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Jeff_Brauer

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Slope Ratings
« on: August 23, 2020, 02:28:18 PM »
I purchased JJ Keegan's (a golf biz consultant) book and started reading it.  Fascinating (to me) and concise.  He has a chapter on architecture, mostly how it affects biz, depending on market (i.e., private exclusive, private member, destination, muni, etc.  Not to spoil the party, but basically, he thinks Slope over 120 kills business for almost all public courses and some clubs.


He also basically thinks architects are largely responsible for killing the game by making golf too hard.



He tracked the average slope rating of golf courses built by decade and came up with the following:


1900 - 125
1910 - 125
1920 - 123.5
1930 - 121
1940 - 120.5
1950 - 122
1960 -  121.75
1970 -  124
1980 -  127.5
1990 - 128.6
2000 -  131.5
2010 - 130






Overall, this probably confirms the eye test, i.e., most courses built in the 1930's were municipals, reflecting the drop in slope then. The big jump in slope ratings came in the 1980's in conjunction with the signature designers and relatively easy money.  And the rest of us falling in line.  Of course, length is still a big part of the slope ratings, so backdating a late 1900's system to courses built shorter 100 years ago, makes some sense.


For instance, in a ranking of architects by slope rating, the lowest average ratings were:


William Bell,
Tom Bendelow
Press Maxwell
Perry Maxwell,
Geoff Cornish,
Donald Ross,
Ron Garl
MacKenzie
Raynor
Colt and Allison


I am going to guess that besides length, most people forget how many 9 hole muni's the Maxwell's did across the Midwest.  Similar to Ross.  Geoff C specialized in playable courses, and Ron Garl works mostly in Florida, with courses probably catering to seniors (although his best known ones are pretty testy, I think.


Now here is a shocker, he ranks gca by slope highest average slope ratings....

Top Ten starting with no. 1....


Norman
Nicklaus
Fazio
RTJII
Pete Dye
Rees Jones
Arnold Palmer
Weiskoph/Morrish
Gary Player
Jeff Brauer :o


Note, he reviewed USGA ratings for sampled courses of every architect.  He picked 27 of my courses, about half.  The numbers played for each architect vary.  I also suspect Colbert Hills and the Quarry, both at 151, raising my average, without measuring many of my muni's, but the numbers are what the numbers are.  I feel shame. :-[


The middle 8 architects of those who he had surveyed,:


11 Art Hills
12 CB Mac
13 RTJ
14 Tom Doak (He notes some of his post 2013 courses not in USGA data base)
15 C and C (He notes Sand Hills isn't in the USGA data base)
16 Flynn
17 Hurdzan
18 Tillie


Interesting numbers, if nothing else.  Today's (the last decade) slope is 5% higher than 100 years ago. You would think with better equipment and being bigger and stronger, maybe that would be in line to roughly make golf equal?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff Schley

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2020, 02:47:20 PM »
Jeff good digging there.  A couple thoughts:
  • The slopes are based on the back tees I assume?
  • With the average difficulty of a course being 113, it seems no era has made courses for this demographic on average. May have to play from the ladies tees to get down that low at most courses.
  • I wouldn't have guessed Norman, as Nicklaus was my guess on highest slope.
  • In the old days you couldn't move thousands of yards of earth nearly as easy as in the later eras due to heavy machinery, thus you worked with what you had for hazards.
  • I don't view slopes as being perfectly linear in difficulty, for example the jump from 110-120 is not as big of a jump as 120-130 or 130-140.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2020, 02:57:05 PM »
Yes, the slope ratings are from the back tees.  OMG if they weren't!


Good points you make there.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2020, 04:05:13 PM »
I won’t argue that courses are built harder than they need to be for most golfers.  However, a few comments.  First of all, few golfers play from the back tees so this is not really a good measurement.  Second, many back tees have been added for scorecard purposes only.  It would interesting to see the average slope rating from the main tees.  Third, a long time ago I questioned the “slope rating process” so I volunteered to get certified which I did.  I completed the day long course and learned just how subjective the process really is.  Honestly I don’t put a lot of faith in the slope ratings of any golf course.  I am only partially joking when I say most slope ratings are a function of how good the free lunch was and will they allow you back to play a free round of golf  :(  This is the reason we all go to different courses and shake our heads at the numbers. 

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2020, 05:19:02 PM »
I won’t argue that courses are built harder than they need to be for most golfers.  However, a few comments.  First of all, few golfers play from the back tees so this is not really a good measurement.  Second, many back tees have been added for scorecard purposes only.  It would interesting to see the average slope rating from the main tees.  Third, a long time ago I questioned the “slope rating process” so I volunteered to get certified which I did.  I completed the day long course and learned just how subjective the process really is.  Honestly I don’t put a lot of faith in the slope ratings of any golf course.  I am only partially joking when I say most slope ratings are a function of how good the free lunch was and will they allow you back to play a free round of golf  :(  This is the reason we all go to different courses and shake our heads at the numbers.
Mark - I'm surprised you had such a bad experience determining the slope ratings of a golf course. I have several friends who fulfill this function for our local association and they all take the process very seriously... because they know what they determine will live with the course for years to come. While I haven't actually sloped a course I did participate in a mini-course on the subject when I was a member of the executive committee of the SC Golf Association. It seemed very straight forward to me, with measurements mostly determining the final outcome and subjective opinion having little impact. Our folks don't get a free lunch for their efforts, but they do, usually, get to play the course the afternoon of their visit.

What part of the sloping process did you find was so subjective? In your experience, how much impact did that have on the final outcome?

I do agree with you that I would like to see a comparison of the "main" tee slopes instead of the back tees. There are a good number of courses in our area that are very proud of their high slopes from the back tees because they think it improves their chance of being ranked higher than they would be otherwise. Golf Digest used to have a "resistance to scoring" element to their rankings that was important to the final outcome (maybe they still do, I don't know). This caused some courses (IMO) to make their back tee setup as difficult as possible to try and enhance their GD ranking. Not sure if that sort of thinking is still prevalent.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

SL_Solow

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2020, 06:30:45 PM »
Mark,  Where did you take the instruction and how many ratings did you conduct?  In Chicago we have a deep bench of experienced raters and when new raters get involved, they are sent as part of a team so that they get appropriate experience. We don't get many complaints.


Of course each of the tees on a course is given a separate slope rating.  Thus it remains important that a player selects the tees which allow him/her to feel comfortable.  But I note that the architects during the Golden Age built for a broader range of player because the custom of building multiple sets of tees was not in vogue.  It is a matter of taste which model one prefers but if an owner wants a real difficult course with a high course rating and a high slope, building back tees is one method to get to that goal.  Thus comparing the back tees from different eras may be misleading.  Query how classic courses that have built new tees fare in this analysis?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 08:34:17 AM by SL_Solow »

Mark_Fine

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2020, 08:18:00 PM »
I took the slope rating course at Fox Hill GC in PA.  In all fairness it was probably 20 years ago so maybe things have changed for the better since then.  That said, I still don't believe most of the slope ratings that I come across and I play (or at least used to play/see) a lot of golf courses every year prior to Covid.  I found the process very subjective.  Yes some aspects are distance related and everything is geared around what you would expect from a "bogie" golfer but there is still a great amount of subjectivity.  We did practice slope ratings that day with the group that was getting certified at Fox Hill and the ratings were all over the map.  Something for example like gauging the difficulty of the green surfaces/green surrounds is very subjective and the numbers showed it. 


I am sure there are many teams of slope raters that are very good at what they do and take the process very seriously but just like doing "course rankings", it all comes down to the individual raters.


i just completed a major renovation at Bethlehem GC in PA and it will be interesting to see how the new slope ratings come back (we have some more forward tees to add this fall so it might be a while till it gets reviewed).  I guess I really don't care how it shakes out but it will be quite interesting to see.  I have just seen too many slope ratings where I shake my head and say what were they thinking.  Sorry. 
 

Lou_Duran

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2020, 08:34:18 PM »
I won’t argue that courses are built harder than they need to be for most golfers.  However, a few comments.  First of all, few golfers play from the back tees so this is not really a good measurement.  Second, many back tees have been added for scorecard purposes only.  It would interesting to see the average slope rating from the main tees.  Third, a long time ago I questioned the “slope rating process” so I volunteered to get certified which I did.  I completed the day long course and learned just how subjective the process really is.  Honestly I don’t put a lot of faith in the slope ratings of any golf course.  I am only partially joking when I say most slope ratings are a function of how good the free lunch was and will they allow you back to play a free round of golf  :(  This is the reason we all go to different courses and shake our heads at the numbers.


I don't know about your next to last sentence, but I too have a hard time understanding slope and seeing much consistency through the many courses I play.  In north Texas, the Texas Golf Association is responsible for the process and an acquaintance asked me a few months back to join a team that he just took over.  I haven't done any officiating in 2020 due to Covid, but I think I will accept his invitation and do ranking and slope in 2021.  Maybe I will learn that the process is not nearly as subjective as it seems to me to be.


Might slope measurements have changed as a result of the ball travelling so much further for most scratch players and the gap to the bogey man expanded?  Perhaps the greater number and size of features and hazards in modern architecture make the comparison less meaningful.  I can't remember the last time I played a course with a slope anywhere close to 113.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2020, 08:47:27 PM »
Guys... there are a lot of subjective elements to the course rating process, but around 95% of a course‘s rating comes from distance measurements. All of the other “subjective” stuff only represents around 5% of a course rating. You could rate a 7400yd course that is wide open and has few obstacles and it’s rating would not be that much different from a 7400yd course with heavy rough and a good number of obstacles. This is what makes you scratch your head. It’s DISTANCE that yields 95% of the rating. That’s why the process is NOT subjective... most of the rating is determined by formulas dependent on distance measurements. Yes, there are probably 100 subjective decisions that go into the data that is collected when a course is rated by a team, but collectively all of those decisions only have a small effect on the final rating. It’s all about distance. That’s the main reason why the ratings are lower on older courses vs newer... they are mostly shorter... regardless of how many bunkers or hazards they have.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 08:49:15 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mark_Fine

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2020, 11:27:44 PM »
The “course rating” is mostly distance related but not sure “slope rating” is??  Unless something has changed. 

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2020, 12:47:10 AM »
I found the process very subjective.
It's not. Things like the green target are measured. The existence of hazards (penalty areas, trees, OB/Extreme Rough) is measured. The depth of bunkers are measured, as well as how much of the circumference of the green they surround. And so on.

And as noted above, length is 90%+, which is not subjective.

We did practice slope ratings that day with the group that was getting certified at Fox Hill and the ratings were all over the map.
The numbers were all over the map… by a bunch of new raters who took a one-day class?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2020, 06:59:37 AM »
Erik,
Couple things, yes the numbers were all over the map by a large group who all left there “certified”.  I am not convinced the process is not subjective.  Just because a green is 6000 sq ft doesn’t mean it plays as easy or as hard as any other green that is 6000 sq ft.  I realize that a 410 yard par four for a bogie golfer can play about the same for them as a 450 yard par four the reason being that they can’t reach (per the numbers) either in regulation.  As such they are theoretically left with a 20 yard third shot on the one hole and a 60 yard shot on the other and the thought is they are both about the same difficulty.  I don’t buy some of that and this is why when I see I a 6300 yard course with a slope rating of 129 and on the same course from 6800 yards the slope is 131, I shake my head.  I don’t buy it.  That is why I said course rating is more tied to distance vs slope rating.  I just thought the process was subjective.  If is wasn’t everyone should get the same numbers. It is just math - not!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2020, 07:48:03 AM »
Crystal Downs has a slope rating of 140 at a little shy of 6600 yards -- so it's not ALL length -- but a lot of it is.


I have some of the same issues with the Slope system that Mark does.  Mainly, I think there are factors that make a course difficult which it undercounts, such as being on the wrong side of a significant feature up by the green.  But it's a useful proxy for this exercise, anyway.


I'm not too surprised at the ranking of architects by Slope, except that Ron Garl must have paid his way into the top ten. /s   


The one problem with rating courses retroactively is all the changes in equipment over the years.  Tom Bendelow built 6200 yard courses when that wasn't so easy . . . in fact, one could argue that they have stood the test of time because they were the most challenging 6200 yard courses of that day, and therefore the only ones which could survive while their difficulty was neutered by equipment. Meanwhile, Jack Nicklaus and Greg Norman would certainly argue that their back tees are built for tomorrow's tournaments and nobody else should play from anywhere near there.  [Building Sebonack with Jack is probably the reason my courses are one spot higher than Bill and Ben's, instead of one lower  :D ]


In the end, clients are going to tell us what they want, so they're the ones who need to read this, and stop hiring Nicklaus, Norman and Brauer!   ;)   But stopping short of 7000 yards for the back tees usually helps.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2020, 07:50:20 AM »
One thing I do wonder though:  the premise.  If a Slope over 120 kills business for "almost all" public courses, and some clubs . . . does that mean anything?  I guess all the courses in Bandon are an exception, and so are any other good courses which would make this rule seem silly.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2020, 08:59:44 AM »
Most golfers believe the higher the slope number the more difficult the golf course. This may or may not be true depending on whether you are a "scratch" golfer or a "bogie" golfer.

The Slope number for a golf course tells you how difficult the golf course is for a bogey player (17.5 - 22.4 Handicap Index for a male golfer) compared to a scratch player. The higher the slope number the harder the course is for the bogey golfer relative to the difficulty of the course for the scratch golfer. That's why it is called a "Slope." It is the "slope" of the line from the scratch rating to the bogie rating on a graph. The greater the difference, the steeper the line, the higher the "slope." So, Slope is a representation of the difference between a course's scratch rating and it's bogie rating from the same tee.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2020, 09:07:24 AM »
Another thought... it's the Course Rating (scratch rating) and Bogie Rating that are determined by all the measurements and "subjective" decisions that Mark referenced, not the Slope. Slope is derived from the difference between the Scratch and Bogie ratings... and, those ratings are 90+% driven by distance measurements.


That's why I've always thought the ultimate combination would be a course with a high Course Rating (scratch rating) which means better golfers are challenged... and a low Slope... which would mean bogie golfers can also score well on the course from the same tee. How do you do that?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 10:09:13 AM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2020, 10:03:22 AM »
One thing I do wonder though:  the premise.  If a Slope over 120 kills business for "almost all" public courses, and some clubs . . . does that mean anything?  I guess all the courses in Bandon are an exception, and so are any other good courses which would make this rule seem silly.


Tom,


He puts resorts in different categories than the every day course, and without statistics, I tend to agree.  Every day, golfers really just want to shoot about their average score, IMHO.  Not so easy to be condescending or come in under par (maybe once in a lifetime) but not so much that you shoot 9-18 strokes higher than your normal score.   Many have played a par 3 course just to go to the office and report that they shot a 70, omitting the fact it wasn't a regulation course.  But for almost all, that is satisfying just once.


When you board a plane to play golf, you expect something different, in both aesthetics, design, and challenge.


I know you are an iconoclast, but even if you managed to find 100 difficult public courses that break this rule, it would still just be 1% of the total.  The long held belief is public courses generally should be easier, and I will guess that you designed Common Ground with different golfers in mind than you might elsewhere?


To be fair to Keegan, after the table of slope ratings, he says all such lists come with caveats.  He (and I) obviously think the pattern of designing harder courses starting about 1980, coincident with both course rankings and PGA Tour pros getting more involved with design, put the emphasis of gc design in the wrong places, or at very least, a place that comes with inevitable reactions to those actions. That said, it looks like the biggest jump is after 1990.......so maybe mostly awards driven?  Or, like TD says, in the end, the owner tells us what they want, and we usually comply, so maybe the entire "tough is good" movement held sway after GD and others sort of changed their ranking criteria, i.e., took out resistance to scoring as the main criteria?


Certainly the intent of posting this was to discuss the general idea, not to critique the Slope system, which like any system has its biases.  But, such is the internet!


Michael,


Yes, that is the $64,000 question.  And, as suggested, providing shorter tees, and I mean really shorter tees, based on average tee shot length helps.  I have often said the old 7000/6700/6300/6000/5400 model really plays pretty badly for many now.  A better model (adjusted for site specifics) is 7250/6350/5900/5200/+/-4000.


A 7500 yard course with a 6000 yard tee option probably slopes out better comparably, which is not shown on this chart.  Wider fw and corridors probably help, and may explain why TD isn't as high as some others.  Eliminating forced carries should probably help, even if it doesn't show up too much in the ratings.


What really struck me is that the Maxwell's were so far down the list in the 125 range, given their penchant for tough green contours.  Do ultra contoured greens really not bother average golfers, or is it a function of the system only adding a maximum of 0.1 stroke for putting difficulty on any given green?


I know I have taken a look at keeping sand bunkers not too far extended from the green, maybe from the center back, etc. especially on the right side where a high percentage of average players end up.  Push hard for quad row sprinklers rather than 3 row (that actually started when Ken Moun complained pretty loudly about my corridor widths, and he was right, 250 feet wide holds more D players shots in than 210 feet wide.  Watch where I put the native grasses, etc.)


BTW, he seems to have developed his view based on all his consulting at public courses, which do well, etc.


And, while OT, there is this statistical item of interest:


Par 70 - 1,360 courses
Par 71 - 2,561 courses
Par 72 - 6,731 courses.


Nothing we don't know in general, but puts a finer brush on it.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 10:33:48 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2020, 10:59:35 AM »
...
What really struck me is that the Maxwell's were so far down the list in the 125 range, given their penchant for tough green contours.  Do ultra contoured greens really not bother average golfers, or is it a function of the system only adding a maximum of 0.1 stroke for putting difficulty on any given green?
...

It is much easier for average golfers to become skilled putters than to become skilled full swingers. The low handicapper (by 7 or more strokes) in my group is the worst putter, and he hates slopey greens.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2020, 11:18:53 AM »
I am not convinced the process is not subjective.
Look, it's not really a matter of opinion. The course rating system is largely objective. That's a matter of fact. Bunkers are so deep, cover so much of the green, and so on. Penalty areas are so far from the center line of the fairway. Greens are such and such a speed, shaped in such a way, are the dimensions that they are, etc.

The vast majority of the course rating system is objective. A little bit is subjective, like "how would you rate these trees," but even a difference of "a crap load of pines on every hole" and "an occasional newly planted 4' tall tree" or even "no trees at all" barely affect the course rating, let alone a slightly subjective difference between a tree value of "6" and a tree value of "3" on one particular hole (we have joked about how Florida folks are like "OMG a tree! Give it a 5!").

These are just facts. A tiny bit is subjective, but even the wildest swings in these subjective values barely change a course's rating or slope.

Just because a green is 6000 sq ft doesn’t mean it plays as easy or as hard as any other green that is 6000 sq ft.
The course rating system, as I think you know, does not really judge "how hard a 6000 square foot green" is. It says here's the shape, here are the dimensions, here is the stimp, here is the slope/tilt/undulation (relatively subjective, but only three values IIRC, flat/moderate/severe), here are the measurements for the bunkers, here are the measurements to the nearest penalty area, can you see the entire flagstick from the landing area, etc.

Raters aren't putting down some value for "how hard is this green?" and moving on to the next hole. They're measuring a lot of things. That's objective.

I realize that a 410 yard par four for a bogie golfer can play about the same for them as a 450 yard par four the reason being that they can’t reach (per the numbers) either in regulation.
One of those likely puts the player in transition (a defined standard that's fairly objective), while the other has them playing basically a third shot to the green all the time. They're objectively different in the course rating system, and the 40 yards will matter quite a bit.

As such they are theoretically left with a 20 yard third shot on the one hole and a 60 yard shot on the other and the thought is they are both about the same difficulty.
They are not the same difficulty.

That is why I said course rating is more tied to distance vs slope rating.  I just thought the process was subjective.  If is wasn’t everyone should get the same numbers. It is just math - not!
It's not nearly as subjective as you seem to be thinking.

One of the reasons course rating is a bit more tied to distance is that hazards and features along the entire playing of the hole aren't weighted much. For a scratch rating, only the things near the landing areas and green targets are considered. For a bogey golfer, the features along the entire hole are considered.

FWIW I'm the course rating captain of my course rating team, and have been rating courses for over a decade. Hell, nearly 14 years now. (Realizing just now how long I've been doing this… oy.) I've been to national meetings. I've been to many captain's calibrations. Our ratings have been tested by my AGA and the USGA (one club had an issue with our rating many years ago, and the AGA got the same rating, and the USGA team they brought in got the same rating… The members didn't understand what went into a rating).

Crystal Downs has a slope rating of 140 at a little shy of 6600 yards -- so it's not ALL length -- but a lot of it is.

Right. The vast majority of it is length.

Like I said just above, it's also for the slope rating, the "stuff" all along the route, while for the course rating it's just the "stuff" near the landing areas.


That's why I've always thought the ultimate combination would be a course with a high Course Rating (scratch rating) which means better golfers are challenged... and a low Slope... which would mean bogie golfers can also score well on the course from the same tee. How do you do that?

You can of course look those things up, and see what types of things escalate the bogey rating at a faster rate. Distance is one: a course with several 430-yard holes scales up faster for the bogey golfer than the scratch golfer. If the holes are all 310-390, particularly if there are forced layups to about 220-230 for the scratch golfer (so they have the same approach shot distance as the bogey golfer), that'll scale the bogey rating slower. Don't have bad "stuff" that's out of play for the scratch golfer but still along the line of play for the bogey golfer, as that affects the bogey rating much more so than the scratch rating.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jim Sherma

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2020, 11:36:58 AM »
The Course Rating/Slope conversation is always interesting. I just pulled up my posted scores going back to the beginning of 2018 and realized I must play a bunch of difficult courses when compared to the idea of an average 113 course rating:


132 Rounds (Index between 7.2 and 3.5 for this period)


Slope: Average 132.48 Min 122 Max 152
Rating: Average 71.7 Min 68.8 Max 74.6
Scores: Average 80.81 Min 74 Max 88
Differential: Average 7.79 Min 1.00 Max 14.80


I'm guessing that my experience is common. I am sure that there is some selection bias. However, searching through a bunch of local public course I do not see any slope ratings below 120 other than for up tees at a length below 6000 yards. A so-called 113 slope average course is certainly not an "average" type of course in any of the areas that I have ever lived in.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 11:39:14 AM by Jim Sherma »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2020, 12:01:24 PM »
I am not convinced the process is not subjective.
Look, it's not really a matter of opinion. The course rating system is largely objective. That's a matter of fact. Bunkers are so deep, cover so much of the green, and so on. Penalty areas are so far from the center line of the fairway. Greens are such and such a speed, shaped in such a way, are the dimensions that they are, etc.

The vast majority of the course rating system is objective. A little bit is subjective, like "how would you rate these trees," but even a difference of "a crap load of pines on every hole" and "an occasional newly planted 4' tall tree" or even "no trees at all" barely affect the course rating, let alone a slightly subjective difference between a tree value of "6" and a tree value of "3" on one particular hole (we have joked about how Florida folks are like "OMG a tree! Give it a 5!").

These are just facts. A tiny bit is subjective, but even the wildest swings in these subjective values barely change a course's rating or slope.

Just because a green is 6000 sq ft doesn’t mean it plays as easy or as hard as any other green that is 6000 sq ft.
The course rating system, as I think you know, does not really judge "how hard a 6000 square foot green" is. It says here's the shape, here are the dimensions, here is the stimp, here is the slope/tilt/undulation (relatively subjective, but only three values IIRC, flat/moderate/severe), here are the measurements for the bunkers, here are the measurements to the nearest penalty area, can you see the entire flagstick from the landing area, etc.

Raters aren't putting down some value for "how hard is this green?" and moving on to the next hole. They're measuring a lot of things. That's objective.

I realize that a 410 yard par four for a bogie golfer can play about the same for them as a 450 yard par four the reason being that they can’t reach (per the numbers) either in regulation.
One of those likely puts the player in transition (a defined standard that's fairly objective), while the other has them playing basically a third shot to the green all the time. They're objectively different in the course rating system, and the 40 yards will matter quite a bit.

As such they are theoretically left with a 20 yard third shot on the one hole and a 60 yard shot on the other and the thought is they are both about the same difficulty.
They are not the same difficulty.

That is why I said course rating is more tied to distance vs slope rating.  I just thought the process was subjective.  If is wasn’t everyone should get the same numbers. It is just math - not!
It's not nearly as subjective as you seem to be thinking.

One of the reasons course rating is a bit more tied to distance is that hazards and features along the entire playing of the hole aren't weighted much. For a scratch rating, only the things near the landing areas and green targets are considered. For a bogey golfer, the features along the entire hole are considered.

FWIW I'm the course rating captain of my course rating team, and have been rating courses for over a decade. Hell, nearly 14 years now. (Realizing just now how long I've been doing this… oy.) I've been to national meetings. I've been to many captain's calibrations. Our ratings have been tested by my AGA and the USGA (one club had an issue with our rating many years ago, and the AGA got the same rating, and the USGA team they brought in got the same rating… The members didn't understand what went into a rating).

Crystal Downs has a slope rating of 140 at a little shy of 6600 yards -- so it's not ALL length -- but a lot of it is.

Right. The vast majority of it is length.

Like I said just above, it's also for the slope rating, the "stuff" all along the route, while for the course rating it's just the "stuff" near the landing areas.


That's why I've always thought the ultimate combination would be a course with a high Course Rating (scratch rating) which means better golfers are challenged... and a low Slope... which would mean bogie golfers can also score well on the course from the same tee. How do you do that?

You can of course look those things up, and see what types of things escalate the bogey rating at a faster rate. Distance is one: a course with several 430-yard holes scales up faster for the bogey golfer than the scratch golfer. If the holes are all 310-390, particularly if there are forced layups to about 220-230 for the scratch golfer (so they have the same approach shot distance as the bogey golfer), that'll scale the bogey rating slower. Don't have bad "stuff" that's out of play for the scratch golfer but still along the line of play for the bogey golfer, as that affects the bogey rating much more so than the scratch rating.



Eric,


I am with you.  At least they break it down into several subject areas, so that each "mistake" is limited in scope.  I have sat in, and they compare notes later after each in a group independently does scores.


Also, it does seem that the system scales up in a straight line, not an exponential one as someone suggested.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2020, 12:09:01 PM »
A so-called 113 slope average course is certainly not an "average" type of course in any of the areas that I have ever lived in.
The USGA says "A course of standard difficulty has a Slope Rating of 113."

That is different than "an average course" or even a typical course. It's a course of "standard difficulty."

Jeff, yeah, we're constantly calibrating ourselves against others.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 12:11:15 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rick Lane

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2020, 12:14:42 PM »
Would be interested in you guys commenting on this:   At my course in the northeast, the membership strongly believes the course rating and slope of 72/136 for our par 71 course is too high from the middle tees (6500 or so) and the back tees (6800, rated 73.3/138......as compared to Florida courses that some of us play, with water running the length of most holes on one side or the other.   The Florida courses tend to be par 72, rated 71, slope 130ish.  So there’s a couple stroke difference just in rating, then add in slope.   But the difference to us seems to be backward!  We all feel Florida is much more difficult just because of the water? Our scoring backs that view up.


At my northeastern course, I can slice or hook it into an adjoining fairway, and still have a shot at par, maybe birdie, depending on trees and such.   Do that in Florida, and you just made double or triple, and you have not left the tee box yet.   How to reconcile this?    I am a 5.2 index in the NE.   When I go to fla, my index jumps by 5 or more strokes over 30 rounds. The same is true of every single person in my group.  Something is screwy?

Tom_Doak

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2020, 12:20:38 PM »

I know you are an iconoclast, but even if you managed to find 100 difficult public courses that break this rule, it would still just be 1% of the total.  The long held belief is public courses generally should be easier, and I will guess that you designed Common Ground with different golfers in mind than you might elsewhere?

. . .

What really struck me is that the Maxwell's were so far down the list in the 125 range, given their penchant for tough green contours.  Do ultra contoured greens really not bother average golfers, or is it a function of the system only adding a maximum of 0.1 stroke for putting difficulty on any given green?



Jeff:


Where I am an iconoclast is that I tend to treat all courses the same -- as being built for all golfers -- unless a client specifically requests otherwise or a site really demands it.


The difference, for me, is not that I move to make a public course like Common Ground easier than my others.  It's that sometimes I will make a course harder if the client requests it, but my default is not to go there.  [Ironically, CommonGround has a slope of 138 from the tips, which is one of the highest of any course I've built, because the Colorado Golf Associations stretched it out to host the U.S. Amateur qualifying round.]


As to Maxwell, I think the greens on a lot of his courses have been neutered, and/or they are in smaller towns where they don't get the greens up to 13 on the Stimpmeter.  Plus he rarely built anything over 6500 yards.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Slope Ratings
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2020, 12:24:26 PM »

Would be interested in you guys commenting on this:   At my course in the northeast, the membership strongly believes the course rating and slope of 72/136 for our par 71 course is too high from the middle tees (6500 or so) and the back tees (6800, rated 73.3/138......as compared to Florida courses that some of us play, with water running the length of most holes on one side or the other.   



Rick:


My view is that Slope ratings do not compare well across state lines, where you've got two entirely different groups of raters doing the work.


Within a state, these groups are very focused on getting the Slope rating of a course "right" compared to the other courses in the state they know well.  They quite often go back and re-rate a course if the formula says the Slope is higher than Oakland Hills or Merion, because that just can't be right.  So the guys who rated the top course(s) in the state have set the bar for that state, and other courses must fall in line.


But if the highest-rated course(s) in Florida have lower slopes than those in the northeast, then it follows that will also trickle down to the other private club courses, too.

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