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Tim Gallant

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A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« on: September 02, 2020, 04:49:39 PM »
I've not heard or read many recent interviews with RTJII, but this was released today by Outside the Cut:


https://outsidethecut.com/2020/09/02/a-conversation-with-robert-trent-jones-jr/


I applaud the interviewer for asking some interesting and potentially awkward questions. I certainly have my own opinions on Jones' responses, but I'd like to throw it out to others first.


What do you think of his answers and philosophy on golf course design? What intrigued/surprised/frustrated/delighted you the most about his answers? There's so much in there, I really don't know where to begin!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2020, 06:47:57 PM »
I feel honored to be the recipient of his subtle dig about restoring Bel Air.


I was amused at his invention of a word that's new to me:  "the roughway".  I guess they only teach that vocabulary at the big three Ivies and not the others.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2020, 07:59:30 PM »
Bobby's thoughts are always interesting to me. I think, Tom, he took more exception to the whole notion of "Golden Age Design" as a golf-centric term. I recall hearing him say that before — perhaps it was when the two of you appeared at Golf Inc. in Palm Springs, which I recall moderating. Frankly, I enjoyed the back and forth — and we also had Jim Engh to keep it even more interesting :)

Like I've been commenting to many of my friends during this election cycle — more voices, not less !


« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 11:50:04 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Ira Fishman

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2020, 08:38:50 PM »
It strikes me that there is a valid point about being careful about translating terms from historical scholarship such as Golden Age, Dark Ages, and Renaissance into a highly subjective field such as golf course architecture. The terms are difficult enough to apply in historical scholarship where there at least a common body of facts albeit subject to subjective interpretation. In Gca, there are bound to be ebbs and flows of what is or should be considered worthy of positive labeling and vice versa. In 20 years, the Dark Ages could be viewed as the Elightenment and the Renaissance as a pale imitation of the pre-Modernism of OTM.


Ira

Paul Jones

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2020, 09:47:19 PM »
I really enjoyed the questions and his answers. Especially the following quotes, some I had to read twice:


The game has changed completely from the time the course was built in the 20’s. Reversing it back to that age is more of an artistic statement than it is a statement of our time and how the course will play for its membership.

there is no such thing as the golf industry. That’s business.

I think the idea of master planning golf courses with the sale of real estate without the integrity of the sport being maintained, was a mistake.

I think the idea of par was made by par as a value, like stocks and bonds.

I think the combination of strategic with a little heroic now and then is my favorite.

Golf courses are a work in progress. Trees grow. The game changes. What we try to do is make the course interesting, not necessarily hard
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2020, 10:05:37 PM »
Paul -
I think I noted exactly the same quotes. And, while he has a refreshingly-old-school-Mike-Young-like conversational style, I do get a good idea of what he's really saying throughout, which I think is: 'there are many different (and legitimate) stylistic approaches and aesthetic presentations in gca, but the main focus/need should always be strategically playable courses that drain properly'.
I can't argue with that. And, for those who know a lot more about golf courses and gca than I do, a question: Is there any reason to doubt that RTJII knows how to design and build quality fields of play?

Tim Gallant

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2020, 09:10:39 AM »


Like I've been commenting to many of my friends during this election cycle — more voice, not less !


Forrest,


I agree with this, and I really enjoyed reading it as I thought it's a different voice, and one that I haven't heard as much as say a Bill Coore or Jim Urbina. It's important (to me at least) to hear other perspectives, so that you can work out what you stand for, and equally, what you don't. Tough to get that perspective in an echo chamber.


Not that I agree with what he said (will post on that), but I enjoyed the difference in voices.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2020, 09:22:12 AM »
Bobby, for all his foibles, is rarely short of an opinion, and those opinions, whether you agree with them or not, are rarely anything but interesting.



Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2020, 10:27:35 AM »
The thing that most stands out to me, as a theme through the interview, is just how undefined a lot of the concepts of golf course architecture really are.


For instance, when he's talking about the "schools" of golf course design, his short description of "strategic" architecture largely lines up with mine. But he describes the "penal" school in the context of how punishing a hazard might be, referencing pot bunkers on links courses. Which isn't WRONG as I understand it - when your ball is lying in a hazard, you'll find that some lies and hazards are more penal than others. But I've always understood the penal SCHOOL to be more focused on hazard placement than the toll the hazard extracts from the player who hits it. I think of the Road Hole bunker as an adopted concept of the "strategic" school in placement, but certainly a penalizing hazard from which to recover. And then he talks "heroic" architecture, not in the context of architecture, but in the context of a player attempting a heroic shot. I don't think of the 18th at Pebble as reflecting the "heroic" school. I think of it, really, as being more reflective of the "penal" school - the central challenge of that hole for most of us is to keep the ball in play, and there's not really an inherently heroic shot on it, nor is there particular value to be gained from challenging a hazard to set up a shot from a strategically advantageous position. And yet, even though it's a hole that might reflect the "penal" school, the hazards aren't particularly penal in the sense that they aren't generally horrifying to recover from.


So I could suggest that RTJII doesn't really understand the "schools" of architecture, but that's ridiculous. If a guy has a 280 course portfolio and doesn't define the schools of architecture the same way I do as a dude who likes good golf courses, I think that's more reflective of the immaturity of golf course architectural theory than it is reflective of whether or not Jones knows his shit.


And to Ira's point, I have similar thoughts when he talks about the ideas of the "Golden Age" and "Dark Ages" and these architectural eras. It seems to me that a lot of those terms have been popularized through this site and Ran's writings, but it's all pretty subjective. And yet, plenty of aficionados take those terms as gospel. And it's not hard to understand how irritating it must be to be RTJII, have those 280 courses in your portfolio, and a few hundred more in your father's, and to have much of that portfolio dismissed outright by countless masses on golf Instagram who have read over and over that those courses reflect "Dark Age" principles and now echo that same perspective as though it's factual.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2020, 10:31:17 AM »
I like Bobby, consider him a friend, and usually listen when he talks because he does think of himself as someone who thinks on a higher plane.  Sometimes, he succeeds!   :)   Other times, I feel like I am getting a sound bite more than a sound idea.





So, yes, I thought he made some interesting remarks.  On the other hand, he did learn from his father the art of marketing, and I doubt he ever speaks with the press without an objective and/or end game in mind.  He is not one to wing his answers.  That said, a few of them sound like he was caught off guard a bit (good interviewer then!) and he didn't really fully form his thoughts.  Not sure if that was the "editing for length" (often a necessity with Bobby, LOL) or him not really being on his interview game.


As noted, it is always good to hear the perspective of someone who has designed such a large number of courses in a wide variety of places.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2020, 11:53:53 AM »
If anything, I get the feeling that some here are expressing a sentiment I have long thought dangerous for golf design — that a predominant number of "enthusiasts" seem to listen, absorb and form opinion based on the work and ideas of just a very few golf architects.

Frankly, that is perhaps one of the worst "policies" we could have working among the core "believers" of this unique art form.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 11:55:37 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2020, 12:14:43 PM »
It strikes me that there is a valid point about being careful about translating terms from historical scholarship such as Golden Age, Dark Ages, and Renaissance into a highly subjective field such as golf course architecture.

Ira


Ira:


When I hired a full time employee in 1989 [Gil Hanse] and had to form a company, I just wanted to break the mold and not name it after myself.  Gil and I brainstormed on it a couple of times and came up with the name Renaissance.  I liked it on two levels:  because we liked older courses and wanted to celebrate them in our own work, and because the idea of a "Renaissance man" [who could work in every medium and do every part of the job himself] was very much how I envisioned working with others.


I surely never thought of it as cultural appropriation, and it's wild to me that the name has been grabbed by others as a label for an entire movement in the field, but I guess we at least picked a good name.  That I am now passing it over to my associates says a lot about my respect for them.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2020, 12:16:43 PM »
My understanding of the “Dark Ages” was that the strategic school of the 20’s (Tom Simpson I believe) named the era 1885-1900 as such...


Where did Ran’s “Dark Ages” arise from? Is it a product of this website or somewhere else?


Every generation likes to belittle what came before so as to put themselves on a pedestal.

Tim Gallant

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2020, 12:17:19 PM »
If anything, I get the feeling that some here are expressing a sentiment I have long thought dangerous for golf design — that a predominant number of "enthusiasts" seem to listen, absorb and form opinion based on the work and ideas of just a very few golf architects.

Frankly, that is perhaps one of the worst "policies" we could have working among the core "believers" of this unique art form.


Forrest,


I wonder if it's that we just listen to a few architects, or if the number is actually great, but the differences between them are small. It's tough to find too many outliers that don't have similar views to the masses now. For example, I read an article on CDP in Golf Architecture Magazine, and found myself nodding with everything they were saying, but don't know if they're saying anything different to what C&C, Kidd, Hanse or others might say. It's in vogue to talk about strategy, playability, width, etc, etc. Doesn't make it wrong, but it is similar.


It's perhaps less in vogue to say there's no such thing as golf's golden age, which is a fascinating point to contemplate (even if I disagree).

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2020, 12:42:40 PM »

It's perhaps less in vogue to say there's no such thing as golf's golden age, which is a fascinating point to contemplate (even if I disagree).


In Bobby's mind, it couldn't have been a Golden Age if it didn't include his dad. Which is little different from our old friend Melvyn Morrow, who felt the same way about excluding Old Tom from the most important era of design.


Forrest Richardson

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2020, 12:51:05 PM »
Oh Tom...you're inside Bobby's mind!!!???  Please call on us if you need any help.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2020, 01:05:33 PM »
If anything, I get the feeling that some here are expressing a sentiment I have long thought dangerous for golf design — that a predominant number of "enthusiasts" seem to listen, absorb and form opinion based on the work and ideas of just a very few golf architects.

Frankly, that is perhaps one of the worst "policies" we could have working among the core "believers" of this unique art form.


Forrest, I have been on this site for at least parts of 4 decades :o  (late 90's, 2000's, and 2010 and now 2020)

Early on there was a lot of griping about how golfers just followed the top few celebrity architects, then, Faz, JN, etc.  It turns out, this crowd isn't any better than the previous generation of golf design junkies, following only their 2-4 favorites.  Even the tone in most posts, including some on this thread, are telling even if the words are a bit different.  Most here really think they are the first gen to really, really, figure out this architecture racket. 


The majority here think that architecture will cease to improve after Tom Doak and CC.  It will change, because it always has, and a percentage of it will be better than what has come before, as it always has!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 01:07:16 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2020, 01:08:58 PM »
On the other hand, Tom, I think one could make a distinction between the golden age of golf course design and, say, the golden age of Hollywood or Television -- where there were  well established and elaborate structures & systems & economies of scale in place (the studios) and/or when a revolutionary technology and a post war boom and sprawling new suburbs and growing families led to tens of millions of 'early adopters' almost overnight (and a set in every home, and the nightly news delivered straight to your living room). I don't know if this is what RTJ Jr was trying to say, but compared to those 'high- points' the golden age of gca does seem more a function of retrospective analysis and an historical blip, ie there just happened to be several truly exceptional architects living and working and writing at roughly the same time.
P

Forrest Richardson

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2020, 01:14:25 PM »
Jeff B — Well, it's easy to criticize and condemn. Over the years I have resisted in being too vocal about the "narrow" cast we sometimes hear here on GCA. So, instead, I've always tried to call attention to the "other" work and, where it's called for, to praise the great work of the favored designers we hear about...over and over. Certainly Tom D. deserves praise as he has ushered in a new awareness to GCA. We can all be thankful for that.

It does, however, always amaze me how quickly the dismissals come. Recently a post referenced an article about a very accomplished and creative golf architect...and among the first replies was something along the lines of "...never heard of him..." I saw through the reply. Clearly, the remark was a dismissal along the lines of "We can't take this seriously, after all, no one here has ever even posted about him..."

Too bad. Everyone loses when this becomes the 'norm'.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 01:16:28 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2020, 01:15:28 PM »
Peter,


Knowing Bobby, and knowing he is a good liberal thinker, it would be hard to NOT call the post war era, where golf became more readily available to the masses, often conveniently outside their back door, as a very good think in broad societal terms.


That his Dad happened to be perfectly positioned to take advantage of it was just a bonus, and as you say, a random historical blip.  For that matter, have any of the Jones' ever designed a "condescending course" aimed at the masses?  Most of their work maintained their idea of championship quality.  Were they to blame for overly difficult courses through the rest of the century?  No, that too was sort a random bunch of different things happening.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2020, 01:22:07 PM »
On the other hand, Tom, I think one could make a distinction between the golden age of golf course design and, say, the golden age of Hollywood or Television -- where there were  well established and elaborate structures & systems & economies of scale in place (the studios) and/or when a revolutionary technology and a post war boom and sprawling new suburbs and growing families led to tens of millions of 'early adopters' almost overnight (and a set in every home, and the nightly news delivered straight to your living room). I don't know if this is what RTJ Jr was trying to say, but compared to those 'high- points' the golden age of gca does seem more a function of retrospective analysis and an historical blip, ie there just happened to be several truly exceptional architects living and working and writing at roughly the same time.
P


Peter:


I don't think that just happened.  Colt and MacKenzie and Tillinghast and their peers were all about the same age and their careers took off in the Roaring Twenties when the rich had money to spend on golf development . . . and the same thing happened again eighty years later.


It's no different than Bill Gates and Steve Jobs being born at the right time to be the pioneers of the personal computer revolution.  Ten years earlier, and they'd have never been interested in it; ten years later, and someone else would have been king already.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2020, 01:23:22 PM »

It does, however, always amaze me how quickly the dismissals come. Recently a post referenced an article about a very accomplished and creative golf architect...and among the first replies was something along the lines of "...never heard of him..." I saw through the reply. Clearly, the remark was a dismissal along the lines of "We can't take this seriously, after all, no one here has ever even posted about him..."

Too bad. Everyone loses when this becomes the 'norm'.


Who was that?


And why didn't you follow up with a post about his work?

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2020, 01:32:47 PM »
Treasure hunt  ;D
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2020, 02:01:59 PM »
If anything, I get the feeling that some here are expressing a sentiment I have long thought dangerous for golf design — that a predominant number of "enthusiasts" seem to listen, absorb and form opinion based on the work and ideas of just a very few golf architects.

Frankly, that is perhaps one of the worst "policies" we could have working among the core "believers" of this unique art form.


Forrest, I have been on this site for at least parts of 4 decades :o  (late 90's, 2000's, and 2010 and now 2020)

Early on there was a lot of griping about how golfers just followed the top few celebrity architects, then, Faz, JN, etc.  It turns out, this crowd isn't any better than the previous generation of golf design junkies, following only their 2-4 favorites.  Even the tone in most posts, including some on this thread, are telling even if the words are a bit different.  Most here really think they are the first gen to really, really, figure out this architecture racket. 


The majority here think that architecture will cease to improve after Tom Doak and CC.  It will change, because it always has, and a percentage of it will be better than what has come before, as it always has!


Jeff,


I'm not sure I quite agree with this. I can't comment on previous posters, but I think the resources available to hear different opinions now is vastly superior given better accessibility. Just looking at the Feed the Ball podcast, here are the last ten 'guests':


Tim Jackson
Lester George
Dana Fry
Rob Kirby
Rees Jones
David McLay Kidd
Bruce Hepner
Bobby Weed
Gil Hanse
Mike DeVries
(Our own Jeff Mingay and Don Mahaffey were on recently as well!)


And that's just one podcast. There are countless other podcasts and publications available to all, which is brilliant! All this means that I think most here don't just listen to their favourite 2 or 4, but maybe I'm wrong.


Re: your point on GCA ceasing to improve after Doak et al, again, I don't see GCA as something to improve upon. You have different, but who's to say RTJ was better than Thomas, or Coore was/is better than Dye. I don't think anyone will 'improve' on what Doak is doing as long as they keep trying to mimic Doak. As soon as the next wave comes with something different, I think we'll all be excited by what's to come. The tricky thing is, that next wave need the opportunities.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A Conversation with Robert Trent Jones Jr.
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2020, 02:31:23 PM »

(Our own Jeff Mingay and Don Mahaffey were on recently as well!)



Re: your point on GCA ceasing to improve after Doak et al, again, I don't see GCA as something to improve upon. You have different, but who's to say RTJ was better than Thomas, or Coore was/is better than Dye. I don't think anyone will 'improve' on what Doak is doing as long as they keep trying to mimic Doak. As soon as the next wave comes with something different, I think we'll all be excited by what's to come. The tricky thing is, that next wave need the opportunities.


It would probably help if that "our own" construct went away.  I've seen that here a lot lately and it seems unnecessary at best; if someone posts here enough to be noticed, then people know them.  But that doesn't make their point of view or their work any better or worse.


There are a handful of designers now trying to go in the opposite direction from what I have been doing; we will see if they are able to establish themselves.  But I think you're wrong that it's impossible for someone else to take my style and do it better, if they are not "mimicking" me, but seeing something different in the ground than what I see.


The hard part about not being a minimalist in the modern age, is that approach also sells to the members of clubs doing restorations, whereas the guys doing more aggressive shaping on their new courses will not have that market to fall back on.  They will have to rely on poorer old courses that want to transform themselves into something different.