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Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2020, 11:27:57 AM »
I played it August 2017 and certainly thought there were some fantastic holes.
There was one absolutely insane green near the end of the back 9.
But the main limitation I found was the horrible condition of literally every tee.

Hopefully that is in the past.


Went to Google Earth.
17 is the green I was talking about, I think.


Bruce - you're right, it is the 17th. Absolutely crazy and somewhat out of character with the rest of the greens, but I really liked it.


The only hole I thought was a little "meh" was #14 - didn't seem to fit in. But otherwise I walked off it thinking it was very underrated (other than by Golfweek apparently). Could have been because at the time they had a deal with Club Corp and I played it for cart fees. Unfortunately that relationship is over.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2020, 11:56:50 AM »
I think you guys are underrating the back nine.


10 is just a good, rock-solid, strong par 4 with a really interesting green, a beautiful setting, angles that matter, and strong hazards. But this thread would have a reader think it sucks because there's a waterfall hanging out the right side of the green and an old train parked left of it. Trains are cool. Ask any kid.


12 is one of the most unusual and disorienting holes I've ever played. This forum has never seen a sub-350 yard hole that it didn't go googly eyes over. But there's no love for this one? Really? Do you guys just need to play it a second time so you can make birdie and fall in love?


How is 14 anything other than five random acres in West Virginia that you're thankful the game of golf took you to visit? Another rock-solid, strong par 4, in a beautiful and unusual setting, with interest on each shot and plenty of challenges to sample if you go astray. What is missing here that makes it anything less than an excellent hole?


15 is a gettable hole that requires you to pull off tough shots to get it. It's easy enough to play it on a drive-by visit and shrug your shoulders at another lateral-hazarded par 5 I guess, but damn if it's not a hell of a proposition if you're playing any kind of game that counts and know that you may be looking at your last opportunity to put a good score on the card before you hold on to your ass for the last three holes.


No love for 16. Guess y'all don't like redans unless their difficulty has been neutered by modern equipment.


Then you get to 17, and after a day of big-ass targets on every approach, you get asked to hit one to the correct portion of the green with a wedge in your hand or face a hellacious putt, and you balk because it's hard. Put on your big boy pants. 60% of the people who ever stepped foot on this property had black lung by the time they left, and you're upset because your mediocre wedge game left you a putt that was hard to read.


And can anyone seriously explain why 18 is definitely NOT the best closing hole in the world? I'm not saying it's number 1 - I think that's almost impossible to prove - but I'm saying it's good enough that I can't just rule it out.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2020, 12:15:11 PM »
I would agree with Jason that the back nine is underrated.

I was told that 14 was Pete Dye's favorite hole he ever built.   According to what I was told, it was because he didn't have to do anything as it was already there.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2020, 02:14:37 PM »





"60% of the people who ever stepped foot on this property had black lung by the time they left, and you're upset because your mediocre wedge game left you a putt that was hard to read."
[/size][/color]
[/size]This is gold. [/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]Maybe I need to reconsider #14. Just seemed really bland.[/color]

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2020, 03:25:11 PM »

And can anyone seriously explain why 18 is definitely NOT the best closing hole in the world? I'm not saying it's number 1 - I think that's almost impossible to prove - but I'm saying it's good enough that I can't just rule it out.


By definition, you'd only have to find one finishing hole that is better to disqualify it.  A few suggestions off the top of my head, but i'm sure others can think of a bunch more:

Pebble 18 - Perhaps the most obvious one.
Shinnecock
NGLA
Cabot Cliffs
Half Moon Bay - Ocean
Doral

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2020, 06:37:04 PM »
Ryan,

This is what you call a "meh" hole? Damn you are hard to please.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2020, 12:05:20 PM »

And can anyone seriously explain why 18 is definitely NOT the best closing hole in the world? I'm not saying it's number 1 - I think that's almost impossible to prove - but I'm saying it's good enough that I can't just rule it out.


By definition, you'd only have to find one finishing hole that is better to disqualify it.  A few suggestions off the top of my head, but i'm sure others can think of a bunch more:

Pebble 18 - Perhaps the most obvious one.
Shinnecock
NGLA
Cabot Cliffs
Half Moon Bay - Ocean
Doral


Kalen, Pat Mucci would tell you to check your reading comprehension.


I'm asking for a definitive explanation, not a list of contenders. I understand that there are plenty of contenders, and alluded to as much in my post.


But let's work with what you threw up. You reference Pebble's 18th as the most obvious contender, and I agree. No one gets laughed out of the room for positing Pebble's 18th as the best finishing hole on Earth.


So, picture Pebble's 18th, and picture Pete Dye Golf Club's. Then, picture each hole again, but this time, replace the hazard left with the hazard from the OTHER hole. Picture Pebble's 18th as the same hole, but bordered by Simpson Creek. And likewise, Pete Dye Golf Club's 18th, but bordered by Stillwater Cove.


What you'll quickly realize is that 18 at PDGC has better terrain, more angles in play and more options embedded within them, a superior green, and a far more attractive manmade wall bordering its predominant hazard. It has more width, and is less prescriptive about how to use it. It also mercifully spares you the flyover from the doves that just emerged from a Gucci bag, unzipped by the couple getting hitched to the right of the green, as you're lining up your bogey putt.


Pebble has more notoriety, sure, and I love it. Top five on my personal list of great finishers. But if you think it's decisively better than Pete Dye GC's 18th, with those goofy-ass trees in the fairway and the over-the-top bunkering and OB right, it's only because you'd rather stare at rich people and a saltwater cove than mountains and streams.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2020, 12:21:07 PM »
Jason,

I did understand the initial claim, but due to its absurdity, I chose instead to offer some examples that are far far more likely to be considered as "better closers", and all its takes is one.

Claiming that it can NOT be excluded as the best closing hole, is a bit like saying Halle Berry or Demi Moore cannot be proven that they aren't the hottest women on the planet and is a subjective exercise in futility.  The list of those lines of arguments is a mile long and you can reference the logical fallacy on "proving negatives/burden of proof" if you'd like more context.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2020, 12:46:43 PM »
I think perhaps a more interesting debate is whether the 18th at Pete Dye Golf Club is the best of Pete Dye's pretty ubiquitious "half-C" turning left around water finishing holes on the planet, such as 18 at Sawgrass, Bulle Rock, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

Given the dramatic terrain and elevation changes one needs to consider with both a cautious as well as a bold play evident at PDGC and not the others I'd vote yes.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2020, 01:15:52 PM »
Claiming that it can NOT be excluded as the best closing hole, is a bit like saying Halle Berry or Demi Moore cannot be proven that they aren't the hottest women on the planet and is a subjective exercise in futility.


Which is unlike any other golf course architecture debate in what way, exactly?


Mike, I think I agree although I definitely haven't seen them all. But one of the things I appreciate about the hole is how it stands on its own merits. Like, I think it would be hard to play PGA West and not think of Sawgrass. But even knowing that Dye had "templates" that he liked to use, I don't stand on that tee and think "here's the ol' Pete Dye water-on-the-left finishing hole." It's a perfect marriage of template and site, the same way that the 16th at Old MacDonald just feels like exactly what the setting calls for even as you know that a hole with its fundamental playing characteristics was already on the table before the site was even explored.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2020, 01:40:18 PM »
Jason,

Its all a matter of how the starting point is framed.

Its one thing to claim ANGC is the best golf course on the planet and provide a list of reasons as to why it is and debate those.
But its quite another to proclaim ANGC as the best golf course on the planet until someone proves that it is not.

Worlds apart and in my time on GCA.com I haven't seen many arguments framed via scenario 2.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2020, 06:43:07 AM »
Jason,


I agree and think it is because in the case of PDGC the water on the left has to be crossed from the tee and you get to pick your line.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2020, 03:43:01 PM »

I agree and think it is because in the case of PDGC the water on the left has to be crossed from the tee and you get to pick your line.


I agree, too, but I like it because the second shot is vastly more interesting than just playing along the water.  You have to have played left off the tee to see the green directly, and if you are playing short and trying to bounce the ball on, or just lay up, the target is blind which makes it much more fraught.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2020, 03:51:01 PM »
Ryan,

This is what you call a "meh" hole? Damn you are hard to please.


True story:  I'm the one who suggested the stone walls on that hole.


Mr. Dye had sent me there for a quick stint in the fall of 1985, and he told the client that I was the one who ran the GOLF Magazine rankings . . . so instead of letting me do much shaping work, they wanted me to tell them how to make PDGC a top ten course!


The 14th was the one hole that didn't have a lot of features going on, and having been back to North Berwick just a couple of months before, I suggested building a couple of stone walls and trying to bring them into play.  I think they went ahead and built them before Pete saw it again!  He did not want them in play to the same degree I had suggested, but I smiled when I saw that they were still there.


[Do you see the little spur of wall above the bunker on the left?  IIRC, I had flagged a wall coming down there and right across the fairway!]

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2020, 07:42:49 PM »
Tom, sorry you got to work on such a dull hole.  ;) I like the restraint on this hole. It's one of the most beautiful on the course.

 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 07:44:34 PM by matt kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2020, 10:07:08 PM »
I have to say, if all posts on this DG were as bat-shit crazy enthusiastic as Jason's on the back nine, it would be hard to pull me away.


I don't get why the black-lung thing gets brought in at all, but I love the spontaneous poignancy of it.


I didn't see #16 being a Redan hole. It has no fronting hazard. With the proper green, it might be biarritzy, but not for me to say. I thought the long-ass S bunker right was weird. #13 is more Redan than #16.


What's the point of some of those detached bunkers on #12 green?











Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2020, 02:13:40 PM »
I didn't see #16 being a Redan hole. It has no fronting hazard. With the proper green, it might be biarritzy, but not for me to say. I thought the long-ass S bunker right was weird. #13 is more Redan than #16.


What's the point of some of those detached bunkers on #12 green?


It's not that I think 16 is a true (reverse) Redan, although I think it shares some elements. About the right length, a bit of a kickplate that lets a low-ball player try to bank one onto a green that angles diagonally from the tee around the bunker to the right, and I seem to remember portions of the green running away from the tee to help a running ball feed a little deeper into the surface. But part of what I'm getting at is that the only real complaints I've ever heard about the hole are that it's really hard, and that recoveries from the bunker are especially difficult. And spending Sunday at Lawsonia with its formidable hazards just reminds me - a course we think of as "sporty" today was so much more difficult for the average player using the equipment of its day than a hole like 16 at PDGC that people bitch about being too hard today.


As for 12, one of the things I like about the hole is that, if you play it well, you might only really notice that it has 1 or 2 bunkers. You'll certainly notice the one in the knoll off the tee, and maybe the ones that front the left side of the approach. But a player who flails at driver has a chance to end up damn near anywhere, and the 50-100ish yard bunker shot really is the hardest shot in golf for almost anybody. So many short par 4s let any player take a rip and suffer minimal consequences for most misses. On 12 at PDGC, you'll need to either judge your abilities correctly or pull off a recovery from a situation that might change with every play until you get smarter. There's a certain poetry in standing on the tee thinking about hitting a target you can't see, save for maybe a glimpse of the flag, and trying to clear a hazard you CAN see, only to find your ball in a different hazard that was only alluded to by the one you could see, and nowhere near the target you hoped to hit and still can't see. But meanwhile, the player who really respects the hazard he can see only needs to play his ball maybe 200 yards in its direction to set up a wedge or short iron, and a disciplined player can steer right of it to the widest section of fairway and create a pitch-shot approach with a great view of the target.


Basically, it's a hole that offers plenty of temptation but that rewards judiciousness and honest assessment of one's playing ability. Which, really, is sorta the hallmark of Pete Dye's work, right?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2020, 07:33:21 PM »
I think as Tom said, not many people have ever played this course, so for that reason it is probably underrated.I think if I had to be a member at any Dye course this would perhaps be my first choice.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2020, 08:41:31 PM »
Having played the course a number of times I would agree with the sentiment that tha back nine drags it down a bit.


The “bells and whistles” on 10 don’t bother me as much as they do TD but holes 11-15 just don’t pack much punch.


The discussion on 14 is entertaining but at the end of the day it is a rather pedestrian hole. I do find it interesting, perhaps ironic, that TD suggested the wall and finds it a cool feature while panning the coal car on 10. Why is an artificial wall ok but something paying homage to the site’s origins out of place?


I find the green on 17 to be the only thing that saves the hole. Supposedly built by developer (LaRossa) multiple times, rejected by Dye, redone by LaRossa and finally Dye gave in.


Overall I think it is one of his better works and I honestly enjoy playing it more than Teeth of the Dog. Likely my West Virginia bias but honest feeling.






Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2020, 10:35:34 PM »
Oh I'm a total shill for Pete Dye Golf Club but I'd split plays with Teeth of the Dog like 9-1 in favor of Teeth. Honestly, why is Pebble Beach better than Teeth of the Dog? Asking as a guy who has Pebble #1 but isn't sure he can answer the question convincingly.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2020, 09:01:51 AM »
I've not played The Golf Club, Honors Course, or Crooked Stick, but I think I like PDGC better than any others of his I've played in the US, including TPC Sawgrass, Blackwolf Run, Whistling Straits and quite a few others.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2020, 10:31:31 AM »
Tom, sorry you got to work on such a dull hole.  ;) I like the restraint on this hole. It's one of the most beautiful on the course.


Funny, I almost said in my earlier post that the one interesting feature to me about #14 was the wall. But I also assumed it was already existing.


Tagging on to Cirba's list, I'd list my Dye courses as:


1. Whistling Straits
2. Pete Dye GC
3. The Golf Club
4. Harbour Town
5. Blackwolf Run River (original 18)
6. Crooked Stick
7. Honors
8. Sawgrass


Haven't played Teeth of the Dog but assume it would be in play in my top 3


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Pete Dye GC not Dye' s best?
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2020, 12:17:49 PM »
The discussion of 10 and 14 reminds me of a discussion a few of us had at Blackwolf Run a few days ago. We played the Meadow-Valleys back nine (pro tip: never go to Kohler to tack on an afternoon 9), which I consider one of the best nines in golf, especially if you can play the original 10th (we got off our tee shots from the red marker and thought we might just pull off firing our approaches before we saw the dude driving our way from the clubhouse...).

One of the guys in our group mentioned that he didn't really care for 12. It just didn't seem like anything special. And I totally get what he's saying, because it's not a hole that's loaded with features. It's just a big par 4 in a cool setting playing back into sort of a cliff-framed bowl, with some hazards in the driving zone but not especially strategic in placement. It sits on the land gracefully, it asks for two strong shots played accurately, it has a large green with some really cool contouring, but at the end of the day you're just trying to drive it long and straight, and then hit a good strong approach.

10 and 14 at PDGC both have a little more going on in terms of angles, but they're similar. Pretty straightforward, stout, pleasant-looking but not exactly thrilling. But crucially, I've played these three holes a combined 4 times in my life. I've only gotten a taste of them. But they're pretty wide holes, and their greens have a lot of character, and they have a variety of lies and positions one could find themselves in, and it's easy to see how multiple plays over time might reveal a lot more about all the different situations they can present.

I think what I'm trying to get at is that, like, everyone who plays the Road Hole can see the hole's central elements at work right away. The tee shot requires judgment, but the stakes are straightforward - challenge the OB and you'll get a better angle. Play more safely and you probably won't hit the hotel. But you'll have to contend with the scary bunker, or maybe the road or a rock wall. Good luck. And plenty of Pete Dye holes are similarly straightforward in their stakes. When you fire at the green on 5 at PDGC in two, you understand your goal and the consequences of failure clearly. You know the ideal miss. The audaciousness of those holes makes these things clear. But a hole like 10 PDGC, 14 PDGC, or 12 BWRMV doesn't really reveal its hand as clearly. And I haven't played them enough to know - maybe they don't have much of a hand to play. But I'm betting that a player who gets familiar with those holes learns that there are places to miss, and not to miss. And the fact that those places aren't spelled out as clearly just from a first glance at the hole doesn't make those holes dull. It makes them holes to be learned.

Unfortunately, it's sort of unlikely that I'll play any of these three holes again, and I REALLY doubt I'll play them enough times to get to know them as well as, say, the mostly nondescript-looking par 4 opener at my home course. It's long and straight with just a single bunker, and could easily be dismissed as pretty bland. But play it a few dozen times and you start to realize that there are definitely ideal spots to target, and good and bad places to miss, and times when you have to try to miss in a bad place because it's still the best alternative available, and that two guys lying 30 yards from the pin in two shots might actually be in VERY different positions. I'd love to get equally familiar with some of the equally "dull" holes in Dye's catalog, because there's just no way that a guy who was such a master of deception just, like, forgot to build interest into the occasional longer par 4. Rather, I suspect his frequent audacity helps mask some of the subtlety that lives in his work.

Just for kicks, my Pete Dye Top 10 Courses list:

1. Teeth of the Dog
2. Pete Dye Golf Club
3. Theoretically, the Blackwolf Run Composite Course
4. Straits
5. BWR River
6. Crooked Stick
7. BWR Meadow-Valleys
8. The Fort
9. Big Fish
10. Brickyard Crossing
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.