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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2020, 08:17:29 PM »
A reminder that the closing date is this coming Monday the 18th.

Joe Zucker

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Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2020, 02:53:22 PM »
.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 02:56:46 PM by Joe Zucker »

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2020, 02:57:24 PM »
Here is my entry for the competition.  I agree that it was tough to get length into these holes, but the design brief asked for an exciting finish, so hopefully the Euro tour likes birdies. 

I started from the B green and attempted to use a tree as a part of the design strategy (hard to say if the hole works without knowing what the tree looks like).  Then a short par 3 followed by an uphill par 4 ending near the C green.  The landing area on 18 gets into some undulating land.  I was thinking that this might harm the longer players by giving them uneven lies compared to a shorter hitter, but doesn't take driver out of your hands. I was also thinking that those mounds might make the green semi-blind for a more challenging approach.




This was a fun exercise given the constraints.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 10:28:40 PM by Joe Zucker »

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2020, 09:24:31 AM »
Robin, Thank you for sharing this exercise. 


I started from A green and gave the clubhouse plenty of excitement to watch at the end.  An extremely difficult par 3, 16th, but for the average golfer the front tees would be a fun challenge.  The finishing par 5 up the hill would be difficult for sure.  I had fun attempting this, and if nothing else from this, I am pleased with how my paint.net abilities have improved over the years.



Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2020, 11:16:47 AM »
Here is my entry. I went through 6 or 7 iterations before finally deciding on this design. In my opinion, the C green was the only viable starting point in order to string together 3 good holes without compromises elsewhere. I like the balance of these 3 holes as each one demands a different test of the player.

The 16th can easily be played as a 3 shot hole for all players. if you want to try and challenge the green in 2 you'll have to hit a really strong right to left tee ball in order to give yourself a good approach. A tee shot lost off to the right will have to contend with two opposing slopes. A drive of ~250 yards may catch a slope and be funneled off of the fairway to the right. A drive of ~300 yards will land on a down slope and may run through the fairway, leaving an obstructed view of the green for their 2nd shot.

A short but semi-blind 17th is all about distance control and trusting your wedge game. With any wind on the site, this could be a diabolical little penultimate challenge.

The 18th is not an overly demanding driving hole. To gain the best angle into the green you'll want to challenge the left-hand fairway bunker. The super long may choose to try and fly the corner of the fairway with a driver, but that has the potential to leave them with a rather blind and awkward wedge shot. The approach to the 18th will play a club or two uphill with the position of the bunkers near the green playing tricks with a player's depth perception.




« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:49:28 AM by Ben Hollerbach »

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2020, 01:56:15 AM »
An extremely difficult par 3, 16th, but for the average golfer the front tees would be a fun challenge.


260 meters par-3, ~35 feet uphill with extremely deep bunkers in front of the green is quite aggressive.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2020, 02:08:35 AM »
Here's mine. Since it's a tournament course, it made sense to use the natural contours for stadium settings on 17 and 18.



Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2020, 09:08:27 AM »
An extremely difficult par 3, 16th, but for the average golfer the front tees would be a fun challenge.


260 meters par-3, ~35 feet uphill with extremely deep bunkers in front of the green is quite aggressive.


I won't disagree, however, it looks like 15 was a breather hole to me before the excitement begins.  Besides that's probably only a rescue or 4 iron for the pros.[size=78%]  [/size] ;D

Neil White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2020, 11:30:41 AM »
Here's my entry.


I have considered the site to be playing firm and fast and have tried to utilise the existing ground contours to create some strategic interest on both the drives and lay-ups; putting emphasis on and rewarding most those who manage to place their ball on the correct part of the fairway. 


The green sites would sit within natural dells (16th), or shouldered into side slopes (17th & 18th).


Both the 17th & 18th have the option of being played as par-5 and par-4 for daily play or as par-4 & par-3 (from a more advanced tee) for tournament.  In the case of the 18th this hole could also remain as a risk reward par-4 off the back tee for tournament play.


Other than tees and greens, the holes would require minimal grading and shaping to make them work, with the exception of the 18th which calls for some peripheral mounding to be put in for viewing spectators.


See what you think.







 

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2020, 11:43:29 AM »
Josh,


I really wanted to make a hole work in this area but just couldn't figure out how to fit it in and make sense. Being curious how your design would play I graphed the slope of the ground along the hole. from the back tee through the green. After looking at the graph I don't believe this hole would be anywhere close to playable as a par 3.

The the uphill slope in front of the back tee is too sever to give any sort of sight line and would make the entire hole blind. Then, if you factor in the flight conditions for the average drive on the PGA tour (using 2019 radar stats), a driver would be required to clear the ridge and would do so by only 10 yards. If the hole was played from here with just the slightest wind into the players, half the field would not be able to carry the ridge.

Now that being said, while the slope before the ridge is still pretty severe if the fairway was mowed short of the ridge as well the resulting hole playing as a par 4 would be super quirky and a lot of fun.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:46:48 AM by Ben Hollerbach »

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2020, 01:07:00 PM »
Ben,


Let's call it a par 4 then.   ;D   It appears I would been better off to move the tee back and do just that. I though about moving the tee up, but had other tees in place for mere mortals, I was ready to test the best. 


In all seriousness, I genuinely do appreciate the feedback and analysis and am impressed with how quickly you were able to generate that graph.  I continue to learn about routing.  Josh 
[size=78%] [/size]

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2020, 01:34:42 PM »
Here's my entry.






This is a strong entry. I figured everyone would use the green site we both used for 17. Is the second shot blind if you go for the green? It's interesting that you went with the combo on 18 rather than going all-in on a par-3 finisher.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2020, 04:38:19 PM »
Here is my entry. I went through 6 or 7 iterations before finally deciding on this design. In my opinion, the C green was the only viable starting point in order to string together 3 good holes without compromises elsewhere. I like the balance of these 3 holes as each one demands a different test of the player.


I like the holes. I think pro's would eat up #16. I wonder how much they'll look for spectator viewing? Your 17th and 18th greens are both kind of anti-stadium settings.

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2020, 05:09:13 PM »
I also wonder how much they will care about spacing of tees with respect to greens.  Several times I thought the best spot for a tee would infringe too closely with the previous green making the tee shot a real danger.  This exercise really shows just how many things there are to think about...

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2020, 09:08:42 AM »
Here is my entry. I went through 6 or 7 iterations before finally deciding on this design. In my opinion, the C green was the only viable starting point in order to string together 3 good holes without compromises elsewhere. I like the balance of these 3 holes as each one demands a different test of the player.


I like the holes. I think pro's would eat up #16. I wonder how much they'll look for spectator viewing? Your 17th and 18th greens are both kind of anti-stadium settings.


As a par 5, the 15th may be easy for the pros. But there is little reason it couldn't be played as a par 4 for tournament play. I have to admit, on site spectator viewing was the last thing to cross my mind when working on this contest. I didn't take "exciting and dramatic" to mean stadium seating, but maybe I should have. I wanted to present 3 holes that tested the players in different ways and create opportunities for birdies & bogeys.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2020, 03:47:24 AM »
Pretty great job for an 11-year-old. I do feel like you would just play his 16th hole down the other fairway. And he put his 18th tee on that big upslope where many of us felt we couldn’t place a tee. Next time I enter a contest I’m going to put “Age 11” next to my name too. ;D  But I can’t begrudge them for picking a feel-good winner.


I hope they will post some of the other entries that they liked, or didn’t like.




Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2020, 11:55:01 AM »
I take that back. I wish they had just chosen the best entry instead of the cutest. I’m disappointed in them.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2020, 12:04:24 PM »
Well done Dylan. Pretty much what I would have done and certainly that was the best of the ones I saw posted here.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2020, 03:00:21 PM »
Adrian,


Matt's entry was very similar to Dylan's. Could you talk us through the distinctions between the two and why you prefer Dylan's routing.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 03:31:45 PM by Ben Hollerbach »

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2020, 07:03:54 PM »
Terrific drafting skills for an 11 year old.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2020, 02:06:02 AM »
Pretty great job for an 11-year-old. I do feel like you would just play his 16th hole down the other fairway. And he put his 18th tee on that big upslope where many of us felt we couldn’t place a tee. Next time I enter a contest I’m going to put “Age 11” next to my name too. ;D  But I can’t begrudge them for picking a feel-good winner.


I hope they will post some of the other entries that they liked, or didn’t like.




Matt and Ben,




As I have had time to assess the winning entry carefully looking at the contours. Remarkably for a 11 year old it all works.


The 16th Hole is a nice hole with the green tucked around the mound with the tree at the top. Yes you can play from the other fairway which is a minor flaw but it doesn't detract from the strategy of the hole. The best part of this hole is the tee shot IMO


The 17th green is clearly visible from the tee


If you look closely Dylan has put his 18th tee on the side slope not which allows for views of what is ahead not directly over an upslope which is actually clever. The three tier green works on the upslope.


EGD - you better employ this kid for a summer holiday job he probably outdo the rest of you.


Can understand your beef with putting the age against the name however EGD made the decision on the winning entry so have to respect that.


Yes would like to see other entries especially David Minogue's proposal.




Cheers
Ben
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 02:08:20 AM by Ben Stephens »

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2020, 02:15:04 AM »
Terrific drafting skills for an 11 year old.


I particularly like that he's done it in pen and crayon rather than digitally.


Great job.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2020, 02:19:39 AM »
Pretty great job for an 11-year-old. I do feel like you would just play his 16th hole down the other fairway. And he put his 18th tee on that big upslope where many of us felt we couldn’t place a tee. Next time I enter a contest I’m going to put “Age 11” next to my name too. ;D  But I can’t begrudge them for picking a feel-good winner.


I hope they will post some of the other entries that they liked, or didn’t like.




Matt and Ben,




As I have had time to assess the winning entry carefully looking at the contours. Remarkably for a 11 year old it all works.


The 16th Hole is a nice hole with the green tucked around the mound with the tree at the top. Yes you can play from the other fairway which is a minor flaw but it doesn't detract from the strategy of the hole. The best part of this hole is the tee shot IMO


The 17th green is clearly visible from the tee


If you look closely Dylan has put his 18th tee on the side slope not which allows for views of what is ahead not directly over an upslope which is actually clever. The three tier green works on the upslope.




His father put up more images of Dylans work on his twitter feed - definitely a golf course architect in the making
https://twitter.com/MarkAlunEmms/status/1265934010489942016


EGD - you better employ this kid for a summer holiday job he probably outdo the rest of you.


Can understand your beef with putting the age against the name however EGD made the decision on the winning entry so have to respect that.


Yes would like to see other entries especially David Minogue's proposal.




Cheers
Ben

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Tour 3-hole Design Challenge
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2020, 02:26:59 AM »
Why the 11 year old's was better than Matts.


16th hole; Very strong tee shot with a nice option and dramatic, the further trees are kept to the right side of the hole, Matts hole goes the other side of the trees and calls for an exact placing of a 330 yard tee shot from the back tee or you get blocked out by the trees, in real terms for many players these trees would be in direct line, this could have been improved by more fairway to the left. The hole calls for being three shot hole that can be made in two. Matts with the length was a par 4. Can't say at the end of 330 yards there is a run out into two fairway bunkers is very good.  Matts 16th green has the bunker placement on the right of the green that blocks out much of the walk off to the 17th tee, this creates bad circulation of golf traffic which causes turf problems. The 11 year old had good passage to the next hole.
17th hole; Both equal
18th hole; The 11 year old created more space around the green.


Matts was the best of the GCA ones for me though.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

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