Royal Melbourne Sand ???

[Randy Thompson]

Looking for some feedback on Royal Melbourne sand and bunker design. Getting ready to start some bunker renovation at a seaside course here in Chile. The green chairman played Royal Melbourne shortly before the President Cup and was fascinated with how the bunkers played and how firm they were maintained. He said they we so firm that it didn´t matter where you hit in the bunker, the ball wouldn´t plug but instead would funnel its way down to one or two flat areas. The flat areas were less compacted and played similar to a traditional good compacted sand bunker. Does anyone know if the bunkers are composed of native sand? Are they really that firm? If the sand is not natural, was there some kind of chemical binder used? What percentage of the bunkers has this funnel down process?  Doesn´t this process result in a lack of a variety of recovery shots due to a consistent flat lie. 

[Mike_Clayton]

Randy,


Don't believe you never get plugged lies at Royal Melbourne. It's unlikely but I've had my share.
Nor is every lie flat - there is quite a bit of variation in the possible stances you can get. But the walls of the bunkers are generally firm and the ball usually rolls to the low points.
They are big bunkers - so when you say 'one to two flat areas' - they are big, flat areas.
The sand is native - and there is quite a bit of variation through out the course in terms of depth and 'consistency' of the sand.


They are beautiful bunkers to play from but you have to be competent because there is any number of really difficult bunker shots - no matter how perfect the lie. You also have to be good at dealing with lies with not much sand under the ball.


Google the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf match between Peter Thomson and Gary Player from 1963. In there is an interview with Claude Crockford (the long-time super) where he talks about the bunkers. That, and you get a great view of the course.

[Tom_Doak]

Randy:


The other thing is that the sand at Royal Melbourne (and on the sand belt generally) is finer than anywhere else I have worked, and darker (slightly loamy I guess).  So it holds a steeper bank and a tighter lip than most sands will.

[Jason Topp]

I have played a number of courses in the US that attempt to emulate sandbelt bunkers but have not really seen anything that yields a similar experience or visuals.   

[Randy Thompson]

Thanks Mike and Tom for the feedback. My hunch was the sand is much finer then typical bunker sand. Most likely a quartz or silica angular in shape. We have here in Chile, one area that has natural angular sand in various sizes. I guess I will try some test with the finer products and try mixing with a little soil. Having walls compacted has to lead to less maintenance. Especailly here where we have ten months without rain and the two months with rain are light and not so erosive.

[Michael Wolf]

Among parkland courses in the United States, the closest I've seen to resembling Melb sand was at Milwaukee CC. Milwaukee has some bunker faces that get pretty close to vertical, and the color and texture was a darker and heavier look and feel than typical for that part of the world. I'd describe it as almost like a fine mud the last time I played it. Perfect imo.


Michael

[John Emerson]

Many times the courses with unlimited $ and resources, such as RM, will spray wetting agents in the sand to help retain moisture thus creating a more compacted and solid surface.  This makes a world of difference regardless of sand type.  Not to mention, that they may even run a blacktop compactor over the sand.  This is a labor intensive process, as well as, just about any other type of bunker work. 

[Mike_Clayton]

Many times the courses with unlimited $ and resources, such as RM, will spray wetting agents in the sand to help retain moisture thus creating a more compacted and solid surface.  This makes a world of difference regardless of sand type.  Not to mention, that they may even run a blacktop compactor over the sand.  This is a labor intensive process, as well as, just about any other type of bunker work.

John,


I messaged the super at Metro - who used to work at Royal Melbourne.
Nor is Royal Melbourne as course in need to an unlimited budget. I'm sure they don't go short but it's not a hugely expensive course to maintain. Aside, of course, that its 36 holes and a huge property.


His reply:


"I doubt whether are treating bunkers on mass, where as they would, as do we, treat edges that require compaction with wetting agent to help bind and consolidate. Bunker faces and bases are dampened and possibly wheel-rolled with a run about or bunker rake (machine). I doubt they use rollers.[/font]
Its like the beach, the sand close to the water is firm and the sand near the dunes is dry and loose".[/font]
[/font]

[Kevin Pallier]

Mike

With the winds that whip up in Melbourne from time to time do the sandbelt courses loose much sand and need topping up?

[Matthew Rose]

I played Commonwealth in a steady rain and I swore it looked purplish in color. Perhaps it was just the lighting.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mike

With the winds that whip up in Melbourne from time to time do the sandbelt courses loose much sand and need topping up?

It doesn't seem so - you rarely see windblown sand outside of a bunker. Unlike Barnbougle where the wind really does whip the sand around.

[mike_beene]

Do you end up with a little steeper approach and more square face.? Are you going low bounce or at least grinding the heel? Our bunkers are supposed to play like a version of RM but we still have a touch to much sand in the faces. It is getting to where you don't plug up the wall.

[Mike_Clayton]

Do you end up with a little steeper approach and more square face.? Are you going low bounce or at least grinding the heel? Our bunkers are supposed to play like a version of RM but we still have a touch to much sand in the faces. It is getting to where you don't plug up the wall.

I wouldn't say the bunkers were wildly inconsistent - but they certainly aren't consistent and thus there are no hard and fast rules. When it's firm, yes, you need to get steep and hit close to the ball. Those who don't - i.e hit too far behind the ball - bounce the leading edge into the middle of the ball and immediately complain that 'these bunker are like concrete!"


The beauty of the sandbelt bunkers is you have to read every lie on its merits - and understand how to put the sole of the club into the sand.

[Mark Pearce]

The beauty of the sandbelt bunkers is you have to read every lie on its merits - and understand how to put the sole of the club into the sand.

Two things that really struck me playing golf in Australia 4 years ago.  First, every bugger you play with talks about grass.  No-one in the UK talks about grass.  Secondly, every Australian golfer I played with, even the hackers, could play out of sand.  Indeed I saw one of the best bunker shots I have ever seen played hit by a mid-teens handicapper.

[Randy Thompson]

The beauty of the sand belt bunkers is you have to read every lie on its merits - and understand how to put the sole of the club into the sand.

So on one end of the scale, you forfeit a variety of stance/recovery shots but are creating a real hazard that is inconsistent in sand depth and compaction. The player must learn to evaluate what are the base conditions of the current lie and based on those findings, execute the required shot or pay the price. A good way to separate the good bunker players from the bad. Unique that for sure and I would love to have such a property with such natural sand conditions and would do everything to preserve and maintain it. I also believe if done correctly it should be less maintenance. The other aspect I like in this particular situation is that the course is an older course and lacks yardage, so such a change will increase the difficulty. Which leads to my concerns. At least two thirds of the membership is elderly and high handicap and this could be a hard swallow for them. If you don´t have the natural conditions but can create something similar does the overall concept merit consideration in future renovations? I think a lot depends on your market and our market freaks out over a false front on a green or a green with any movement.

[jeffwarne]

Do you really want all bunker shots to be flat and all balls to roll to the same place in a hazard?


RM bunkers have a sense of place that suits their environment.
I would hope a golf course built elsewhere would have its own sense of place and unique challenges.


I'm always amazed at some of the lectures I get from members on what the qualities of a bunker lip,stance, lie and sand should be.
Isn't there certain skill in avoiding buried lies  and escaping them once encountered?
We're constantly making bunkers easier and more consistent(at no small cost), yet fairways are becoming hazards from which no one save elite experts dare use a wedge(at no small cost).
What's next? water hazards can only be one inch deep to insure a consistent recovery?

[Jeff Schley]

When I played down under in 2019 I specifically remember that Metropolitan Club had hard pan bunkers almost. All of us were shocked and of course they are known for their tremendous shaped bunkers cutting into the green complexes. However once in them there was nary a spec of sand. It was almost all hard compact. I bladed I think all of my bunker shots until trying to get creative and putting out of one, almost in jest, but probably more safely than using my sand wedge. 


Royal Melbourne had I thought very consistent shallow sand bunkers with the walls being hardened blackened sand soil it appeared. No issues really, but Metro was a shock.

[Tom_Doak]

When I played down under in 2019 I specifically remember that Metropolitan Club had hard pan bunkers almost. All of us were shocked and of course they are known for their tremendous shaped bunkers cutting into the green complexes. However once in them there was nary a spec of sand. It was almost all hard compact. I bladed I think all of my bunker shots until trying to get creative and putting out of one, almost in jest, but probably more safely than using my sand wedge. 

Royal Melbourne had I thought very consistent shallow sand bunkers with the walls being hardened blackened sand soil it appeared. No issues really, but Metro was a shock.

That's the native sand, or soil.

[Mike_Clayton]

When I played down under in 2019 I specifically remember that Metropolitan Club had hard pan bunkers almost. All of us were shocked and of course they are known for their tremendous shaped bunkers cutting into the green complexes. However once in them there was nary a spec of sand. It was almost all hard compact. I bladed I think all of my bunker shots until trying to get creative and putting out of one, almost in jest, but probably more safely than using my sand wedge. 


Royal Melbourne had I thought very consistent shallow sand bunkers with the walls being hardened blackened sand soil it appeared. No issues really, but Metro was a shock.

Jeff,


I've been a member at Metro for 45 years -- and I have to say it's not my experience. But, maybe I'm just used to them.
Either way, as is always the case with bunkers and their condition it's a discussion two people can only have standing in the bunker to ensure they are talking about the same thing


One man's 'concrete' is another man's idea of a perfect lie.


And, back when Australia manufactured golf clubs (up until the late 1970s) they were all made in Sydney where the bunker sand at the best courses as soft and deep. All the sand irons had wide soles and lots of bounce - perfect for Sydney but completely useless in Melbourne.

[Jeff Schley]

When I played down under in 2019 I specifically remember that Metropolitan Club had hard pan bunkers almost. All of us were shocked and of course they are known for their tremendous shaped bunkers cutting into the green complexes. However once in them there was nary a spec of sand. It was almost all hard compact. I bladed I think all of my bunker shots until trying to get creative and putting out of one, almost in jest, but probably more safely than using my sand wedge. 


Royal Melbourne had I thought very consistent shallow sand bunkers with the walls being hardened blackened sand soil it appeared. No issues really, but Metro was a shock.

Jeff,


I've been a member at Metro for 45 years -- and I have to say it's not my experience. But, maybe I'm just used to them.
Either way, as is always the case with bunkers and their condition it's a discussion two people can only have standing in the bunker to ensure they are talking about the same thing


One man's 'concrete' is another man's idea of a perfect lie.


And, back when Australia manufactured golf clubs (up until the late 1970s) they were all made in Sydney where the bunker sand at the best courses as soft and deep. All the sand irons had wide soles and lots of bounce - perfect for Sydney but completely useless in Melbourne.

Mike,Not being critical as it was was my first in Australia to golf. We had caddies (which were members mostly I believe) and one player in my group asked the caddie where the sand was for the bunkers, the caddie replied something to the effect, "What did you expect, this is Melbourne sand belt, not a Florida beach".  It certainly was an adjustment. Don't you feel that Metro's bunkers have less sand than RM or KH? The caddies certainly didn't think they played atypical than normal I gathered. Metro was our first play and then RM followed by KH and I remember the bunkers being so different at Metro.

How would you characterize them as I think us first time Americans were just struggling as they didn't have much sand and were very compacted we thought. Is Metro just different than others in that regard or were we just not used to the sandbelt you think as first timers?

[Pat Burke]

When I played in Australia I had a lob wedge with virtually no bounce and a 56 degree sw with over 10 degrees of bounce
The lob wedge got a lot of work on the tight surrounds, firmer bunkers, and sandy natural areas Especially in Melbourne and the Vines best Perth


The high bounce tended to get used at lot in bunkers at Sydney and Queensland


Reading the lies in the bunkers at Kingston Heath, Victoria, arm and Huntingdale were part of my club selection every time. The difference e in the bunkers was awesome throughout the round in my opinion. It made the test even more complicated

[Mike_Clayton]

When I played down under in 2019 I specifically remember that Metropolitan Club had hard pan bunkers almost. All of us were shocked and of course they are known for their tremendous shaped bunkers cutting into the green complexes. However once in them there was nary a spec of sand. It was almost all hard compact. I bladed I think all of my bunker shots until trying to get creative and putting out of one, almost in jest, but probably more safely than using my sand wedge. 


Royal Melbourne had I thought very consistent shallow sand bunkers with the walls being hardened blackened sand soil it appeared. No issues really, but Metro was a shock.

Jeff,


I've been a member at Metro for 45 years -- and I have to say it's not my experience. But, maybe I'm just used to them.
Either way, as is always the case with bunkers and their condition it's a discussion two people can only have standing in the bunker to ensure they are talking about the same thing


One man's 'concrete' is another man's idea of a perfect lie.


And, back when Australia manufactured golf clubs (up until the late 1970s) they were all made in Sydney where the bunker sand at the best courses as soft and deep. All the sand irons had wide soles and lots of bounce - perfect for Sydney but completely useless in Melbourne.

Mike,Not being critical as it was was my first in Australia to golf. We had caddies (which were members mostly I believe) and one player in my group asked the caddie where the sand was for the bunkers, the caddie replied something to the effect, "What did you expect, this is Melbourne sand belt, not a Florida beach".  It certainly was an adjustment. Don't you feel that Metro's bunkers have less sand than RM or KH? The caddies certainly didn't think they played atypical than normal I gathered. Metro was our first play and then RM followed by KH and I remember the bunkers being so different at Metro.

How would you characterize them as I think us first time Americans were just struggling as they didn't have much sand and were very compacted we thought. Is Metro just different than others in that regard or were we just not used to the sandbelt you think as first timers?

I'm probably the wrong person to ask because I've grown up playing the sandbelt bunkers and they all seem pretty similar to me - but I know them so well. 
I know the right hand bunkers at KH 5 play much different than the left bunkers because there is way less sand on the right because there is some heavy soil there.
The massive bunker in the hill at RMW 10 or the bunkers at KH 15 up on that hill have way more sand than many others just because they are built into higher dune ground.
I instinctively understand (after years of trial and error!) how they can be subtly different in terms of how you put the club into the sand.
Metro, like all sand belt clubs, has a bunch of really difficult bunker shots - but I've always thought it's the shots way more than the lies or the amount of sand that makes them difficult.


One of your caddies may have been Lukas Michel - a member who won the US mid-am and is about to tee it up at Winged Foot and Augusta. But, he's way too nice to have come up with the 'Florida beach' comment!

[Mike_Clayton]

When I played in Australia I had a lob wedge with virtually no bounce and a 56 degree sw with over 10 degrees of bounce
The lob wedge got a lot of work on the tight surrounds, firmer bunkers, and sandy natural areas Especially in Melbourne and the Vines best Perth


The high bounce tended to get used at lot in bunkers at Sydney and Queensland


Reading the lies in the bunkers at Kingston Heath, Victoria, arm and Huntingdale were part of my club selection every time. The difference e in the bunkers was awesome throughout the round in my opinion. It made the test even more complicated

Modesty precludes you from mentioning you won the Victorian Open at Victoria - a course with quite 'inconsistent' bunkers and where the ability to read a lie is critical - or you'll have your fair share of bladed bunker shots.


It's time you came back and played the course - it's quite different now and I think you'd like the changes.

[jeffwarne]

When I played down under in 2019 I specifically remember that Metropolitan Club had hard pan bunkers almost. All of us were shocked and of course they are known for their tremendous shaped bunkers cutting into the green complexes. However once in them there was nary a spec of sand. It was almost all hard compact. I bladed I think all of my bunker shots until trying to get creative and putting out of one, almost in jest, but probably more safely than using my sand wedge. 


Royal Melbourne had I thought very consistent shallow sand bunkers with the walls being hardened blackened sand soil it appeared. No issues really, but Metro was a shock.

Jeff,


I've been a member at Metro for 45 years -- and I have to say it's not my experience. But, maybe I'm just used to them.
Either way, as is always the case with bunkers and their condition it's a discussion two people can only have standing in the bunker to ensure they are talking about the same thing


One man's 'concrete' is another man's idea of a perfect lie.


And, back when Australia manufactured golf clubs (up until the late 1970s) they were all made in Sydney where the bunker sand at the best courses as soft and deep. All the sand irons had wide soles and lots of bounce - perfect for Sydney but completely useless in Melbourne.

Mike,Not being critical as it was was my first in Australia to golf. We had caddies (which were members mostly I believe) and one player in my group asked the caddie where the sand was for the bunkers, the caddie replied something to the effect, "What did you expect, this is Melbourne sand belt, not a Florida beach".  It certainly was an adjustment. Don't you feel that Metro's bunkers have less sand than RM or KH? The caddies certainly didn't think they played atypical than normal I gathered. Metro was our first play and then RM followed by KH and I remember the bunkers being so different at Metro.

How would you characterize them as I think us first time Americans were just struggling as they didn't have much sand and were very compacted we thought. Is Metro just different than others in that regard or were we just not used to the sandbelt you think as first timers?

I'm probably the wrong person to ask because I've grown up playing the sandbelt bunkers and they all seem pretty similar to me - but I know them so well. 
I know the right hand bunkers at KH 5 play much different than the left bunkers because there is way less sand on the right because there is some heavy soil there.
The massive bunker in the hill at RMW 10 or the bunkers at KH 15 up on that hill have way more sand than many others just because they are built into higher dune ground.
I instinctively understand (after years of trial and error!) how they can be subtly different in terms of how you put the club into the sand.
Metro, like all sand belt clubs, has a bunch of really difficult bunker shots - but I've always thought it's the shots way more than the lies or the amount of sand that makes them difficult.

Aaah the days when bunkers were hazards.....and had sand that required experience and judgement...not crushed white granite from Ohio where nearly any presentation of flailing bounce will do.
Good news is now moist ultratight fairways are hazards so there is that.
It is tricky now to play a runup through the fairway though when you're hoping to end up in the bunker if you miss.

[Pat Burke]

Ahh Mike, I miss Australia a lot
The courses and the people that were so good to me


I should have moved there and tried to teach the game. Would have been a great thing!