[Sandy Smith]

Hi everyone. With so many of us having a bit more time on our hands I would like to pose a question to all of you that’s been on my mind for years. How many courses can you go to each hole in your head? Example 12 at Augusta, we can all go straight there but how about #3 ? I am at about 25 courses but I’ve also worked in golf all my life. I know guys like Tom Doak and Jim Urbina would have a very high number.
Stay safe.

[archie_struthers]

 


Can't read your text without my peepers but like the question. Think that being able to remember all the holes on a golf course is one of my top criteria for a great design. When you can remember the small details of the individual holes without plaing it many times you probably are on a great one!

[Cal Seifert]

Re sized to make readable

Hi everyone. With so many of us having a bit more time on our hands I would like to pose a question to all of you that’s been on my mind for years.
How many courses can you go to each hole in your head? Example 12 at Augusta , we can all go there but how about # 3?
I’m at about 25 but I worked in golf all my life. I know guys like Tom Doak and Jim Urbina would have a very high number.
Stay safe
                                                                                       

[Peter Flory]

I've wondered this from time to time as well. 

For me, it is probably around 20 where I can play a virtual round in my head and not have to strain my brain to remember anything.  The list includes clubs that I've joined, courses that I grew up playing, and public courses near me that I play a  lot.  After that, there are another 20 or so where it would come to me if I were there- like remembering lyrics to a song when you hear the instrumentation kick in. 

Strangely, there are a several long lost courses where I can walk through the routings like I was a member there (Lido, Overhills, Mill Road Farm, OFCC III, etc). 

One thing that I've always noticed is that it is much easier for me to remember routings and individual holes if there is some elevation change.  It adds another point of differentiation to cling to. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'm better than most at recalling holes, even on courses I haven't played in years, so I'd put my number at 40 to 50, comfortably.

[Sandy Smith]

Sorry for the screw up with my first post.
That’s a very high number Erik. Of that number how many could you walk straight to a specific hole from the clubhouse in a shotgun start that you were on say on #13?

[Tom_Doak]

My memory is not as good as it was 20-30 years ago, but it's still pretty good.   


I started by guessing my number at somewhere between 100 and 150 courses.  Certainly, it would include all the 38 courses I've built, and maybe another 25 where I've consulted over the years.


After that, I'd like to think I remember every hole on a lot of top 100 courses, plus the usual number of courses as you guys [Sterling Farms where I grew up, the Cornell University course, etc.]




So, to test, I've dug out Volume 1 of The Confidential Guide.  Here are the GB & I courses where I can remember every hole.  They are all places I've visited multiple times:


Royal Dornoch
Cruden Bay
Carnoustie
Kingsbarns
St Andrews (Eden)
St Andrews (Old)
Muirfield
North Berwick (West)
Musselburgh Old
*The Renaissance Club
Askernish
Machrihanish
Prestwick
Royal Troon
Royal Birkdale
Royal Lytham & St Annes
Notts
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
*Woodhall Spa
Royal St. George's
Rye
Sunningdale (Old)
St. George's Hill
Walton Heath (Old)
Royal North Devon
*St. Enodoc
*Pennard
Royal County Down
Royal Portrush (Dunluce)
Rosapenna (OTM)
*St. Patrick's
Ballybunion (Old)
Ballybunion (New)
Lahinch


That's 35, including 5 I've worked on.  I didn't cheat; I can remember a lot of holes at a place like Brora or Castle Stuart or Cleeve Cloud [because I was only there 3 years ago], but can't easily remember all 18.


So my total is up to 91.  With U.S. and Australian courses, I think my guess of 150 is pretty close.

[jeffwarne]

Sorry for the screw up with my first post.
That’s a very high number Erik. Of that number how many could you walk straight to a specific hole from the clubhouse in a shotgun start that you were on say on #13?

Those are two entirely different things, as I remember hole numbers in a sequence or leaving one green are and surrounds and its link to the next hole.
Therefore I rarely remember cartball courses as well-always one I can't quite remember how I got to
I'd bet my number is pretty high as I have a lot of favorites I often return to.
I'm up to 20 just on Eastern Long island, and that doesn't count the courses around Augusta I grew up on which has to be near 15-20 as well.

Gotta work on it as it's easy to guess at a number but then you forget how you got to #7   from #5
I'd be shocked if it' s less than 75
Years ago I used to try to recall every hole of a golf trip on the plane ride home, which helps, especially on repeat courses. In Donegal I could do it with 5 or 6 courses, though it's pretty challenenging with the changes at Rosapenna OTM, Gweedore and Narin and Portnoo. I've NEVER been able to remember the holes at Ballyliffin with the texture and terrain being very similar of the holes and the two courses intertwining with each other.
Always liked the vibe there, and the individual holes but they just never grabbed me like other links courses.
Circle back later with a number

[Pete_Pittock]

Most of the courses around Portland, Bend and Bandon, with 60, 30, and 20 years of imprinting.
The antithesis story - Was riding home from Bandon, we had played BD,PD,BT. One of the passengers brought up a par 3 he really liked, but he couldn't remember which hole it was, nor which course. I described all of them, he couldn't pick it. A year later, when we were back at Bandon he said "this is the hole". It was a par 4.

[Sandy Smith]

I first started thinking about this years ago when I would ask someone on the crew to let’s say fertilize the 5th tee on the course we worked at. Frequently I could see in their eyes that they would be counting in their head starting on the first tee the four holes prior to #5 in order to get there.
I’ve also seen it where guys can’t walk directly to their assigned tee in a shotgun start even though they’ve played there for years.
I thought you would be around 200 Tom.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm better than most at recalling holes, even on courses I haven't played in years, so I'd put my number at 40 to 50, comfortably.

I'm *worse* than most, by far, which sometimes troubles me because I can't understand why that is.
I mean, I did very well in school, and I long thought of myself as a bright enough fellow with an excellent memory.
But when it comes to golf courses, there is only 1 that I can play in my head from start to finish -- and that's only because I've played it 50 times!
It reminds me of a theory of mine: good architects "see" differently than I do, and "process" what they see even more differently.
On the one hand, even after 30 years, I bet I could write an "A' paper on some obscure medieval philosopher in two hours; but hold a gun to my head and a full 24 hours and I couldn't read a topo map if my life depended on it.


 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Sorry for the screw up with my first post.
That’s a very high number Erik. Of that number how many could you walk straight to a specific hole from the clubhouse in a shotgun start that you were on say on #13?

Not all of them. But many of them. For example, I'm not sure I could walk to every hole at Dormie Club. In fact I'm positive I could not. But I can recall every hole and how to get to the next hole after that one.

Just around Erie I can name 15 courses that I can name every hole. Maybe I misunderstood your question and it's limited to Top 100 courses or something, but yeah, just around here I get a lot of courses.

You think my number is "very high" but what about the courses you grew up playing? Surely that gets your numbers to 10 or 15, no? If the courses still exist.

Trust me, I make up for my memory for golf courses by not being very good at remembering a face and a name for people I have only met once or twice.

[Sandy Smith]

I really wasn’t sure Erik what a “high score” would be and no I was not meaning just the 100 courses or so. To me any course that one can go to any hole in their head instantly without really thinking about it fits the bill.

[Pete Lavallee]

Excellent topic Sandy,


Routing certainly plays a key in forming a lasting memory. Starting on anything but #1 in a shotgun just ruins it for me. A good example would be Stone Eagle in Palm Springs. We started on #10 the first day of the Kings Putter  and although I started on #1 twice after that I still can’t remember the sequence of holes, I do remember the good ones though.


Other courses that I’ve only played once or twice are burned into my memory. A good example would be Victoria GC, which I’ve only played twice but have a strong recollection of the holes and sequencing. Perhaps good to great golf course architecture is just more memorable than the ordinary stuff!


A good memory trick is to recount your experience shortly after it, like reviewing the front 9 after having played it.  If you think of something once it will probably be forgotten forever because it’s only logged in your short term memory. However if you recollect something within a couple of hours of first recognizing it it will be burned into your long term memory. But I’ve practiced this on countless mundane golf courses and hardly recollect a hole or two. But the good ones do last in the memory banks.


I’d be interested to here others take on why you can remember certain golf courses so vividly and others with little to no detail.

[Sandy Smith]

I totally agree with you Peter about having to start on the first hole to really get your bearings so to speak.

[Mark Pritchett]

Memory tends to remember the really good things and really bad things.  So remembering every hole does not necessarily equate to a course being good. 

[Sandy Smith]

Totally agree.

[Greg Smith]

Well, there might be a difference between "knowing right where [/size]all the holes [/size]are" [/size]and being [/size]able to see in your he[/size]ad th[/size]at little inconspicuous mound or contour set on the [/size]apron th[/size]at [/size]affects your running [/size]appro[/size]ach -- [/size]and remembering th[/size]at for every hole.
[/size]
[/size]I love routings, routing m[/size]aps, etc -- [/size]and due to th[/size]at I c[/size]an prob[/size]ably "remember" the holes on every single course I've ever pl[/size]ayed or w[/size]alked, [/size]and [/size]a good m[/size]any I h[/size]aven't (chiefly prominent works of gc[/size]a).  But [/size]as for th[/size]at higher level of remembr[/size]ance, my [/size]answer h[/size]as to be much sm[/size]aller -- cert[/size]ainly not more th[/size]an 20.

[JC Urbina]

Sandy,


Interesting question but one I am happy to discuss.  I just recently got off the phone with the superintendent at MD.  I was able to discuss each hole and exactly what the hole looks like and what remains to be done.  I remember elevations on the greens and bunkers, tees and mowing lines,  like I was there yesterday.


I could say the same for every club I have consulted at,


The Greens at Garden City can't forget,
Almost every bunker at SFGC,
The slopes of the greens at Pasatiempo
The backgrounds of every hole at The Valley Club and even some of the bunkers on holes that are not fully restored.
The remaining bunkers we need to do at Yeamans Hall
The routing of Claremont and what was changed and what was original
The notes from Emerson Armstrong at Sankaty and what we had to do to restore it
The 12th hole at WBYC and what makes it so special and the 16th hole where I watched Bill Murray impersonate his likeness ( Carl)  as he played the hole.
The location of bunkers at Paramount Club hole by hole
The original routing and the new one that Flynn did at the Glenview Club.
The original holes at the Bob OLink Club and the ones that were changed by Alison
The shapes of the greens at the Dunes Club before I reimagined them
The original routing for Midland Hills before it was modified. where the Short belongs and why it was changed
The first green at St Charles and the  people standing. at different elevations with Alister MacKenzie as he posed for the photo.


Where the Alps were shaped on the  first putting course we did at Shinnecock before they changed the green later down the road.
The routing for Apache Stronghold and who did what green, for example Kye Goalby shaped the first green, and was the first hole we worked on.
Anything you want to know about the many iterations of routings at Pacific Dunes, every green at Sebonack or anything at Old Macdonald, just call.
I can even remember shaping holes for Pete and his son Perry at Plum Creek, Stonebridge in Plano Texas, Rancho Sante Fe Farms.
Going hole by hole at Arizona State University, acting as design  associate for Pete and discussing how he wanted holes to look and play.
'
And countless holes like the Leven at Lundin Links or the Himalayas at Prestwick.and one of my favorite holes  the 10th at Highland Golf Club and its serpentine waterway.  I don't know why I just do


But you know what Sandy,
I can't remember something that was told to me yesterday.




 

[jeffwarne]

I'm nearly always stunned when I have a member who plays the course 3x a week for 10 years come in and tells me about his great shot on "you know, the par 3 up the hill-I think it's on the back..."

[Tom_Doak]

Anything you want to know about the many iterations of routings at Pacific Dunes,  just call.
 

Or he can buy my book on routing, and see the various iterations of the routing at Pacific, and Mr. Keiser's memos back to me with comments.  Whereas we only have your word on how it happened, and memories can be selective!

[Edward Glidewell]

Although I have an exceptionally good memory for other things, I've never had that skill when it comes to golf courses. My father can play a course a couple of times and remember most or all of the holes 20 years later; I can play a course yesterday and not remember half of the holes without some kind of prompt.


I think there's only one course where I can easily go from 1-18 in my head, because I've played it 100+ times. There are a few other courses I've played at least 10 times where I could possibly remember all 18, but I may not be able to get them in order. It's more likely I'd remember most of the holes but forget at least a couple.

[Garland Bayley]

When I played the rerouted nine hole course I learned to play on, and played innumerable times, I could not remember the holes of the original. After my second play of two plays of the rerouted course now known as Jawbone Creek, I posted a photo tour here a few years back. I can clearly remember the holes now. Sometimes the brain needs a little  task to help its storage function.

[archie_struthers]

 


Sandy I think the underlying value of the question posed is not the number of holes someone here can remember.  Rather it's the point that goo d architecture tends to be memorable.


I once played a match years ago with an acknowledged memory expert, to my amazement he could remember everything but how many strokes he took on a couple holes.

[Sandy Smith]

Jeff, your comment made me laugh and I’ve heard similar things at the places I’ve worked and been a member.
 My question rose from meeting so many like the guy who can’t remember “the par 3 up the hill-I think it’s on the back....”

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