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Tommy Williamsen

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Principal's Nose
« on: May 28, 2020, 10:26:13 AM »
Sixteen at TOC is probably the first. The strategy is left, right, short, or over. Right is the preferred line but OB is in play so it is risky.


Two at Hidden Creek is a beaut and the two centerline bunkers on six at Carnoustie could be called Principal's "Nostrils."
Are they built very often anymore? Were they ever built often? Are there more clusters of cross bunkers?
It is a cool feature.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

George Smiltins

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2020, 10:43:40 AM »
Gil Hanse has one at Hole 8/17 at the Course at Sewanee . They call it the Bishop’s Nose http://www.thecourseatsewanee.com/course/
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Mark Pearce

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2020, 11:03:06 AM »
Strategically, isn't the 4th at Woking the model?
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

MCirba

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2020, 11:31:23 AM »
There is one on the approach to the 17th at Yale, if memory serves.
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Tim Martin

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2020, 11:42:05 AM »
Keney Park installed one as part of their recent renovation. It’s the closest one I have seen to the green and functions almost as a lion’s mouth depending on the pin position.
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Philip Gordillo

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2020, 12:12:21 PM »
Great topic.  The 11th hole at Metairie Country Club has one but ours appears to be too far from the tee box since I have rarely reached it on my pulls.  I have wondered if it was placed in the wrong location.  Does anyone know how to check that?
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2020, 12:12:39 PM »
I've always liked the one nostril versions like 14 at Ballyneal, that are right in the middle of the fairway.

One of the few perks of being a High Capper is your ball rarely ends up where your looking to hit it, so you can aim right at em.  ;)
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Colin Sheehan

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2020, 12:13:55 PM »
The reversible Walter Travis course at East Potomac set the all time record. At least a dozen or more.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XkX3uKbL1ScUqyrD8
 
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Luke Sutton

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2020, 12:43:04 PM »
Quote from: Philip Gordillo on May 28, 2020, 12:12:21 PM
Great topic.  The 11th hole at Metairie Country Club has one but ours appears to be too far from the tee box since I have rarely reached it on my pulls.  I have wondered if it was placed in the wrong location.  Does anyone know how to check that?


It was common for Raynor to place the PN bunker out of reach for tee balls and easily carryable with short iron (75ish from the green). This punishes high handicappers and anyone looking to run one up.
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Philip Gordillo

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2020, 01:22:55 PM »
Thanks Luke.  I usually have 130-150 to the green after an average drive (250ish) so our PN always seemed like eye candy rather than a hazard to worry about.  Total different story when I play hickories though!
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Bill Crane

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2020, 01:51:26 PM »
The restoration of Watchung Valley Golf Club to bring back the Seth Raynor design features includes a Principal's Nose feature on the 17th hole.
Interesting green on that hole too.
I believe that George Waters did the work.
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Kyle Casella

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2020, 02:29:10 PM »
There is a very good version at Boston Golf Club, the 16th. Depending on wind and hole location, the choice to go left, short, or long is very important and the carry can be quite challenging into the wind from the back tees. Although there is plenty of room right, it's never the preferred angle. A good narration from Gil below.


https://www.bostongolfclub.org/club/scripts/custom/custom.asp?NS=GOLF&PAGECFG=COURSETOUR&CID=772#/hole16
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Ira Fishman

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2020, 02:32:24 PM »
Number 10 at Old White at the Greenbrier and so named. McDonald/Raynor.


Ira
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2020, 02:36:15 PM »
I know a Principal's Nose is a great bunker because one of my friends said it was unfair to have a bunker in the middle of the fairway.


If you drive it short of the bunker are many of the shots blind into the green?
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2020, 03:09:50 PM »
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2020, 03:23:18 PM »
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2020, 03:49:18 PM »
Tommy W = Yes, Old White #10 and Sleepy #6. I don't have a prize for you, but next time you are in NYC area, let me know and I'll buy you a drink and/or host you for a round.

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Thomas Dai

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2020, 04:55:32 PM »
Am I correct that the original 16th TOC version now has an area of rough much closer in to the left hand side of the fairway than in previous times?
Atb
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David_Madison

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2020, 07:46:57 PM »
How about the first hole at Old Mac? Considering the theme of the place, it seems likely that was pretty intentional.
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Tal Oz

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2020, 07:54:58 PM »
Aside from the Mac/Raynor ones mentioned + #6 at Chicago there's two great ones at Rustic Canyon, #3 and #13. 3 plays great because it's a sub 300y par 4 with OB left and 20y right of the green is the big nose. If you're going for it you can't bail out right without introducing 6 into play. 13 is a single built up centerline bunker, so it may not technically be a PN, but at 245 from the Blues and 275 from the tips it influences a lot of decisions for an 80y wide fairway.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2020, 09:35:35 PM »
Quote from: Colin Sheehan on May 28, 2020, 12:13:55 PM
The reversible Walter Travis course at East Potomac set the all time record. At least a dozen or more.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XkX3uKbL1ScUqyrD8


Hopefully it will again, someday!
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2020, 09:50:56 PM »
Quote from: David_Madison on May 28, 2020, 07:46:57 PM
How about the first hole at Old Mac? Considering the theme of the place, it seems likely that was pretty intentional.


Yes, we were familiar with its pedigree.  ;)


Macdonald was fond of building them, but NOT right in the landing area as on the 16th at St. Andrews.  He was more likely to put it out past where anyone could drive the ball in 1925 -- like the one on the 1st hole at Piping Rock [300 off the tee, 85 short of the green].  I don't know why he was such a wimp about it.


When I worked on Piping Rock for Mr. Dye in 1985, the green chairman Woody Millen and I built a Principal's Nose in the landing area of the par-5 10th, so you couldn't go for the green in two without taking it on.  It was only there for a year, but it was fun while it lasted.  Mrs. Dye's opinion of it was not very kind, but I am well over that.


Personally, I think that using the form of the Principal's Nose in a location that's not compelling is as vapid as the various Church Pew bunkers in China, or the replicas of the Swilcan Bridge in Japan.  But putting a nasty bunker right in the landing area of a hole and forcing the golfer to decide what to do in response?  Priceless!
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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2020, 03:16:58 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on May 28, 2020, 09:50:56 PM
Quote from: David_Madison on May 28, 2020, 07:46:57 PM
How about the first hole at Old Mac? Considering the theme of the place, it seems likely that was pretty intentional.
Personally, I think that using the form of the Principal's Nose in a location that's not compelling is as vapid as the various Church Pew bunkers in China, or the replicas of the Swilcan Bridge in Japan.  But putting a nasty bunker right in the landing area of a hole and forcing the golfer to decide what to do in response?  Priceless!
But this is a thread celebrating that!  And a post about the possible equivalence of the strategic challenge of the original to the 4th at Woking has been ignored. 
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2020, 03:18:01 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Dai on May 28, 2020, 04:55:32 PM
Am I correct that the original 16th TOC version now has an area of rough much closer in to the left hand side of the fairway than in previous times?
Atb
Yes.  There's almost no fairway left of the bunker, so the choice to go left has been removed.  Proving the Links Trust don't "get it".
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

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Re: Principal's Nose
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2020, 04:40:37 AM »
Quote from: Mark Pearce on May 29, 2020, 03:18:01 AM
Quote from: Thomas Dai on May 28, 2020, 04:55:32 PM
Am I correct that the original 16th TOC version now has an area of rough much closer in to the left hand side of the fairway than in previous times?
Atb
Yes.  There's almost no fairway left of the bunker, so the choice to go left has been removed.  Proving the Links Trust don't "get it".

RIP TOC Principal's Nose. However, I think Woking's 4th may have been widened on the left.

Ciao
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