9-Ball: Mid Pines vs Pine Needles vs Southern Pines (all holes scored)

[Jason Thurman]

Let’s do 10 and 11 today:
 
I like 10 at Pine Needles. It seems like a lot of people think it’s kind of stupid. Maybe I’m just a sucker for postcard-pretty tee shots… I mean, I like 3 at Pine Needles too. But it just seems to me like a good, solid, risk/reward par 5, if nothing too special. I like 10 at Mid Pines too. I kind of think it’s a less interesting hole, I kind of have a hard time remembering it and trusting that I’m not just remembering 2 at Southern Pines… I see similarities between those two holes the same way I see similarities between 2 MP, 3 SP, and 5 PN.
 
But I very much like 10 at Southern Pines. Again, nothing frilly or complicated. Just the right hole for the right piece of land, introducing some shot requirements that we haven’t seen on holes prior. Carl cites, correctly, that 9 at Mid Pines is the type of hole where a scratch can bogey while a 15 birdies. I would say that’s also true on 10 at Southern Pines, but the scratch player is less likely to see the bogey coming standing on the tee of this simple-looking hole, and more likely to be pissing and moaning about how he should’ve had a flat lie after hitting “position A” from the tee, and that it was bullshit that his approach came back off the front of the green or went bounding over the back.
 
5-2-2, in Southern Pines’ favor.
 
11 is a strong matchup. Do I only like 11 at Pine Needles because of the exposed scruff of sand, which was really the most “rugged” part of the presentation back when I played it? It’s another postcard-pretty moment, but this is also a wonderfully routed hole that drapes on the land beautifully. Meanwhile, I love par 3s that seem like the tee was accidentally placed 30 degrees further left than normal. 11 at Mid Pines has shades of 12 at Bandon Trails on that front, and it’s just a really attractive way to make a par 3 feel uncomfortable in my book. But then, 11 at Southern Pines is basically a perfect short par 4, again draped perfectly on the land, again routed across a section of land that begs for this hole to be there, and again ready to bite the unsuspecting strong player who gets out of position.
 
I think I have to go 3-3-3.
 
Overall:
PN 33
MP 32
 SP 32

[Carl Rogers]

Jason, I can go with you thus far.
But I am less enamored with PN 10 than some.  It might be because the holes preceeding PN 10 and after PN 10, I like so much.
But I do not what I would alter about PN 10.

[Jason Thurman]

Southern Pines has hung in for 11 holes, but these next 2 or 3 holes might be tough for it to overcome…
 
It’s 12^th is a good one, but it falls short as it lacks the compelling land that makes the course's highlights so strong. This is just a solid dogleg left uphill par 4 that could hold its own on any course in the US, which is both a compliment and a detriment, because it just isn’t the case for 12 at Pine Needles or Mid Pines. Both are broad-shouldered par 4s that unmistakably belong on world-class courses. The downhill sweep from right-to-left at Mid Pines is glorious from the tee, while Pine Needles’ 12^th tee shot is just blind enough to feel unsettling. Then you crest the hill and find one of the most attractive approach shots in the county, while at Mid Pines you turn the corner and find one of the scariest ones if you didn’t successfully hug the left side of the fairway. Just a pair of splendid par 4s.
 
4-4-1. Sorry SP.
 
Again at 13, Pine Needles and Mid Pines go toe-to-toe with dueling long par 3s. I like them both! But I do prefer the downhill 13^th at Pine Needles as I find it more visually attractive and recall a more interesting green and surroundings that create more varied recovery options. 13 at Southern Pines is another good hole on some of the less interesting land on the property, and falls short for me here.
 
5(PN)-3(MP)-1(SP)


Overall:
PN 42
MP 39
SP 34


Pine Needles has made a little run, but Mid Pines and Southern Pines both have closing stretches loaded with strong moments. I think this is still a pretty open contest.

[Peter Sayegh]

Just completed the final leg of the triumvirate yesterday.
The first question I asked him upon completing our round is if my personal ranking of SP-MP-PN (in order) was terribly misguided by those who have played the courses more often than myself.Scheduled to play SP again Fri to affirm/alter my initial (absolute) love for the golf course-and to bid adieu to its current iteration, before it's "Re-Rossified" or "Franzed."


I'll try to add to the 9 ball discussion when I digest SP after another play.
P.S. caddied for a young friend today on #2 for the north/south. what a golf course. what a great group of amateur ladies.

[Jason Thurman]

Peter, I'm with you. Aside from polish and a handful of incongruous features added through renovations, I'm not sure there's anything SP lacks on the two more famous and expensive courses in this group. I had a friend visit the area last year, and his initial thought was that he'd skip Southern Pines and come back to see it after a hypothetical future renovation. I tried to convince him to play it now, because A) You and your buddies won't mind a two-digit greens fee in the middle of a golf trip, B) It's an excellent course right now even if it might be better someday, and C) You'll have some context when you see the hypothetical future renovation, and be able to appreciate the course what was there then, what's there now, and what's been there all along.


Keeping the matchup going:


I don't love the 14th hole on any of these courses. I remember a perfectly fine mid-length par 4 at Mid Pines, playing a little uphill, but mostly I remember getting a call from my boss while playing it (I was meeting her in Raleigh and flew down early to get the round in, and she wanted to coordinate evening plans). I remember a tough-as-hell uphill par 4 at Pine Needles - it's a good hole, but not one I loved. And 14 at Southern Pines felt a little squeezed in to me. It's a beautifully sited par 3, but I think it's one of the holes that would most benefit from a hypothetical renovation as I think it would benefit from a little more room around the green and maybe a renovation/sympathetic restoration of the putting surface itself.


3-3-3


Then we have a trio of par 5s. I love the way that 15 at Mid Pines clings to the side of the hill, rewarding a player who risks trouble up the right side with a chance of holding the fairway. It feels like a bit of a transition hole in the routing to me, but it's a damn good one. Just slightly one-dimensional. I find 15 at Pine Needles completely charming - again, if my favorite thing about Pine Needles is the way it blends golf into a forested residential setting in a way that feels natural rather than confined, then holes like 15 are the poster children for that vibe. But again, I think Southern Pines might have my favorite of the three holes here. I love the land movement, the gentle curvature of the fairway, the uphill approach. It's just a pleasing hole to me. And I can't shake the feeling that my favorite thing about 15 at Needles might be crossing the road after holing out. Live by the vibe, die by the vibe.


5(SP)-3(PN)-1(MP)


Overall
PN 48
MP 43
SP 42

[Carl Rogers]

SP #14, I like the hole because it is a hard par 3 in the midst of holes that are not that difficult.


PN #14, for me is good stout par 4 with an interesting green complex on other wise uninteresting ground.


But where we differ is PN #15.  For me, very dull.  The 2 PN par 5's on the back are the courses' weak links.


MP #14 & #15 are good holes but not the stars of MP.

[Jason Thurman]

[size=78%]The last three holes might be pretty easy to score, really.[/size]
16 at Mid Pines is, what, the best hole in the county? I think this one's a pretty clear 5-2-2 hole. I thought 16 at Southern Pines might be the most forgettable hole on the course, and really the same might go for 16 at Pine Needles. Am I missing something on either of those holes?


I love 17 at Southern Pines, and I like being asked to hit some big shots coming down the stretch of a round. 17 at Mid Pines is a fine and technical little hole; I recall being confounded by the line to take off the tee. 17 at Pine Needles doesn't bother me like it bothers some - I like to sling a hook around the corner of a dogleg! But it's a clear loser here for me. I'm going to take 17 at SP for the win, again on virtue of the fact that it's such a great use of the natural topography to create golfing interest. It's a 5-3-1 hole.


And look, 18 at Southern Pines is a lovely hole. When I played Southern Pines in 2018 it had been nearly a year since I had broken 80. I hit a solid tee shot and then stuck my approach to 6 feet, above the hole to a front pin, and managed the two-putt to get home in 79. I'll remember that one for a long time. 18 at Pine Needles is also a lovely hole. When I played it in 2012 I missed my approach shot long and left, and then made one of the best up-and-downs of my life to shoot 77. That's another one I'll remember for a long time.


But I mean, 18 at Mid Pines is an all-timer. I didn't play it especially well, but my performances on 18 at SP and PN cast it into some relief. I've never seen a painting of 18 at Pine Needles hanging in somebody's office and gotten to tell the story of the time I got up and down from long left of the green. But if I had made that up-and-down at Mid Pines instead? Oh, I'd get to tell the story about once a week, because it's low-key one of the most iconic holes in the US.


5-2-2, in favor of Mid Pines.


FINAL SCORES:
MP 56
PN 53
SP 49

[Carl Rogers]

I like 16 at Pine Needles better than you, am otherwise in general concurrence.


In the Pine Needles Clubhouse, I have seen a drawing of the course that started up the hill ..... Hole 18 was Hole 1. Hole 1 was Hole 2. Etc etc


Having grown up on courses that were a fairly scruffy, I will always  be a bit uncomfortable with the more upscale courses, even though in my older age I can afford them.

[Jay Mickle]

As a the ultimate Mid Pines homie I am glad to see the course prevail. What I get from the posting is how differently I see the holes. Over the past 12 played MP +/-1500 times, PN 600=/- times, SP 75 =/-times. Southern Pines has the best routing and is fun but the John Lafoy tiered greens take away from what might be the best course of the 3. It will be interesting to see how much freedom Kyle Franz has in the project and how the 9-Ball #s stack up post restoration.

[Greg Holland]

Does Kyle have the original Ross drawings for SP?

[Jay Mickle]

I am certain that between his research at the Tuft’s Archives and Chris Buie’s historical writings, Kyle will access to the most complete SP documentation. Surely, if anyone has any old photos, papers etc Kyle would be interested in them.
https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/history-of-southern-pines-golf-club/