Longest forced carries from fairway

[Matt_Cohn]

The threads I found about forced carries all talked about tee shots. What are the longest/toughest forced carries that are not on the tee shot? I'm interested in shots that provide no other option, like 7 at Pine Valley.

Edit/addition: I’m more interested in the length of the unusable ground itself, i.e. 130 over HHA on #7 at Pine Valley even if the shot itself might typically be from another 100 yards back. The forced carry on #13 at Augusta is 10 yards. Etc.

Architects, is there a length of carry from the fairway that is an absolute non-starter for you?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't want to change the intent of the thread but it isn't just the length of the forced carry but how far you have to carry the shot to clear the stuff. At PV, the position of Hell's half acre makes it a longer carry than 130 yards for me on my second shot. The same is true for 17 at Baltusrol.

[Matt_Cohn]

I don't want to change the intent of the thread but it isn't just the length of the forced carry but how far you have to carry the shot to clear the stuff. At PV, the position of Hell's half acre makes it a longer carry than 130 yards for me on my second shot. The same is true for 17 at Baltusrol.

I'm interested in both. People in the fairway will be playing from different yardages, so one can only give a very general range for shot length needed. But one can be exact about minimum necessary distance.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
Not sure how to answer your question?  The length of most forced carries (outside of a tee shot) totally depends on the tee shot.  A two foot wide ditch directly in front of a green can require a 150 yard forced carry if you are that far away.  As a rule of thumb anything more than 100 yards of actual forced carry from edge to edge is probably the max and than is even too far.  Just to clarify, the width of Hell’s Half Acre to cross is 95 yards.  But if you only hit your tee shot 200 yards from the main tees you have roughly 210 yards to clear it or else you pitch it another 100 yards forward and then play over.  I think the 100 yard max width answers your question although sometimes the architect gets presented with situations that dictate something more and usually they are not happy at all about that.

[Ally Mcintosh]

My favourite kind of forced carry on a second shot is where there is big elevation change so you need a sharp landform to transition you from one area of fairway to a next. These can be quite short in length. They are all about elevation. I am contemplating building one of these myself at the moment.


I’m not so keen on long carries where there is no other alternative, especially where it is tight at the landing zone. I can think of quite a few examples but holes like 12 at Tralee are just too penal.


Versions of Hell’s half acre like 7 at West Cliffs or 15 at Boston work fine though. Ball findable if you don’t make it as well.

[Ira Fishman]

Does number 4 at Lahinch count?


Ira

[Thomas Dai]

What level of player do folks have in mind here?
Men, women, Pro's, elite amateurs, ourselves, our age group, young juniors, short hitting older generation men and ladies who still wish to continue playing the game?
Forced carries are penal and forced carries further along a hole cannot always be resolved by playing from a more forward tee.
atb

[Matt_Cohn]

What level of player do folks have in mind here?
Men, women, Pro's, elite amateurs, ourselves, our age group, young juniors, short hitting older generation men and ladies who still wish to continue playing the game?
Forced carries are penal and forced carries further along a hole cannot always be resolved by playing from a more forward tee.
atb

For a golf course in general.

[Thomas Dai]

What level of player do folks have in mind here?
Men, women, Pro's, elite amateurs, ourselves, our age group, young juniors, short hitting older generation men and ladies who still wish to continue playing the game?
Forced carries are penal and forced carries further along a hole cannot always be resolved by playing from a more forward tee.
atb

For a golf course in general.

Folks ought to watch or even better play with older generation men and especially ladies. Often Club members for decades, who once could carry the ball further but now due to age etc can't but still wish to play the game, for they are still an important part of the game both socially and financially.
An acceptable forced carry for them given the low trajectory they hit the ball might be a little as 10 yds. And for them climbing down into a pit to recover a ball that hasn't made the carry may not be physically very easy.
Let's keep these folks playing and wanting to play.
atb

[Carl Rogers]

This is the problem with Riverfront No. 18 due to the wetland carry on the second shot.
The wetland carry itself is about 90 yards, but the overall, for me is usually 185 yards or so, off a usually slightly irregular or hanging lie.
I accept the challenge, but this carry is highly problematic for many.  Some groups at Riverfront have instituted local rules permitting a drop on the far side of the carry.

[Tommy Williamsen]

There are a few holes at Ballyhack where my wife has to lay up short of a forced carry (4, 8, 14, and 16) with her second shot because the carry would be too far. She accepts it as just part of the game, though it would make me crazy to do the same.

[Tom_Doak]

A lot of women golfers can only carry 60 or 70 yards, and that's if you've got them lined up right at the edge of the hazard.  Mrs. Dye pointed out that meant a woman thirty yards back from a fifty yard carry might have to LAY UP thirty yards forward to get across.


But there's a huge difference here between water or marsh, from which there is no recovery, and a sandy waste where you can presumably extricate yourself with the next shot.

[Jeff_Brauer]

For a decent player of sufficient length?  Doubt it should even be over 200 yards on a par 4, maybe 180 max, and then only if it cannot be avoided any other way.


When considering players of all levels, there is a reason for the old saying, "They should be able to use a putter all the way around the golf course."  If you use a full crossing hazard at nearly any length, someone gets mildly affected.  Right in front of the tee, right in front of the green, or maybe 300-340 off the tee (depending on how the other tees are arranged) would seemingly get the least play.

[Tim Martin]

The par four second hole at Wannamoisett plays 505/460 with the green fronted by a creek. Oddly it isn’t even rated the hardest of the outgoing holes being the number three handicap hole. If I had to make a par for my life and choose between 2 and 4 which is rated number one I would pick 4 every time.

[Sean_A]

The threads I found about forced carries all talked about tee shots. What are the longest/toughest forced carries that are not on the tee shot? I'm interested in shots that provide no other option, like 7 at Pine Valley.

Edit/addition: I’m more interested in the length of the unusable ground itself, i.e. 130 over HHA on #7 at Pine Valley even if the shot itself might typically be from another 100 yards back. The forced carry on #13 at Augusta is 10 yards. Etc.

Architects, is there a length of carry from the fairway that is an absolute non-starter for you?

Matt

I don't know about longest forced carries, but I am finding holes like 13 and 17 at North Berwick to be very difficult into a decent wind. The charm of these holes is really about having a decent success rate. More and more I am forced to lay up on 17. I haven't quite convinced myself that laying up on 13 is OK 😎. Fortunately both holes generally offer a recovery after failure. That said, sometimes a green site is good that it's worth the no recovery scenario. Golf isn't all about getting every Tom, Dick and Harry around unscathed.

Ciao

[Jaeger Kovich]

The 8th tee shot at Skyway 9holer in Jersey City is one of the longest and worst forced carry tee shots ever. From where many play it is Nearly 500ft from tee time fw with A good 350 ft of it over water. Even the most fwd tee requires a shot over 200 ft to find your ball. This is might be acceptable at a private club, but not at an urban municipal 9holer opened less than 5 years ago.

[Matt_Cohn]

So nothing longer than the ~100 yard minimum carry on 7 at Pine Valley?

[Michael Essig]

I can speak from playing experience at my home course 120 is too much, especially into a prevailing 15 mph wind.  A shot of that length is impossible for a typical woman and many higher handicappers.  But what is on the other side matters, and as some have pointed out in this thread is it water or sand; one cannot be recovered from.


Also, any carry is really 15-25 yards longer because you have to lay back a little bit, and that assumes you hit the tee shot the exact distance you wanted.  Also, that number is to carry only to the waters edge; the middle of the green is another 10 yards.


Saturday, in our club championship, with winds gusting 30+ (which is not uncommon) it was a 4-hybrid layup (water starts about 200 yds off the tee, which is a 210-215 yd club with roll) which I intended to finish at 175-180 to give me a little margin of error or a slight drop in wind.  It ballooned a little in the wind necessitating a 5 iron (195 yard club) from 163 yards which barely carried the water.


If the green was set-back 20 or 30 yards from the water, there is a margin for error and allowing for using a longer club that if not struck perfectly will still carry the water, but tucked against the water - think 18th at Bay Hill - you either find the green or dunk it.   Also, if the water was angled at the landing area so you could attempt to hit something longer off the tee and play more into a neck, then there is a risk reward for all players including accurate women or older men who could challenge the water a little and shorten their carry on their 2nd shot.   


The result is the #1 handicap hole despite being only 342 from the white tees, and IMHO, a terrible golf hole. 

[Carl Nichols]

So nothing longer than the ~100 yard minimum carry on 7 at Pine Valley?

Matt:
The longest I can think of here in the Washington, DC area is the par 5 9th on Congressional Blue, where the third shot plays over a  ravine.  But it's not 100 yards--it's probably more like a 60-70 yard carry [from where the fairway ends to where it begins again in front of, and well below, the green]. 

[Ira Fishman]

So nothing longer than the ~100 yard minimum carry on 7 at Pine Valley?

Matt:
The longest I can think of here in the Washington, DC area is the par 5 9th on Congressional Blue, where the third shot plays over a  ravine.  But it's not 100 yards--it's probably more like a 60-70 yard carry [from where the fairway ends to where it begins again in front of, and well below, the green].

Carl,


Not sure if you played Red Gate in Rockville (NLE), but number 16 had a pretty daunting carry.


Matt,


My guess is that there are so few because they are not a very good idea, which may be the point you are making.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

Gillette Ridge GC in Bloomfield, CT has forced carries on eleven different holes and is a 2004 “Arnold Palmer Signature Course.” I hate to lay this at the feet of the King and can only confirm he was there to hit the opening tee shot.

[Matthew Rose]

Most notorious example that I know of is #12 at Lone Tree in suburban Denver. Also an Arnold Palmer course.

This is a par four that requires a layup off the tee and then you get presented with this:



From the ideal spot its about 115-120 yards to the middle of the green. There is no bailout.

[Matt_Cohn]

Most notorious example that I know of is #12 at Lone Tree in suburban Denver. Also an Arnold Palmer course.

This is a par four that requires a layup off the tee and then you get presented with this:



From the ideal spot its about 115-120 yards to the middle of the green. There is no bailout.

It looks like there’s another very similar one on the other nine. Of course you could always putt it around the little miniature fairway! 

[Carl Nichols]

So nothing longer than the ~100 yard minimum carry on 7 at Pine Valley?

Matt:
The longest I can think of here in the Washington, DC area is the par 5 9th on Congressional Blue, where the third shot plays over a  ravine.  But it's not 100 yards--it's probably more like a 60-70 yard carry [from where the fairway ends to where it begins again in front of, and well below, the green].

Carl,


Not sure if you played Red Gate in Rockville (NLE), but number 16 had a pretty daunting carry.


Matt,


My guess is that there are so few because they are not a very good idea, which may be the point you are making.


Ira

Ira--
It had been a few years and I had forgotten about 16 at RedGate. 

[JESII]

So Matt...what is it you're driving at?