"Carts Are Good For Golf"

[Tom_Doak]

This is an excerpt from a golf.com article on how many calories you burn by walking and playing, walking and carrying, or riding, when it got to the part about riding.  Posted without comment:




First, carts are good for golf,[/size] as NPR reports her[/color][/size]e, because they create added revenue for courses themselves: They enable golf facilities “to get more people on the course and get them around the course faster,” Steve Mona, CEO of the World Golf Foundation.[/color]

[JMEvensky]

Sadly, that absolute gospel for about 99% of golfers and 99.99% of club GM's.

[MCirba]

Egads.

[Bernie Bell]

Here's the golf.com article, which says "good for golf".  The NPR piece that is linked doesn't actually say that.  NPR interviewed golfers at Sligo Creek, a local muni just inside the DC Beltway. 

https://golf.com/instruction/fitness/how-many-calories-you-burn-playing-golf-walking-riding/

[Kyle Harris]

Always make it a point to ask in the pro shop of a course with a mandatory cart policy if they'll therefore guarantee the round will be under 4 hours.

No takers, yet.


The best response was at Mission Inn, El Campeon, when I asked why they had a mandatory golf cart policy:

"The course is too hilly to walk."

"Was it too hilly in 1918 when the course was first built?"

[Kyle Harris]

As for the calorie data:


I'm at 1100 or so when I ride and 1800 when I walk. That being said, a 45-minute range session usually burns 700 calories, give or take.

Any time you're attempting to move any amount of weight at quick, high intensity, your calorie demand will go up.

[A.G._Crockett]

If you're talking about lower case "golf", then carts are good for the reasons outlined.  But most on this site adhere to and are advocates of upper case "Golf", and carts are most decidedly a bad thing.  I don't know of a way to resolve that, unless the Golf guys can look at the cart fees paid by the golf guys as subsidizing our rounds.

[Jason Thurman]

This is an excerpt from a golf.com article on how many calories you burn by walking and playing, walking and carrying, or riding, when it got to the part about riding.  Posted without comment:




First, carts are good for golf, as NPR reports here, because they create added revenue for courses themselves: They enable golf facilities “to get more people on the course and get them around the course faster,” Steve Mona, CEO of the World Golf Foundation.

Posted without comment. Also posted without including the subsequent paragraph:


"[/size]Second, carts allow the game to remain more inclusive to many elderly golfers who may enjoy golf but don’t possess the ability to walk 18 undulating holes."[/color]


That subsequent paragraph alludes to a point that I think is undeniable about the positive impact of carts: they allow a lot of people to enjoy the game who wouldn't otherwise be able to. Are carts overused, especially in the US? Yes. Is it unfortunate the carts have become part and parcel of the game for many able-bodied players? Yes. I enjoyed the few weeks earlier this year when my club prohibited carts - the turf and pace of play had never been better (although the pace of play was even faster when we brought carts back with single-riders only, but I digress).


But carts also keep a whole gang of players facing a whole range of physical ailments in the game, and keep play safe on the scorching hot days that are part of peak season in many climates. I was woke enough to walk on July 4th this year when it was 95 degrees outside, but I realized on about the 5th hole that I was being an idiot and should've ridden. And one of the things I'm most grateful for this year is that even though I probably won't be able to hug my immunocompromised cancer-surviving 60 year old mother for another year or so, I still get to play golf with her once in a while because a cart allows her to get around the course.


There's no question at all in my mind that carts are good for golf, even while thinking the game might be better if there weren't quite so many of them.

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:


Yes, but that second part is not the driver of the discussion -- it was point #2, after the CEO of the World Golf Foundation cited the bit I quoted.


Golf carts for people who need them are a no-brainer -- although, as my late friend Archie Baird suggested, it is better to resist them as long as you can, if you want to live a long and healthy life.  [He told me the year before he died that he should have just walked as many holes as he could and been happy with that each day, instead of relenting to getting in a buggy to play 18.]


If cart traffic was limited to people who needed them, they wouldn't do so much traffic damage to courses, and we might not need all those cart paths.

[Jim Hoak]

Agreeing with Jason--I was always one who disparaged golf carts and those who used them.  I still don't like what they do to golf course turf.  But when I passed 75 years-of-age, and had a back injury to boot, I realized that using a cart was my only way to continue playing the game I love and have played my whole life.  Amazing how Father Time changes your perspective on things.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Has anyone done a proper economic analysis of carts vs no carts, including the capex needed for carts for storage, charging, and cart paths?  That is even before the additional opex that will be needed to pay for damage caused by carts, additional electricity usage, etc.  What would this be at a typical course where you may want 72 carts (for a double shotgun under normal 2/cart conditions)


Of course that requires the no cart option to be an almost complete shunning of carts like you see at places like Cabot or Bandon.  Most clubs/courses here in Canada don't have the cojones to go the no-cart option as they are worried about the reaction from their members or fee paying public. 

[MCirba]

The whole revenue question makes no sense whatsoever.

So, if it's $40 to play and $20 to share a cart, just charge $50 to walk or ride.   Essentially, carts are free and just like in society the able-bodied help to subsidize those who are not.

Now explain to me mandatory carts that are the rule at so many courses?

[John Kavanaugh]

The whole revenue question makes no sense whatsoever.

So, if it's $40 to play and $20 to share a cart, just charge $50 to walk or ride.   Essentially, carts are free and just like in society the able-bodied help to subsidize those who are not.

Now explain to me mandatory carts that are the rule at so many courses?

Because guys who walk and carry have been unfairly pegged as cheap skates who aren't going to spend a penny above what is mandated.

[MCirba]

Always make it a point to ask in the pro shop of a course with a mandatory cart policy if they'll therefore guarantee the round will be under 4 hours.

No takers, yet.


The best response was at Mission Inn, El Campeon, when I asked why they had a mandatory golf cart policy:

"The course is too hilly to walk."

"Was it too hilly in 1918 when the course was first built?"

There is an implicit/explicit message here that we've gone soft, isn't there?

Joe Bausch and I recently played/walked/carried at South Park Muni outside Pittsburgh where the 1934 US Publinks was held.   We marveled at the fact that the contestants walked this very hilly course in late July wearing long pants and shirts, including a 36 hole final.   I had a similar experience last year walking the steep hillsides of Community GC in Dayton, OH, where the 1924 US publinks was held.

I sense those folks were made of sterner stuff.

[Tom_Doak]

The whole revenue question makes no sense whatsoever.

So, if it's $40 to play and $20 to share a cart, just charge $50 to walk or ride.   Essentially, carts are free and just like in society the able-bodied help to subsidize those who are not.

Now explain to me mandatory carts that are the rule at so many courses?

This.


The whole premise of carts being essential is bull**** American pricing and marketing.  Courses want to pretend the green fee is $40, not $50, when really they're going to charge you $60 without exception.

[MCirba]

[quote author=John Kavanaugh link=topic=68574.msg1644226#msg1644226 date=1594833557

Because guys who walk and carry have been unfairly pegged as cheap skates who aren't going to spend a penny above what is mandated.

John,

Which is not only unfair but complete bullsh*t because if a club/course has a caddie program I always take one to support their efforts as a former caddie myself.   

[John Kavanaugh]

I said unfairly for a reason. A course with caddies rarely has mandatory carts.

[MCirba]

I said unfairly for a reason. A course with caddies rarely has mandatory carts.

True dat, John K. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Always make it a point to ask in the pro shop of a course with a mandatory cart policy if they'll therefore guarantee the round will be under 4 hours.

No takers, yet.


The best response was at Mission Inn, El Campeon, when I asked why they had a mandatory golf cart policy:

"The course is too hilly to walk."

"Was it too hilly in 1918 when the course was first built?"

There is an implicit/explicit message here that we've gone soft, isn't there?

Joe Bausch and I recently played/walked/carried at South Park Muni outside Pittsburgh where the 1934 US Publinks was held.   We marveled at the fact that the contestants walked this very hilly course in late July wearing long pants and shirts, including a 36 hole final.   I had a similar experience last year walking the steep hillsides of Community GC in Dayton, OH, where the 1924 US publinks was held.

I sense those folks were made of sterner stuff.

Mike,


Cool to see someone mention South Park. My first job after college had me living in Bethel Park. So I played South Park many times the year I was there.


Yes, it is very hilly, but I don’t remember that ever discouraging me from playing and walking the course.

[MCirba]

Mike,


Cool to see someone mention South Park. My first job after college had me living in Bethel Park. So I played South Park many times the year I was there.


Yes, it is very hilly, but I don’t remember that ever discouraging me from playing and walking the course.

Tim,

Yes, Joe and I are inveterate walkers but it was a really steamy, humid morning.   


That and the fact I'm turning 62 in a week may have been factor, as well.   

[John Kavanaugh]

We all need to take a hard look at the demographic we are in and understand there are rules made at our clubs because of a few bad eggs who may look like us but don't act like us.


In my case I have a perfect understanding of soil conditions and could drive a cart on the course after a rain without causing any damage. Sadly too many other fools have caused extensive damage so I have to suffer through cart path only. I'm sure we all have similar stories.

[Ben Sims]

Woof. That’s an unfortunate statement.


It reminds me of how many major players in the mountain bike world are rolling over to the e-bike being a means to get more people riding. Golf went down the path long ago of using the cart as a revenue stream or to “grow the game.” Golf carts provide a tremendously valuable case study for why making something easier for some potentially affects all.

[Garland Bayley]

As for the calorie data:


I'm at 1100 or so when I ride and 1800 when I walk. That being said, a 45-minute range session usually burns 700 calories, give or take.

Any time you're attempting to move any amount of weight at quick, high intensity, your calorie demand will go up.

Apples to oranges no?
Calories burned by moseying around the tee, the cart, and the green equals calories burned walking purposefully to the ball after hitting it, all the while carrying a bag of clubs or pushing one?

[Ronald Montesano]

I need clarification of this point, made earlier by the gentleman from Philadelphia:


"So, if it's $40 to play and $20 to share a cart, just charge $50 to walk or ride.   Essentially, carts are free and just like in society the able-bodied help to subsidize those who are not."

If carts are free, what restricts the able-bodied from using them?

[Garland Bayley]

Has anyone done a proper economic analysis of carts vs no carts, including the capex needed for carts for storage, charging, and cart paths?  That is even before the additional opex that will be needed to pay for damage caused by carts, additional electricity usage, etc.  What would this be at a typical course where you may want 72 carts (for a double shotgun under normal 2/cart conditions)


Of course that requires the no cart option to be an almost complete shunning of carts like you see at places like Cabot or Bandon.  Most clubs/courses here in Canada don't have the cojones to go the no-cart option as they are worried about the reaction from their members or fee paying public.

Around year 2000 the USGA came out with a statement that cart usage costs a club significantly more than the revenue generated. See their publication "Golf is a Walking Game".