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Tom_Doak

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Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2020, 10:13:16 AM »

How many of the courses above it have you played?


That's the standard, and the difficulty about a list like this . . . very few people have played more than a small sampling of the courses, which makes it harder to compare them.


I've played 4 of the top 10 and 9 of the top 20, and I would put Cruit at #1 of those 9 courses. I have not played Royal Worlington, so I can't say if I would have it #1 overall, but Cruit is unlike any course I've ever seen. I love Hooper, but Cruit is like Hooper x 10. Cruit doesn't have the conditioning of Whittinsville, but it more than makes up for it in pure, rugged, raw golf. Just my opinion, but I couldn't imagine spending time in northwest Ireland and not playing at least one round at Cruit.


Thanks for the response.  I guess we just have different opinions on that one.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2020, 10:19:34 AM »
Any fans of Bellevue GC in Melrose, Massachusetts? A Stiles and Van Kleek nine holer that appears to be pretty intact. Only criticism would be the double penalty on the 9th created by a bunker and tree guarding the most direct line to the hole. It’s clear that the tree was planted as an afterthought and not original to the hole.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2020, 10:48:27 AM »

Thanks for the response.  I guess we just have different opinions on that one.


I can see how Cruit wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. But I thought it had a very cool routing, with one weak interior hole at #8. The conditioning isn't great, and the golf course architecture isn't obvious (a strength in my opinion ... it feels and probably is 100% natural). But I've never laughed more often on a golf course. 


















Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2020, 11:13:49 AM »
Nice to see Toronto Hunt get the nod, but it's probably not the best 9 in Canada. Elk Island outside Edmonton is a brilliant Stanley Thompson design, but I'd be surprised if anyone else in this forum has seen it. You'd really have to be lost or crazy to see it!

Peter Bowman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2020, 11:48:44 AM »



I can see how Cruit wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. But I thought it had a very cool routing, with one weak interior hole at #8. The conditioning isn't great, and the golf course architecture isn't obvious (a strength in my opinion ... it feels and probably is 100% natural). But I've never laughed more often on a golf course. 



















 :o WOW! Based on these pictures I'd venture to say Cruit is very underrated on this list.  Yeah I love Hooper too but these photos justify your claim.  Such beautiful rugged land. Some year I shall get out to play there.  Thanks for sharing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2020, 12:04:52 PM »
Cruit is spectacular.  It's beautiful.  It's quirky.  But as a golf course, ignoring the views and the oddness, it is too high on that list.  Alnmouth Village, for instance, is better golf.  But I couldn't revisit that part of Ireland and not go back to Cruit.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2020, 12:14:53 PM »
I have very much enjoyed reading through the articles that Ran has produced with his raters and it is much appreciated. Given me new places to check out on my travels and perhaps break down the norms of how many of us are conditioned that 18 hole regulation long courses are the best.  Kudos and thanks for the wonderful list to chase where glorious memories will be created.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2020, 12:40:56 PM »
Cruit is spectacular.  It's beautiful.  It's quirky.  But as a golf course, ignoring the views and the oddness, it is too high on that list.  Alnmouth Village, for instance, is better golf.  But I couldn't revisit that part of Ireland and not go back to Cruit.


One thing is clear after reading your comments and Tom's.
I definitely gotta get to Leckford Old(has been scratched from several Southampton/Portsmouth November short day itineraries), Alnmouth Village and Hooper.
Agreed 100% that I couldn't visit NW Ireland and not go back to Cruit-but then that's true of many places in Donegal, which is why I keep returning.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2020, 03:02:54 PM »
For what it's worth I'd put Mulranny above Cruit from the golf perspective and only just behind from the scenery aspect.
atb

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2020, 05:41:37 PM »
Cruit is spectacular.  It's beautiful.  It's quirky.  But as a golf course, ignoring the views and the oddness, it is too high on that list.  Alnmouth Village, for instance, is better golf.  But I couldn't revisit that part of Ireland and not go back to Cruit.


One thing is clear after reading your comments and Tom's.
I definitely gotta get to Leckford Old(has been scratched from several Southampton/Portsmouth November short day itineraries), Alnmouth Village and Hooper.
Agreed 100% that I couldn't visit NW Ireland and not go back to Cruit-but then that's true of many places in Donegal, which is why I keep returning.
As and when you get to Alnmouth Village, I will be insulted if you don't let me know you're coming!
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2020, 06:03:24 PM »
Gleneagles in McLaren Park, San Francisco, "is revered by some as one of the best 9-hole courses in the world."

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/28/sports/golf/at-the-other-gleneagles-a-scruffy-9-hole-course-in-san-francisco.html

David Restrepo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2020, 09:30:18 PM »
Quite surprised Frankston Golf Club in Victoria did not get a mention.


edit: of course it did - #43!

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2020, 09:43:32 PM »
Before I make a series of remarks, allow me to make a full disclosure.  I was one of the raters who input a fair amount of these ratings (there were others who contributed more).  I have played 6 of the top 10, 8 of the top 13, 11 of the top 28, and 13 of the 50.  To those who have offered compliments regarding this list, thank you. 


To those who have criticized some aspect of them (editing errors, inclusions, exclusions, etc.) I would suggest to you that walking through freshly fallen snow with no footprints to guide you is a very difficult task.  Ran took that challenge on and I think got this ball rolling...and it will lead to much improved lists in coming years...because future lists will build on the first one and inevitable errors will be corrected.  If you do not believe me, try two exercises...first, try building an spreadsheet or writing a letter on Commodore desktop computer from 1982-1985 or so.  Second, and closer to this topic, go back and review early "Top 100" lists and see what they contain.  The "Top" lists started when Golf Digest published a list of the 200 Toughest courses in the USA in 1966...and this was following by another 200 Toughest list published in 1967 (both listed the courses alphabetically so there was no #1, #2, ..., #100...#200).


Of the 1966 list of 200, 49 (24.5% never appeared on any "top" list again and 73 (36.5%) only appeared again on the 1967 list...then never on any list again).  So 61% were "gone" after 1967.  Of the 249 courses that appeared on the 1966 and/or 1967 lists...184 (73.9%) have not appeared on any list of top list after 1990).  Want some pretty good "missing" from 1966?  How about Shinnecock, NGLA, Bethpage Black, Plainfield, Quaker, and Interlachen.


Want a doozy of an editing error?  When GOLF published its second World Top 50 (it published Top 50's in 1979, '81 and '83 and then top 100's after that) it included Royal Durban Golf Club (in South Africa) when it meant to include Durban Country Club (the listed included yardage and architects which proved the error was real)...I should note that this was before Tom Doak took over running the GOLF World list.


Tom made the best point of all the comments made on this topic...creating a "Top" list in numerical order is extraordinarily difficult when very few panelists have played more than 35% of the candidates....not even mentioning the difficulty in creating a list of candidates. 


I look forward to much improved 9 hole listings in the future...which will have been led by Ran's efforts with this baby...and may well include some of the missings you folks have cited.


PS...one other factor that could have multiple answers is which 9 holes should be eligible and which should not be eligible for this list.  Categories for consideration might include:


1.  stand alone nine holes
2.  27 hole facilities where they rotate the usage making an 18 out of two of the nines and the third nine becomes the nine holer of the day...and these roles rotate thru thee three combinations
3.  27 hole facilities that always (or almost aways) operate as a unique 18 and an unique 9 (for example, The Country Club and Morfontaine)
4.  36 hole facilities with four individual nines...only one I can think of is Montclair in NJ.
5.  courses with "close to" 9 holes, say 7 or 8, or 10 or 11


Ran limited the list this year to #1.   I would think the appropriate answer is #1 plus #3.  But I do not think there is a "right" answer.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 10:37:14 PM by Paul Rudovsky »

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2020, 04:28:14 AM »
Gleneagles in McLaren Park, San Francisco, "is revered by some as one of the best 9-hole courses in the world."

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/28/sports/golf/at-the-other-gleneagles-a-scruffy-9-hole-course-in-san-francisco.html
+1 on Gleneagles
Have you played Black Oak in Auburn. CA? One of the best parkland type 9 holes I have ever played.


  https://www.blackoakgolfcourse.com/


https://www.blackoakgolfcourse.com/
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 04:32:31 AM by Tim Leahy »
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2020, 10:23:53 AM »
I am surprised Birchwood Country Club in Westport, CT didn’t make the list.  Any nine-hole best of list I have seen previous to this one has always included Birchwood Country Club. 


Gibson Island Club is another course I thought I would see on this list.  I have never played Gibson Island, but heard good things.


Anthony Pioppi wrote a book called The Finest Nines in 2018.  This book ranks the Top 25 nine-hole courses in North America. 9 of the Top 10 and many of the other North American courses included on that list seem to be included in Golf Magazines list.  Tony’s book dedicates an entire chapter to each course with very detailed descriptions and pictures included.  Anyone looking for more information on these courses may want to check out the book: The Finest Nines.


A few edits from a quick glance through the list.


A.G. Spalding died in 1915.  If he designed Eagle Springs, Wisconsin in 1921 that is really impressive.


Northwood in California was designed in 1928, not 1828.


Sewanee is on the Cumberland Plateau about 140 miles west of Great Smoky Mountains National Park.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2020, 10:39:19 AM »

PS...one other factor that could have multiple answers is which 9 holes should be eligible and which should not be eligible for this list.  Categories for consideration might include:

3.  27 hole facilities that always (or almost aways) operate as a unique 18 and an unique 9 (for example, The Country Club and Morfontaine)



That's an interesting question, and I agree with your take that this type of 9-hole course should be included. And your example of TCC was the first omission that popped into my head when I first read the list. The Primrose would (in my opinion) easily fall inside the top 10.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2020, 12:10:36 PM »
I am surprised Birchwood Country Club in Westport, CT didn’t make the list.  Any nine-hole best of list I have seen previous to this one has always included Birchwood Country Club. 


Gibson Island Club is another course I thought I would see on this list.  I have never played Gibson Island, but heard good things.


Anthony Pioppi wrote a book called The Finest Nines in 2018.  This book ranks the Top 25 nine-hole courses in North America. 9 of the Top 10 and many of the other North American courses included on that list seem to be included in Golf Magazines list.  Tony’s book dedicates an entire chapter to each course with very detailed descriptions and pictures included.  Anyone looking for more information on these courses may want to check out the book: The Finest Nines.


A few edits from a quick glance through the list.


A.G. Spalding died in 1915.  If he designed Eagle Springs, Wisconsin in 1921 that is really impressive.


Northwood in California was designed in 1928, not 1828.


Sewanee is on the Cumberland Plateau about 140 miles west of Great Smoky Mountains National Park.


I don't think anyone thought the 1921 date for A.G. Spaulding was accurate (I said the same thing in a recent post) or even his involvement.  The course has several wild greens and one can see pictures in the following article:


https://thefriedegg.com/eagle-springs-golf-resort/

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2020, 01:19:47 PM »
Glad to see 9-hole courses are getting their due.


The panelists seem to be enamored with seaside golf. Highland Links in Truro, Mass., is a wonderful course in an amazing setting, but with very little strategy. Dudley (Mass.) Hill, a Devereux Emmet, has far more strategy than Highland Links, as does Birchwood, mentioned above. I wonder how many of the raters who played Hooper stopped to play Bellows Falls, just 12 miles away? Wonderful design. I don't think many  the panelists went out of their way to find courses, just play the ones they knew.


Can we also stop referring to nine-hole courses as "little?", I'm looking at you Mr. Doak...  :)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2020, 01:33:37 PM »
Glad to see 9-hole courses are getting their due.


The panelists seem to be enamored with seaside golf. Highland Links in Truro, Mass., is a wonderful course in an amazing setting, but with very little strategy. Dudley (Mass.) Hill, a Devereux Emmet, has far more strategy than Highland Links, as does Birchwood, mentioned above. I wonder how many of the raters who played Hooper stopped to play Bellows Falls, just 12 miles away? Wonderful design. I don't think many  the panelists went out of their way to find courses, just play the ones they knew.


Can we also stop referring to nine-hole courses as "little?", I'm looking at you Mr. Doak...  :)


For those that don't know Anthony's book To the Nines. It is worth the time to read it.


https://www.amazon.com/Nines-Second-Pioppi/dp/1630760838/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2AMPNWB0S5ERU&dchild=1&keywords=to+the+nines+golf&qid=1599672729&sprefix=to+the+nines+%2Caps%2C151&sr=8-1
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 01:35:08 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2020, 02:49:24 PM »
Glad to see 9-hole courses are getting their due.


The panelists seem to be enamored with seaside golf. Highland Links in Truro, Mass., is a wonderful course in an amazing setting, but with very little strategy. Dudley (Mass.) Hill, a Devereux Emmet, has far more strategy than Highland Links, as does Birchwood, mentioned above. I wonder how many of the raters who played Hooper stopped to play Bellows Falls, just 12 miles away? Wonderful design. I don't think many  the panelists went out of their way to find courses, just play the ones they knew.


Can we also stop referring to nine-hole courses as "little?", I'm looking at you Mr. Doak...  :)


Agree with you that Highland Links is a nice place but doesn't really belong in this list.


I did not see Bellows Falls when I went to Hooper, because as far as I can recall, your oost just now is the first I've heard of it.  I was doing the best I could - IIRC, I played Rutland CC the same afternoon I played Hooper.


I will try to correct my language, although I hope you can understand that as someone used to working on 300-acre properties, nine hole courses seem rather different in scale!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2020, 04:02:04 PM »
I've got to think little might be fully justified. I checked on google maps the area of the St Medan course I played last weekend and it is 26 acres for nine holes including clubhouse and car park. That's still spacious compared to Strathtay which is c.19 acres with a house in the middle of it.

Niall

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2020, 04:16:50 PM »
The points are valid about "little," but what I've encountered since "To the Nines" came out in 2006 (Thanks for the plug, Tommy), is that people think of regular 9-hole courses and short 9-hole courses as the same. I still have people say to me when I talk about my two nine-hole books, "oh, so par-3 courses."


By the way, for anyone who gets out to Martha's Vineyard, Edgartown is fantastic, but make sure to get over to Chappaquidick to play the Royal and Ancient Chappaquiddick Golf Links. It is a blast. No need for car, they club will send someone to pick you up in an old VW bus when you get off the 2-minute ferry ride. https://royalchappy.com

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2020, 08:15:47 PM »
Glad to see 9-hole courses are getting their due.


The panelists seem to be enamored with seaside golf. Highland Links in Truro, Mass., is a wonderful course in an amazing setting, but with very little strategy. Dudley (Mass.) Hill, a Devereux Emmet, has far more strategy than Highland Links, as does Birchwood, mentioned above. I wonder how many of the raters who played Hooper stopped to play Bellows Falls, just 12 miles away? Wonderful design. I don't think many  the panelists went out of their way to find courses, just play the ones they knew.


Can we also stop referring to nine-hole courses as "little?", I'm looking at you Mr. Doak...  :)


Webster Dudley is a very good Emmet 9 holer with some terrific greens.


As for  Bellows Falls, I have to
Disagree, I played it looking for another hidden gem and came away disappointed.  It has some quirky holes, but I felt the greens were quite plain.  In fact, of the four 9 hole courses I played on that trip to the northeast, it came in a distant fourth.  I enjoyed Hooper, Lisbon Village (Barton, closed) and Mountain View Grand (Barton) a lot more.


Chris


M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2020, 10:01:56 PM »
Tough to take the list too seriously after I read the review of Quogue Field Club.


Not sure Quogue begins in "town" and it goes out to the Quogue Canal- the Atlantic Ocean is on the other side of Dune Road.


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GOLF Mag's Top 50 9-hole courses. What are your thoughts?
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2020, 10:14:49 PM »
Tough to take the list too seriously after I read the review of Quogue Field Club.


Not sure Quogue begins in "town" and it goes out to the Quogue Canal- the Atlantic Ocean is on the other side of Dune Road.


Saw that too -Guess the author was there before the 1938 hurricane when it was 18 holes-God knows I've many many trips to "town" from the Field Club, but they always involved a car and a 5 minute drive-at least.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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