[Niall C]

Donal,


Interesting comments regarding Sweden. For what it's worth Sweden is one country being talked about over here because it is an outlier in how it is dealing with the crisis but I'm not sure it is being slated as such. Sure there are some disagreeing with the approach and others who hold it up as good approach to take albeit it wouldn't suit everyone.


As for the Swedish press being insular, well is every country not like that ? It brings to mind the famous headline in the Aberdeen Journal when the Titanic sank "North East man lost at sea". At the start of this thing (in Europe) a young BBC reporter (is there any other kind these days) based in Sweden excitedly gave a report on how the country was bucking the lockdown trend with people being able to go to garages and shops and parks, as though that wasn't happening here. I'm based in one of the major UK cities and from what I can see the idea that everyone has been cooped up all day and only exercising once a day for half an hour while keeping 2m away from everyone else at all times while doing so is just wishful thinking. The last 3 or 4 weeks have been like a long lazy bank holiday weekend. People have already decided to come out of lockdown of their own volition. Whether that is a good thing remains to be seen.


Anyway, I hope your safe.


Niall


ps. how long now since we played in the BUDA at Silloth ?   

[Ben Stephens]

I promised myself that I wouldn't discuss Sweden's approach to the COVID-19. As someone living in Sweden, I now realise, in general, how little the rest of the world really knows about this country (I mean no disrespect to anyone here that mentioned Sweden). With this crisis, you are now getting a glimse of what this country is really like. 


The Swedish approach is baffling, bizarre, surreal, frustrating, laughable, tragic, sad, arrogant, insulting, disrespectful, surprising, mysterious. I could go on and on with the adjectives.


Sweden's reputation has been damaged greatly. The neighbouring countries are not happy with us, and I totally understand their concerns and feelings. It looks like the Swedes will be holidaying at home this Summer. We will be persona non grata in many countries. Some of what has been written in the Swedish press has been scandalous, arrogant, nationalistic and so disrespectful to our European neighbours.


If you translate the following to English, you'll find it's quite interesting reading:
https://tegnellcitat.se/
https://twitter.com/tegnellsfaktoid

Great to hear from you Donal it has been ages!


I heard that the numbers playing golf in Sweden increased three or maybe four fold compared to the same time last year over the last few months. Correct me if I am wrong and would be interested seeing the numbers if you have access to them.


We will all learn from this and experience will help each country what to do and not to do in future


Cheers
Ben

[Lou_Duran]

For me it's simple:  Is life precious and sacred?   

Lou, we get it - you are a conservative.  Let it go, buddy.

Bogey

Et tu, Bogey!  Now I understand the depth of President Johnson's despair when he lost Cronkite.


Time for an extended sabbatical.  As a much better boxer than me once said, No Mas! 

[Tony_Muldoon]

I stopped reading about the Swedish Covid experiment some weeks ago, when I realised The Telegraph were reporting it as a disaster and The Guardian as a possible way forward.  Going forward I predict you could exchange another word for Covid and the papers will take the same stance on it.


Last weekend The FT ( ) reported  Sweden and Norway, despite having taken opposite actions experienced a near identical hit on their GDP, around 8%. It seems you don't have to have a government tell you it's risky to carry on as before, people choose to self isolate in equal nos in both countries. From this I conclude nothing about Sweden, but that reopening after lockdown will not cure all our economic woes. Someone needs to tell the Stock Markets this. The second wave of cutback redundancies in a time of continued uncertainty will be brutal.

I'm normally called a Pollyanna, for once I'm struggling to see the end of end of this...

[Bryan Izatt]

A Swedish stat to consider - around 40% of Swedish households are single persons, so there is some inherent self-isolation going on there already.  And, Sweden wasn't wide open; they banned gatherings of more than 50 people and closed high schools, colleges and universities.


If you look at Sweden's neighbours on either side, Finland and Norway, they combined have about the same population as Sweden's 10 million.  They both apparently went the lock down route. At this point Sweden has about 7 times the number of deaths as the other two countries combined.     


In another comparison from the other side of the world it is reported that Hong Kong, a densely populated metro area similar in size to New York City has 4 deaths while New York has 20,000.


What are the lessons to be learned from these and other experiences.


And, who has any confidence in any numbers reported by anybody from anywhere.

[Ben Stephens]

A Swedish stats to consider, around 40% of Swedish households are single persons, so there is some inherent self-isolation going on there already.  And, Sweden wasn't wide open; they banned gatherings of more than 50 people and closed high schools, colleges and universities.


If you look at Sweden's neighbours on either side, Finland and Norway, they combined have about the same population as Sweden's 10 million.  They both apparently went the lock down route. At this point Sweden has about 7 times the number of deaths as the other two countries combined.     


In another comparison from the other side of the world it is reported that Hong Kong, a densely populated metro area similar in size to New York City has 4 deaths while New York has 20,000.


What are the lessons to be learned from these and other experiences.


And, who has any confidence in any numbers reported by anybody from anywhere.

What has come to light in these times is that each country seem to record deaths differently which is harder to have an exact record for the reasons of death. Here in the UK we have recorded all COVID 19 related deaths whether they are the primary cause or secondary cause. Most people who have died are either over 80 or has underlying illnesses which was sped up by COVID 19 because their body could not fight it off/weakened immune system.


Germany has recorded deaths as the primary cause only not all COVID related deaths as well they were better prepared health system wise to deal with a pandemic. China is rather dubious there are reports of more than 40k 'hidden' deaths in Wuhan that is not recorded and dusted under the carpet. There is so much disparity between the approaches to the virus situation and the recording of deaths by each country.


In the aftermath more information will come out as some countries are slower to record actual deaths and reason for deaths so on. Hopefully that there will be WHO or UN rules that each country has to adhere to the same approach in terms of recording deaths etc during a pandemic which will help to make scientific decisions sooner than later.


Wouldn't like to be in South America at the moment.

[Niall C]

Hopefully that there will be WHO or UN rules that each country has to adhere to the same approach in terms of recording deaths etc during a pandemic which will help to make scientific decisions sooner than later.

Ben

I hate to get all "Lou Duran" on you and while I think the gist of what you're proposing is basically a good idea, I hate the idea of some outside agency whether it's the UN, WHO or EU being able to command anything. Agreement by consensus is a much better way to go.

Niall

[Niall C]

For me it's simple:  Is life precious and sacred?   

Lou, we get it - you are a conservative.  Let it go, buddy.

Bogey

Et tu, Bogey!  Now I understand the depth of President Johnson's despair when he lost Cronkite.


Time for an extended sabbatical.  As a much better boxer than me once said, No Mas! 

C'mon Lou, stick with us. How's your brother getting on anyway ? Probably due for a comeback is he not.

Niall

[Ben Stephens]

Hopefully that there will be WHO or UN rules that each country has to adhere to the same approach in terms of recording deaths etc during a pandemic which will help to make scientific decisions sooner than later.

Ben

I hate to get all "Lou Duran" on you and while I think the gist of what you're proposing is basically a good idea, I hate the idea of some outside agency whether it's the UN, WHO or EU being able to command anything. Agreement by consensus is a much better way to go.

Niall

Spot on Niall this crisis has shown how ineffective the UN, WHO or the EU have been. It could be the rise of individuality rather than large mundane and time wasting organisations - a world treaty might be a more effective way forward to each country agree to all to adhere to the same procedures and transparency which is vital when it is an health issue.


Lou is a cracking guy and his terminology is second to none. I can see him being a good speaker of the House of Commons and keeping them all in order


Cheers
Ben

[Niall C]

Ben

I think you miss my point slightly. Why do you need a treaty ? Each organisation can give advice and each country can decide to take it or leave it. We're all working together but that doesn't mean we need compulsion through a legal agreement to do so.

Niall

[jeffwarne]

The Swedish approach is baffling, bizarre, surreal, frustrating, laughable, tragic, sad, arrogant, insulting, disrespectful, surprising, mysterious. I could go on and on with the adjectives.


Sweden's reputation has been damaged greatly. The neighbouring countries are not happy with us, and I totally understand their concerns and feelings. It looks like the Swedes will be holidaying at home this Summer. We will be persona non grata in many countries. Some of what has been written in the Swedish press has been scandalous, arrogant, nationalistic and so disrespectful to our European neighbours.

The same or worse could be said for the US "response".
100,000 dead and counting,the economy devastated for the very ideals we cherish most(small business), and the wearing a device that actually protects you and others considered political.


What cracks me up most is that we would impose an incoming travel ban on ANYBODY.(unless only for THEIR protection)
If I was swimming in a pool of piss I would sure welcome some water coming in

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

I think you miss my point slightly. Why do you need a treaty ? Each organisation can give advice and each country can decide to take it or leave it. We're all working together but that doesn't mean we need compulsion through a legal agreement to do so.

Niall

Niall,


A treaty is more like a form of agreement that all parties agree to support each other and to be transparent on what is happening within their borders from a health standpoint against a hidden enemy - this could happen more often in future as it seems that there are more and more new coronaviruses types happening like SARS, Ebola and now COVID 19.


There has been a startling lack of transparency of the real situation in certain countries and abject cover up by some. Advice is good way forward but in reality would every country do the same based on an organisation like WHO and their recommendations on of which was to 'test, test, test!' - did everyone do this? There is no real form of agreement that each should follow certain guidelines that would have helped. The question is could have we prevented more deaths - yes


Norway/Finland vs Sweden is a good example on disease control however Swedens approach probably has affected Norway/Finland's economy more. Had Sweden done something similar to Norway/Finland the combined economy might be less worse however this is a unprecedented global problem all economies are suffering and it will probably take a long time to recover from this from an economic standpoint.


I am getting more and more suspicious that the virus started to be active last August/September (lots of people I know had a really bad cough in Oct/Nov/Dec which was hard to knock off and then the Chinese announced the problem in December so the spread and damage already has been done and Taiwan alerted this early but the WHO did not take their alert seriously because they recognise it as being part of China not a standalone country. The number of cases in Taiwan has been rather low. Also China reputation as not being a clean country from a hygienic standpoint (wild animals in a human food market? plus the labs in Wuhan were not being kept sealed or clean) is another issue. 


Cheers
Ben

[John Kavanaugh]

The Swedish approach is baffling, bizarre, surreal, frustrating, laughable, tragic, sad, arrogant, insulting, disrespectful, surprising, mysterious. I could go on and on with the adjectives.


Sweden's reputation has been damaged greatly. The neighbouring countries are not happy with us, and I totally understand their concerns and feelings. It looks like the Swedes will be holidaying at home this Summer. We will be persona non grata in many countries. Some of what has been written in the Swedish press has been scandalous, arrogant, nationalistic and so disrespectful to our European neighbours.

The same or worse could be said for the US "response".
100,000 dead and counting,the economy devastated for the very ideals we cherish most(small business), and the wearing a device that actually protects you and others considered political.


What cracks me up most is that we would impose an incoming travel ban on ANYBODY.(unless only for THEIR protection)
If I was swimming in a pool of piss I would sure welcome some water coming in

Jeff,


I wish I could explain why things are so much worse in your neck of the woods. 7,800 people were dying each day in America before this pandemic showed it's ugly head. It's nice that we as a country now take each and every death so personal. I'm going to go walk 9 holes in the heat and humidity of Florida and hope not to succumb to a bacon induced heat stroke.

[Joe Zucker]

The Euro tour is coming back to the UK in July: https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/29234311/european-tour-return-uk-events-july


I wonder if the quarantine will apply to athletes coming in?

[Niall C]

With respect Ben you are still saying everyone must do as WHO says so there is an element of compulsion. It also seems to assume a one size fits all type solution when the different demographics and culture of each country make that less than ideal. Yes they have a role but I don't think it is necessarily telling others what to do and having the powers to compel them.


But anyway, see the Director General of WHO, do you know what handicap he is ?



Niall 

[Ben Stephens]

With respect Ben you are still saying everyone must do as WHO says so there is an element of compulsion. It also seems to assume a one size fits all type solution when the different demographics and culture of each country make that less than ideal. Yes they have a role but I don't think it is necessarily telling others what to do and having the powers to compel them.


But anyway, see the Director General of WHO, do you know what handicap he is ?



Niall

Niall


For clarification I meant to say 'an organisation that should replace the WHO or a version of WHO with medical professionals leading it' that people trust and respect. The current WHO leader is not a qualified doctor nor has a medical background which is mind boggling. Its is all about health not politics or cultures which needs to be put aside at times so therefore feel it needs to be an agreement in place and mutual understanding that certain approaches may be required whether some countries like it or not to further protect the future survival of the human race. Viruses mutate and will become harder to fight against in future which is a concern which is why International co-operation and sharing of information is vital to enable all of us to counteract any future threat.


Cheers
Ben

[Kalen Braley]

Ben,


I disagree.  We have one of the world's most qualified people to advise in the US, Dr. Fauci, and he's still being crucified and widely dismissed by political punditry galore.


"Fauci is recognized as one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases.[3][4] As a physician with the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Fauci has served American public health in various capacities for over 50 years, and has been an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan.[3] He has made contributions to HIV/AIDS research and other immunodeficiencies, both as a scientist and as the head of the NIAID at the NIH, and from 1983 to 2002 was one of the world's most-cited scientists in scientific journals.[5]"

[Niall C]

Yes but you are still saying we would be required to do as the WHO says. As I said before, different demographics and cultures could and probably would lead to different solutions. Each country should have the right to deal with the issue as they think fit. We have seen all the way through the significant differences from different medical experts.


And also, you won't like this, but the decision on what to do isn't based purely on the health issues.


Niall

[John Kavanaugh]

Ben,


I disagree.  We have one of the world's most qualified people to advise in the US, Dr. Fauci, and he's still being crucified and widely dismissed by political punditry galore.


"Fauci is recognized as one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases.[3][4] As a physician with the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Fauci has served American public health in various capacities for over 50 years, and has been an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan.[3] He has made contributions to HIV/AIDS research and other immunodeficiencies, both as a scientist and as the head of the NIAID at the NIH, and from 1983 to 2002 was one of the world's most-cited scientists in scientific journals.[5]"

Kalen,


Fauci is 79. With everything you know about this virus don't you think he might be biased in favor of old people?  Nicklaus was also born in 1940 and he seems to be on top of everything golf. Older the better.

[Kalen Braley]

Thank you for Exhibit A Barney,

Dismiss him with a Straw Man argument.

There has certainly been no shortage of those and every conspiracy theory under the sun to boot.  As much as we like to think rationality will prevail, now more than ever humanity's irrational side is on full display...

[John Kavanaugh]

I can’t even imagine how I would act if the government declared the business my Grandfather started 90 years ago nonessential. People should have the choice to work if anything. That is not irrational. 

[jeffwarne]

The Swedish approach is baffling, bizarre, surreal, frustrating, laughable, tragic, sad, arrogant, insulting, disrespectful, surprising, mysterious. I could go on and on with the adjectives.


Sweden's reputation has been damaged greatly. The neighbouring countries are not happy with us, and I totally understand their concerns and feelings. It looks like the Swedes will be holidaying at home this Summer. We will be persona non grata in many countries. Some of what has been written in the Swedish press has been scandalous, arrogant, nationalistic and so disrespectful to our European neighbours.

The same or worse could be said for the US "response".
100,000 dead and counting,the economy devastated for the very ideals we cherish most(small business), and the wearing a device that actually protects you and others considered political.


What cracks me up most is that we would impose an incoming travel ban on ANYBODY.(unless only for THEIR protection)
If I was swimming in a pool of piss I would sure welcome some water coming in

Jeff,


I wish I could explain why things are so much worse in your neck of the woods. 7,800 people were dying each day in America before this pandemic showed it's ugly head. It's nice that we as a country now take each and every death so personal. I'm going to go walk 9 holes in the heat and humidity of Florida and hope not to succumb to a bacon induced heat stroke.

"my neck of the woods"
Take out the 29000 NY deaths.....and...wait for it... the US leads the world by a mile with 73000 deaths.
That piss is floating in Florida as well as the other 50 states.
It's here, it's in the UK.
restricting travel makes little sense now...
Horse left the barn while it was being wished away..

[John Kavanaugh]

I think we agree. I joined another club in Florida and have gone everyday spreading "the wealth". It must be contagious because the pro said he has never seen it so busy.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,


I disagree.  We have one of the world's most qualified people to advise in the US, Dr. Fauci, and he's still being crucified and widely dismissed by political punditry galore.


"Fauci is recognized as one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases.[3][4] As a physician with the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Fauci has served American public health in various capacities for over 50 years, and has been an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan.[3] He has made contributions to HIV/AIDS research and other immunodeficiencies, both as a scientist and as the head of the NIAID at the NIH, and from 1983 to 2002 was one of the world's most-cited scientists in scientific journals.[5]"

Kalen


Well we have Professor Whitty (Chief Medical Officer) and Vallance (Chief Scientific Officer) who have incredible medical backgrounds and lots of people respect them in the UK (unlike with Fauci in the US) and there is also Jenny Harries the deputy chief medical officer who is like a old fashioned headmistress who you would want to go on the wrong side of her she once told a member of the press - 'lets have an adult conversation' we all want to listen to what they say on the daily updates on the TV.


Prof Vallance said the best case scenario in UK was min 20k deaths and the worse case scenario was 500k. He was being realistic early on and forthright in his approach.


The majority of the people in the UK all agree that we listen to the scientists more than the god awful media and politicians plus their advisors who broke their own laws.


I recently watched the Loudest Voice with Russell Crowe and saw that the US media is absolutely dreadful and I do feel for Fauci who has an incredible medical background and experience not be listened to is an absolute travesty being stood over by an egomaniac President who thinks he knows better than everyone. The world we live in there is a huge amount 'arrogance of ignorance' and there will be a point in time when things get rather serious that the experts will be hopefully eventually listened to more otherwise it will be too late.


The virus has the most impact on the over 70s due to their lung make up and immune system and this is probably why Fauci veers towards them more than the rest.


These dark times has really exposed the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. More common sense is needed in future.


For me the biggest problem in all of this other than the virus are the journalists, the loose cannon like social media the number of fake news these are the people who are the most dangerous they don't really report on any form of positivity. They all remind me of the journalist in the film Die Hard and to echo John McEnroe these people are the pits of the world. Trouble is that we now have too many people on this planet who think that they know better when they are no way qualified to do so.

[Kalen Braley]

Ben,

Sounds terrific that the UK has some able people running the show... and I agree for the most part with your assessment of the media here in the US, its a joke.

Your last sentence in your prior post is probably the one I was disagreeing the most.  The US government at the moment can not be counted on in any meaningful way during these kinds of outbreaks.  And its not limited to this, the scientific community has been under direct attack for quite a while from several American institutions, its disturbing to say the least...

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