,000 units — homes for about 50,000 people — on the 200-acre site, which is also within walking distance of both an upcoming Purple Line extension and a station on the Expo subway line. And Rancho is just one of the 19 courses available to L.A. duffers — the city operates the largest public golf system in the United States.“It’s just such a huge use of land that I find it’s pretty inexcusable in dense urban areas,” Dunham says.

Strange thing....the newspaper article forgot to mention what is really on Daniel Dunham's mind...that is known as architectural fees, which I believe typically run at 10% of building costs.  Assuming $100k for costs per unit...total construction costs would be $100,000*15,000 or $1.5 billion yielding arch fees of $150 million.  And that is just for Rancho...remember he has his eyes on 18 other courses as well (not to mention the possibility of using eminent domain to acquire privately owned courses).   

Tal Oz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2020, 11:31:41 PM »
In five years when all the film studios go bust as netflix takes over the entertainment industry then there will be lots of redundant land in Hollywood  ;D
Funny you said that because across the street from Rancho Park is Paramount studios lot.
Tim, the Fox lot is across the street from Rancho Park. Paramount is just up the street from Wilshire CC.
Would be a shame to lose any green space in LA proper. The article circling a 20 mile radius from LA is quite generous to reach that 10,000 acres and 87 courses figure.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2020, 11:25:52 AM »
What a terrible idea. Golf courses are a green space reprieve from all the hustle and bustle of a city and to take that away just to make convenient housing units is missing the big picture. It should be available to people who live in urban environments and maybe don't own a car.  In LA public transportation isn't nearly as widely used as it is in NY/Chicago, etc. So get rid of some of the "largest municipal golf system in the USA" because well..... they have the largest so if they miss a couple big deal? Also in urban environments it allows for an affordable round of golf. I have never been rich, but I was once pretty poor and played Chester Washington, Los Verdes, and Rancho for my golf. I'm sure most folks in LA are in a similar boat.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2020, 11:43:11 AM »
Jeff,


I agree with your post.  Also, I agree with what I presume will be Lou Duran's or Mike Young's objections.....which is that it will be even more increasingly easy for govt. to take good park land, including golf, just because.  Many city charters prevent selling of existing facility and land just because it could be too easy for a city to enter into a sweetheart deal with their favorite developer, etc.


As if the green space, air quality, recreation elements didn't make golf valuable enough, with all the fires out there, they should include "fire break via the irrigation system" as an added benefit of golf courses.  I know Faz's Newport Beach Pelican Hill served that function.  Also, here in Texas many years back, when there were prairie fires, much wildlife ran to the golf course to escape the flames.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2020, 12:36:00 PM »



As if the green space, air quality, recreation elements didn't make golf valuable enough, with all the fires out there, they should include "fire break via the irrigation system" as an added benefit of golf courses.  I know Faz's Newport Beach Pelican Hill served that function.  Also, here in Texas many years back, when there were prairie fires, much wildlife ran to the golf course to escape the flames.
Woah.... that is a great point!  Never even thought of that, genius. I don't know how much of a fire break it would be, but with proper tree management and irrigation I really like that. Civil engineers and environmental engineers should pay attention to that point.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2020, 02:29:19 PM »
If my recollection is correct, didn't gca.com favorite Rustic Canyon serve as a barrier to fires in Simi Valley some 10 years ago saving a neighborhood?


To slightly update famed philosopher Leonard Nemoy : "the needs of the many outweigh the privileges of the few".


The golf participation rate of the U.S. is around 8%; less than 3% are considered "avid" golfers.  Housing has been suppressed in SoCal for as long as I can remember, vastly inflating the price of existing stock well beyond the ability of the average resident to afford it. 


Back around 2007-8, an article in the Orange County Register noted that the median price house in its area cost more than 10 times the median income.  At that time, the benchmark for underwriting was around 2.5x, i.e. $100k in gross income would prudently allow a buyer to pay $250k for a home.  With lower interest rates this multiple went up a little, but what allowed residents to buy was the bending of the lending standards, new mortgage products, outright fraud (e.g. liar loans), renting rooms, etc.  Of course, this all came home to roost when the mortgage crisis hit circa 2007.


So, if a city owns usable land and there are no other ways to develop "affordable" housing, what is more important, committing resources to a use that is not essential and enjoyed by a very small percentage of its residents or alleviating a severe humanitarian problem?  It seems to me that if a government entity can make a decision to build and own golf courses, it is also empowered to do something else with its property in light of more emergent needs.


Of course not only could it happen here, it already has.  No doubt that LA County courses serve an important purpose and receive an inordinate amount of play.  But it is not whether government has plenty of money to meet all of its obligations.  It is a matter more of robbing Peter to pay Paul.


My biggest issue is with eminent domain and the ability of developers in cahoots with local governments to condemn private property and redevelop it under the guise of higher uses for the community and a larger tax base for the politicians.  The regrettable SC Kelo decision has resulted in many states taking measures to protect private property, but as the link below notes, not sufficiently.

https://reason.com/2020/06/23/the-15th-anniversary-of-kelo-v-city-of-new-london


For those who have a subscription to the WSJ, there is an interesting article on the attempt to condemn Deepdale Golf Club.  To the best of my knowledge, the club was able to fend off the city's mayor, but not many clubs have such a well-connected, powerful membership.


As private property rights are increasingly compromised in the US as they have been in much of the Western world, the fate of golf courses, publicly or privately owned, are more at the mercy of the political winds than the written law or right or wrong.  Cuba, Venezuela, and China have all closed golf courses in the name of higher collective uses.  The Coul Links decision in the Scottish Highlands and Dos Pueblos near Santa Barbara are of the same vein.




 


   

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2020, 04:18:20 PM »
Lou, terrific post with the nuances fairly well summarized on both sides.

There are no doubt cases of eminent domain being too aggressively used as well as to some places being overly protective and stopping very reasonable development.  I may be in the minority but the paragraph I most agree with is this one:

"So, if a city owns usable land and there are no other ways to develop "affordable" housing, what is more important, committing resources to a use that is not essential and enjoyed by a very small percentage of its residents or alleviating a severe humanitarian problem?  It seems to me that if a government entity can make a decision to build and own golf courses, it is also empowered to do something else with its property in light of more emergent needs."

Its a tough because no doubt the LA area has a massive shortage of courses, they have en even bigger lack of affordable housing. And its not limited to just that part of the state, the SF Bay Area is even worse.  At the end of the day I suspect old fashioned NIMBY'ism will likely kill this, which no one is immune to regardless of political basis. 

P.S.  I don't buy the fire break argument per se as its surrounded by a sea of suburbia and if there is a fire raging out of control at that location, there will be far bigger problems than a few roasted squirrels. Or they could head next door to the private facility...

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2020, 05:15:02 PM »
What a terrible idea. Golf courses are a green space reprieve from all the hustle and bustle of a city and to take that away just to make convenient housing units is missing the big picture. It should be available to people who live in urban environments and maybe don't own a car.  In LA public transportation isn't nearly as widely used as it is in NY/Chicago, etc. So get rid of some of the "largest municipal golf system in the USA" because well..... they have the largest so if they miss a couple big deal? Also in urban environments it allows for an affordable round of golf. I have never been rich, but I was once pretty poor and played Chester Washington, Los Verdes, and Rancho for my golf. I'm sure most folks in LA are in a similar boat.


Amen.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2020, 05:27:37 PM »
Cities may have pressing needs to house the poor, assuming they need to stay in that geo political border.  Cities also have the duty to protect the environment, provide a quality of living, not increase flooding, etc.  Honestly, given there is probably a law against everything these days, I believe any attempt to close the golf course would be met by many objections, both public and regulatory until they find a better solution.


Besides environmental reasons, these days, it would seem near defunct shopping malls and office complexes would be a better place to bulldoze and put section 8 apartments than green space of any kind.  Houston has bought many malls and dug big holes to increase flood storage capacity.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2020, 06:48:04 PM »
Jeff,


I hadn't heard that- Houston malls being repurposed for water storage and flood control.  I do know of some courses in that area which serve the latter purpose.  Where you live, prior to all the engineering and earthworks, some 3k acres served that purpose.


I am not advocating for Rancho being closed in favor of subsidized housing.   I am saying that it is a choice the city may wish to consider in light of competing needs.  Along with a few others on this site, I've long believed that most government entities have little reason to develop golf facilities that are more than rudimentary (e.g. the old Lake Arlington and Ditto).


Very rarely there is a situation where the private sector can't provide the higher-end golf that a small percentage of an area's citizens would enjoy and the local government finds itself in such good financial shape that it can step in.  I know of one such community in north Texas which spent nearly $50 million for a high school football stadium, and with its continued growth, enviable demographics, and light golf competition in its immediate area, paying $10 million for an existing facility in its jurisdiction may make sense.


We now often hear of food security and universal healthcare.  Housing security is not far behind, ditto education, guaranteed livable income, etc.  I have some doubts that golf is being re-imagined similarly.     

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: It Can't Happen Here or Could It?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2020, 09:16:25 AM »
Lou,


I think there have been at least THREE north Dallas areas burbs who have built HS football stadiums, and I believe at least one was over $60Million, not $50M, but I haven't looked it up pre-coffee this morning.  Only in Texas could that be considered a wise use of money by local govt agencies.  (Or not having enough textbooks, but building that stadium, or closing schools, but the football season must go on!) 


As to where I live, my knowledge of drainage and floods as a gca came in handy.  We got a Army Corp of Engineers certificate of being out of the 100 year floodplain, which is certified in all future conditions to be 468 at our point on the whatever branch of the Trinity.  My first floor elevation is 474, so I think I am okay, even in bigger storms.  Don't know the DFW numbers, but in Houston, the former 500 year storm is now classified as a 25 year storm.


As to your main point, city golf ought to be cheap golf, I understand the sentiment and tend to agree.  That said, that kind of thinking basically forced city golf to operate at losses, and at some point, fiscal responsibility proponents thought govt. ought to act more like private enterprise and aim for at least break even.  The market suggested that upscale public was the way to go, and honestly, golfers do seem to prefer a bit higher level of public golf, and we aren't going back to freeway golf anywhere.  Standards go up. But also, times change, and I have no idea what ideas may emerge.  I am generally against the easily brought up mindset that golf is for the rich, and then raising a mid price public golf course, meant for the middle class because of it. 


As golfers, we almost have to be. Its a great game, but also an easy target.  Maybe there is a new definition of "target golf" brewing out there somewhere. LOL.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach