Are grass eyebrows an effective hazard?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have seen these used in Texas, by Keith Foster and Von Hagge/Devlin, wondering what most here thought?  (Not sure where this pic is from BTW, saw it on an ASGCA Facebook post)


Most golfers hate that it intrudes in the fw, often shortening the length of their drives, and if you get against the lip, you might have to wedge out.  Of course, the gca would probably say, "That's the point!"  I am guessing supers like it as one less sand bunker to maintain.


It might seem as a useful hazard 300-325+ off the back tee, where the amount of players who get in it would be low, and they would more often than not, trap a good player against the bank, perhaps raising their stroke count on at least that hole.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff -
I grappled with a hazard like that one just this past Sunday. I hit a decent drive but it had a touch too much fade and landed half way up the slope. Hitting my approach, the ball was above me feet and -- just like the textbooks say -- it led to a right to left ball flight; I got enough distance, but ended up in the bunker left of the green. I walked off with bogey thinking I liked the hole and that it made perfect sense. First, because the land/site is rolling enough and has enough humps and hollows that the mound seemed natural and fit right in. Second, because landing on it off my drive seemed a wholly appropriate 'penalty', ie if you hit a longish drive with a bit too much fade, you still have a full shot (and can reach the green), but it has more challenge & difficulty to it. Third, because a better golfer would know how to compensate for the ball being above his feet and how to prevent it going left, while I on the other hand only know it in theory and not in practice, and so my shot ended up in the sand. And fourth: after all that, a decent bunker shot would still have left me a make-able putt for par, and so that fairway hazard did (but didn't *necessarily*) cost me a stroke. All in all, I thought, a very logical and fair outcome, which was a welcomed reminder that the game isn't always unfair and illogical!
Peter

[Tom_Doak]

It might seem as a useful hazard 300-325+ off the back tee, where the amount of players who get in it would be low, and they would more often than not, trap a good player against the bank, perhaps raising their stroke count on at least that hole.

We built a feature kind of like that on the tenth hole at Memorial Park, early on in the project while we were searching for a style, but we didn't emulate it on other holes.  [It's not a mound so much as an abrupt rise to a higher level of fairway.]  It's about 300 yards off the tee, so some of the guys are just going to fly it and not worry, but if a long hitter doesn't take it on, they might wind up in the bunker on the opposite side further down.


As a hazard, it's only moderately effective, because if you wind up more than say 6-8 yards behind it, it's not really much of a problem.  That's a pretty narrow band of punishment and it's impossible to have a tee where that will affect a large % of players.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TD,  hadn't thought about it but drier fw (than you might find in Houston) and gathering slopes might make this a more effective hazard at catching a wider variety of shots.


Not that this would be the primary goal on most courses.  I think VH/D primarily used them on real estate courses to enhance shadows, and thus lot sales.  I think more than a few have been removed after the real estate was sold, too.

[Jeff_Brauer]

From a Facebook post....how about this eyebrow?  Auburn NE is about as far SE from Omaha as Norfolk is NW.  Norfolk CC was the only dog leg par 3 I had ever seen, so I wonder what prompted the extreme designs in NE?

[Tom_Doak]

TD,  hadn't thought about it but drier fw (than you might find in Houston) and gathering slopes might make this a more effective hazard at catching a wider variety of shots.

Yes, but you'd also need enough topo to get balls to gather from a distance -- and if you had enough topo to work with, you probably wouldn't need hazards like this!

[Jeff_Brauer]

TD,


Basically, you are proposing fw cross slope (or other wobbles) be the hazard,  i.e. something similar to Olympic Club. 


I do recall JN (and others) generally dismiss the idea of fw contours being the main hazard to negotiate.  To him (and others) the width of the fw was the challenge, maybe the placement of hazards, but they were supposed to contain shots just as surely as back to front greens.

[Peter Bowman]

I think grass eyebrows add a nice visual appeal and should only punish the long hitters and those willing to take a risk-reward shot.  A lot goes into the psyche of a golfer's experience (it does mine, at least) based on the visual appeal

[Trey Kemp]

Hey Jeff, that picture is of our project at Irving Golf Club.  We used these features throughout the course, the budget for the project was pretty lean so this was one of the ways we added visual interest and strategy to the course.


That particular photo is of the 3rd hole which is about 345 yards, the feature in the foreground is about 175 yards to carry from the back tee and the feature on the left is about 270 yards away. 

[Peter Flory]

From a Facebook post....how about this eyebrow?  Auburn NE is about as far SE from Omaha as Norfolk is NW.  Norfolk CC was the only dog leg par 3 I had ever seen, so I wonder what prompted the extreme designs in NE?

The background is amazing. 

[Matt_Cohn]

Kyle Phillips did some of this at Morgan Creek near Sacramento. It works well—an easy way to add some texture to a flat site.

[Tom_Doak]

Just for fun, I Google Earthed Auburn Country Club.  It's only nine holes now, and the holes run perpendicular to a couple of ravine crossings on the early holes.  Otherwise I would have stopped in this fall on my way west!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,


About the goose....I have tried using animals as targets, but they just keep moving, which really confuses golfers.  Just aim at the target goose.......


One thing I have learned, land features usually need to be taller and larger than you might think to be noticeable.  When you only have a few feet of elevation change, the bank needs to be steeper or accented with a different grass to be noticed, unless properly designed for shadows, and then it is noticeable from either 6-9 AM or 4-7 PM, depending on direction.


Peter,


I hadn't noticed the big ravine on what is presumably the next hole.  It happens, but is rare, that the other side of the street is gently rolling, while this side has a deep cut ravine.

[Pete Lavallee]

Mike Young used quite effectively at Longshadow in Georgia. I recall a par 5 on the back 9 where they caught your attention, high enough to not want to be right behind them.


What is the status of Longshadow?

[Kalen Braley]

I was envisioning something closer to what DMK did at Tetherow..

[Pete Lavallee]

I would classify those more of a wart than an eyebrow!

[Mark_Fine]

I think of eyebrows as tall/hopefully wispy grass not on the entrance but on the back side of a bunker.  As such eyebrows could be and are used everywhere, not just on fairway bunkers, so they impact all levels of players.  These bunkers can look great but they can lead to playability problems especially if the grasses are kept too long and thick.  Balls get hung up and even lost in there and since the eyebrow is NOT part of the hazard it makes for challenging rules decisions.  Some golfers like them some don’t.  Royal County Down is loaded with bunkers with eyebrows. 

[Matt_Cohn]

Matt,

About the goose....I have tried using animals as targets, but they just keep moving, which really confuses golfers.  Just aim at the target goose.......

The one in the picture is a deception goose that lines you up well left of the fairway. 

[archie_struthers]

 




Not a fan in general. Fine with tough bunkers that are really hazards but when you surround them with high grass it can be just too penal. Particularly with greenside bunkers.


If you hit a ball a couple of feet off the green and make eight because you lose your ball or can't hit it out of the heavy it's a disproportionate penalty to the quality of the shot. A lake or water hazard is different  in that it's obvious that you can't hit it there and becomes a strategy decision if you go pin hunting, and typically a lateral penalty is involved.


 Bearded bunker edges may look cool, but too much is a turn off for me personally. I'm more and more for quirk in design but lost balls don't help pace of play either.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

These can be a little tricky from an irrigation standpoint as well. To let the grasses get whispy and khaki colored, you have to basically keep any irrigation off that area. However if these are strategically placed, they will be covered by the full-circle fairway heads unless they are sufficiently large enough to work the irrigation around with part circles. For a small blob like the Tetherow pic, it would take a pretty elaborate design of smaller outhrow heads and some very clever spacing for the fairway heads to really get that right. If the areas catch any irrigation at all, they will not have that desired look, and might grow thick and weedy.


CommonGround has a fescue blob or mound on the (Doak correct me if I'm wrong) 8th hole, a short par 4. It is typically more lush than is desired and not anywhere where you want to go. Effective strategically, but the aesthetics aren't as good as one would hope.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,


Good point, more important than most would realize.  I think down south, some of the ones I have seen are just bermuda, maybe Zoyzia of some kind, perhaps sprayed with Primo or similar.  At least the one in the photo I posted isn't fescues.


I have tried to design irrigation around definitive fescue lines, but never really used the eyebrows as shown in the fw edges.


Agree mostly with Archie, but have left the back of green backing bunkers in fescue or natives.  I have always wondered when members/golfers would get tired of the long grass on the inside edges of lateral greenside bunkers, no matter how cool the look.  Those edges were probably fine when greens were irrigated with a center sod cup, and they were scruffy.  Now that greens and surrounds are perfectly irrigated, it doesn't play the same as it once did, and maybe shouldn't be recreated.  Certainly doesn't follow Mac's admonition to avoid piling up a big score for average golfers!

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Tom,


Good point, more important than most would realize.  I think down south, some of the ones I have seen are just bermuda, maybe Zoyzia of some kind, perhaps sprayed with Primo or similar.  At least the one in the photo I posted isn't fescues.


I have tried to design irrigation around definitive fescue lines, but never really used the eyebrows as shown in the fw edges.


Agree mostly with Archie, but have left the back of green backing bunkers in fescue or natives.  I have always wondered when members/golfers would get tired of the long grass on the inside edges of lateral greenside bunkers, no matter how cool the look.  Those edges were probably fine when greens were irrigated with a center sod cup, and they were scruffy.  Now that greens and surrounds are perfectly irrigated, it doesn't play the same as it once did, and maybe shouldn't be recreated.  Certainly doesn't follow Mac's admonition to avoid piling up a big score for average golfers!

Agree with this. I like when the backside of a bunker is tall grass when it's an extension of the unmaintained areas, but I think it's wholly inappropriate for a fronting greenside bunker. Think about a ball coming up short of the green over the bunker, backing up and instead of dropping into a bunker it hangs up in the tall grass above it. I won't say that it's unfair, just dumb.

[Thomas Dai]

'Don King'?!
atb

[Forrest Richardson]

I have always enjoyed the abrupt "bump". Maybe "wart", "boil", "goiter", etc. are better words than "eyebrow", although perhaps Jeff you were restricting your question to just the "eyebrow" shape and feel?

Anyway — I had a good run as "goiters", or "inverted bunkers" at Las Palomas:

https://www.golfgroupltd.com/projects/links-at-las-palomas/

[Jason Topp]

Langford courses have these all over the place.  I assume they were once bunkers and they seem about as effective as a fairway bunker. 


I wonder how difficult they are to maintain.   They do not seem easy.