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JESII

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Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2019, 05:39:47 PM »
VK,


I wonder if you could provide a single area in which Winged Foot exceeds Winged Foot...other than the Jackie Pung story.


This is a serious question in hopes of delving into your ideals.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2019, 05:58:08 PM »
I wonder if you could provide a single area in which Winged Foot exceeds Winged Foot...other than the Jackie Pung story.
Jim, I'm assuming you meant something else here.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2019, 06:10:12 PM »
VK,

I wonder if you could provide a single area in which Winged Foot exceeds Winged Foot...other than the Jackie Pung story.

This is a serious question in hopes of delving into your ideals.

Did you mean WF & Wykagyl?... If so, firm and fast conditions, making both ground and aerial play more of a puzzle at WF's courses is an easy one.  But even though I could provide several others Jim, I have no spirit for the tangle if it's not going to be with Ran himself, whose mixing of personal opinions and architectural ones is at the soul of MY beef.


So as to not to be disrespectful, I'll say my ideals are thus...Golf is an inanimate game to be enjoyed, not some adjunct of the noblesse oblige. "They" get it right at many, many places... the game is healthy as an ox at Bethpage despite the "mow lines don't go into the bunkers" (Sorry Ran).


But please board, it's meaningless to have this discussion without Ran's input...simply because he's the author, he's the proprietor of the site and its that particular authority which is, in my opinion, abused to the lessening of honest debate.  It's just a list; this is just a game; and policies have never been, are not now, nor ever will be the reason you play or like golf and architecture...which I said the very first time.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 06:11:51 PM by V. Kmetz »
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2019, 06:43:32 PM »
Yes on Wykagyl, thanks!


Thanks VK...fair enough.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2019, 06:53:33 PM »


But please board, it's meaningless to have this discussion without Ran's input...simply because he's the author, he's the proprietor of the site and its that particular authority which is, in my opinion, abused to the lessening of honest debate.  It's just a list; this is just a game; and policies have never been, are not now, nor ever will be the reason you play or like golf and architecture...which I said the very first time.


Victor,


I am probably the one from the "Lower 47" that promoted Maine Golf on GCA.com, NOT Ran. And here we are with TWO courses from Maine on the "147". Obviously Mr Moore and many many other Mainers knew this, and once or twice a season, they drop down to the "Lower 47" to see the valet parking and 13 stimp readings that we have down here. However, very few "Lower 47ers" go past Cape A on a Maine vacation to see REAL golf. I personally think Northeast Harbor is the greatest 15 hole golf course in America, but they got sucked into the "We need 18 like the Lower 47" perspective, so Northeast Harbor gets lost.


Now Ran went to Maine, and he included Cape A and Prouts Neck on his 147 Custodians list for a reason. You are doing Winged Foot East versus Winged Foot West? Come on, I don't subscribe to Golf Digest anymore, but they still seem to find my address and send me a magazine. Get on a TRAIN and go play some golf!
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 06:55:13 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2019, 07:13:19 PM »
Vinnie-You are talking about Winged Foot East or West versus Wykagyl as far as an entrant into the 147 no? Nothing I read from you pits East and West against each other for purposes of this discussion if I understand you correctly.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2019, 07:15:44 PM »
He’s talking about WF vs Wykagyl...I screwed things up saying Winged Foot vs Winged Foot...

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2019, 07:18:47 PM »
He’s talking about WF vs Wykagyl...I screwed things up saying Winged Foot vs Winged Foot...


Jim,


You also clued me into LuLu, and many others too, so thanks for your contributions. By the way, my much younger son can hit it past you, so let's play again. I can deal with it now.  ;) :D :)
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2019, 07:24:35 PM »
It's Ran's list of what he calls "custodians" with his own criteria.


I can of course quibble in several cases about the criteria(several (at least) have mandatory caddie requirements for example) and even could quibble with the accuracy of his commentary of clubs I know well...


but it's Ran's list and he's certainly entitled to subjectivity.
I'd certainly have more than a few that might be hard to objectively defend if I listed my own 100+ favorites.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2019, 07:30:45 PM »

but it's Ran's list and he's certainly entitled to subjectivity.
I'd certainly have more than a few that might be hard to objectively defend if I listed my own 100+ favorites.


Jeff,


Lot's of snarky post recently here on GCA.com, but I am serious in saying that I would love to see your "NorthHaven 114" or similar. I have bookmarked a couple of your courses in Ireland.


Happy New Year.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2019, 08:11:28 PM »

but it's Ran's list and he's certainly entitled to subjectivity.
I'd certainly have more than a few that might be hard to objectively defend if I listed my own 100+ favorites.


Jeff,


Lot's of snarky post recently here on GCA.com, but I am serious in saying that I would love to see your "NorthHaven 114" or similar. I have bookmarked a couple of your courses in Ireland.


Happy New Year.


Mike
 in no particular order- off the top of my head
so call it "favorites 100+"

Palmetto
Southampton
Northwest GC
Goat Hill (9)
Cape Arundel
Midland Valley (Aiken)
Augusta CC
Durness (9)
Pennard
Gweedore(9? haven't seen the new holes)
Buckie Strathlene
Portsalon
Soule Park
Mulranny (9)
Portsea (9)
St George's (LI)
North Haven (Maine)(9)
Aiken GC
Dunfanaghy
Deal (UK)
Arrowtown
Aberdovey
Sleepy Hollow
Miami Springs
Brooksville CC
Athens CC
Myopia
Eastward Ho
Highland Links (Truro MA) (9)
North Berwick
Parkstone
Broadstone
Rivierra
Cruit (9)
Prestwick St Nicholas
Quogue (9)
Fraserburgh
Long Cove
Maidstone
Brora
Dunaverty
Shiskine (12)
Carradale (9)
Formby
St Annes Old Links
Brancaster
Hayling
The Island
Morfontaine
Vallierre (9)
Ocala Golf Club
Glen Head
Huntington CC
Kington (only course I ever drove out of my way to see and did not play)
Royal County Down
The Old Course
The Creek
Piping Rock
Yeaman's Hall
CC of Charleston
Apawamis
Atlantic
Wallasey
West Sussex
Perranporth
St Enodoc
Murcar
Suburban
Shennecossett
Merion
Fisher's Island
Essex County (Mass)
Kebo Valley
Portrush Valley
Dunbar
Kilspindie
Bethpage Red
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Trails
Lundin
Traigh (9)
Lawsonia
Erin Hills
Caledonia
Fenway
Inwood
NGLA
Ohoopee
Friar's
Pebble Beach
Strandhill
Waterville (not a hidden gem but a guilty pleasure being my first links in ireland)
Narin and Portnoo (in its original form and perhaps in its latest)
County Louth
Killarney Mahoney's Point
Pacific Grove
Cabot Cliffs
Tara Iti
Rockaway Hunt Club
Machrihanish
Swinley Forest
Cullen
Spey Bay
Dooks
Liphook
Hankley Common
Castlerock Bann 9
Kittansett
Sankaty Head
















« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 03:06:55 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2019, 08:26:18 PM »
I know everyone has varying styles of persuasion, but I for one have appreciated the vast majority of comments which I would call "Frank Discussion", especially VKs. Even thou Ran hasn't defended his positions, I think it was an excellent exercise on his part to just attempt what makes golf good, and make a list...all the while knowing it would cause a lot of polarized back and forth.


Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2019, 08:55:46 PM »

Carradale



Well that is awfully 147ish!! More information please:


"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2019, 09:06:07 PM »
Quote

Carradale



Well that is awfully 147ish!! More information please:
"For a short period there were bunkers at the 3rd, 8th and 9th greens but these were loved more by sheep than by golfers and they were duly removed along with a dry stane dyke which for many years was an obstacle which had to be overcome in front of the 7th green. An obstacle of a different kind can be the feral goats which occasionally stray from their home on Carradale Point – an attractive sight but whose body odour leaves a lot to be desired!"

Carradale Golf - History of the Club
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 09:10:20 PM by David Harshbarger »
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2019, 09:18:49 PM »
Quote

Carradale



Well that is awfully 147ish!! More information please:
"For a short period there were bunkers at the 3rd, 8th and 9th greens but these were loved more by sheep than by golfers and they were duly removed along with a dry stane dyke which for many years was an obstacle which had to be overcome in front of the 7th green. An obstacle of a different kind can be the feral goats which occasionally stray from their home on Carradale Point – an attractive sight but whose body odour leaves a lot to be desired!"

Carradale Golf - History of the Club

“The sweet spot where high handicappers are not overwhelmed, but good players are punished if they try to overpower the course and miss wide. Carradale nine hole links is studded with outcroppings of rock, which threaten a wild bounce on many holes, most memorably at the difficult par-3 7th. No less than seven of the nine holes are between 200 and 300 yards in length.”

Tom Doak, Golf Course Architect
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Peter Pallotta

Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2019, 10:35:16 PM »
As an old saying goes: "Every philosophy contains within it the author's autobiography".
In my mind, the 'autobiography' is beyond/above reproach: we all get to write our own personal narratives, and no one should try to re-write them for us; it is sacred territory.
But the 'philosophy' -- well, that's fair game: ideas, especially those held by influencers & decision-makers, are meant to be debated, and need to be.
I'd venture to say that many of the snide personal insults and harsh debates around here have stemmed from posters unable (or unwilling) to make the distinction between the two, ie between the personal narratives and the ideas that emerge from them.
Indeed: sometimes I think that if we were all able (and willing) not to challenge other posters' 'autobiographies', there'd hardly be any disagreements about 'philosophies' either -- we'd see each opinion as merely an expression of differing tastes and temperaments.
Of course, if we were actually able & willing to do that then this wouldn't be a very active internet site at all -- as there'd many many fewer threads and posts.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 10:56:46 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2019, 11:05:15 PM »
Peter,


I dissent not from your overall point but because the thread actually has not revealed philosophies or principles that differ from those offered by Ran. Other than Ron’s original post about lack of accessibility being inconsistent with the idea of Custodianship, the posts largely have been about why one course or another should or should not be on the list. For example, it would be an interesting debate to substitute for Ran’s last principle one that states that the course challenges the mettle of players of all skill levels.


In revisiting Ran’s principles and list, I think that there is a substantial disconnect between the principle about avoiding the trappings of status and the courses on the list. Ron is correct that an awfully high number of the courses are exclusive not only in terms of access but in terms of culture. And even some of the available to the public work hard to portray the trappings of status such as Pinehurst, Streamsong, and Castle Stuart and I am not referring only or even primarily to their price tags. That certainly is the one principle that either needs revision or the list needs revision to be more faithful to it.


Ira

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2019, 11:07:59 PM »
Sweeney
Thought you quit?
We don't care how far your kid hits it.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2019, 03:11:16 AM »

Carradale



Well that is awfully 147ish!! More information please:



Image result for carradale golf club images
Image result for carradale golf club images
with a pub and a bnb directly on the first tee
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 03:16:09 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2019, 05:09:18 AM »

Carradale



Well that is awfully 147ish!! More information please:



Image result for carradale golf club images
Image result for carradale golf club images
with a pub and a bnb directly on the first tee

Jeff

Might you start your own thread with your top courses? I think people would be interested!

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2019, 06:20:54 AM »
Sweeney
Thought you quit?
We don't care how far your kid hits it.


I asked Ran to leave and he kept me and removed the destructive thread where I stood up for my friend Tom who left here years ago.


Not sure where/when things went sour, but your statement is not accurate as I have a new GCA friend in Pensacola and my son and I will hopefully play with him in February.


And stop asking me to get involved in your beefs with Golf Authors who post here and get you onto Inwood. Feel free to start real contributions - https://golfclubatlas.com/contributions/
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 06:32:21 AM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2019, 07:22:02 AM »

.. in no particular order- off the top of my head so call it "favorites 100+"

Palmetto
Southampton
Northwest GC
Goat Hill (9)
Cape Arundel
Midland Valley (Aiken)
Augusta CC
Durness (9)
Pennard
Gweedore(9? haven't seen the new holes)
Buckie Strathlene
Portsalon
Soule Park
Mulranny (9)
Portsea (9)
St George's (LI)
North Haven (Maine)(9)
Aiken GC
Dunfanaghy
Deal (UK)
Arrowtown
Aberdovey
Sleepy Hollow
Miami Springs
Brooksville CC
Athens CC
Myopia
Eastward Ho
Highland Links (Truro MA) (9)
North Berwick
Parkstone
Broadstone
Rivierra
Cruit (9)
Prestwick St Nicholas
Quogue (9)
Fraserburgh
Long Cove
Maidstone
Brora
Dunaverty
Shiskine (12)
Carradale (9)
Formby
St Annes Old Links
Brancaster
Hayling
The Island
Morfontaine
Vallierre (9)
Ocala Golf Club
Glen Head
Huntington CC
Kington (only course I ever drove out of my way to see and did not play)
Royal County Down
The Old Course
The Creek
Piping Rock
Yeaman's Hall
CC of Charleston
Apawamis
Atlantic
Wallasey
West Sussex
Perranporth
St Enodoc
Murcar
Suburban
Shennecossett
Merion
Fisher's Island
Essex County (Mass)
Kebo Valley
Portrush Valley
Dunbar
Kilspindie
Bethpage Red
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Trails
Lundin
Traigh (9)
Lawsonia
Erin Hills
Caledonia
Fenway
Inwood
NGLA
Ohoopee
Friar's
Pebble Beach
Strandhill
Waterville (not a hidden gem but a guilty pleasure being my first links in ireland)
Narin and Portnoo (in its original form and perhaps in its latest)
County Louth
Killarney Mahoney's Point
Pacific Grove
Cabot Cliffs
Tara Iti
Rockaway Hunt Club
Machrihanish
Swinley Forest
Cullen
Spey Bay
Dooks
Liphook
Hankley Common
Castlerock Bann 9
Kittansett
Sankaty Head

Jeff,
Damn fine list. I don’t know all the courses but if the ones I don’t know are on the same list as many I do know then I’m sure they’d mostly be up my street. You need to see Welshpool and Minchinhampton Old.
All,
An interesting thread might be “147 NON-Custodians”. :) :)
Atb
PS - as to Carradale, well this is how things once were -
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 07:43:17 AM by Thomas Dai »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2019, 10:01:09 AM »

1. I would read a Warne custodians...I would even purchase it;

2. ATB...Love the idea of the non-custodians. Might get us shuttered :)

3. Palotta...there is a paragraph in this link (https://gen.medium.com/my-semester-with-the-snowflakes-888285f0e662) that goes like this:

What she meant by “safe space” was that she was happy to be in an environment where difficult subjects can be discussed openly, without the risk of disrespect or harsh judgment. This works both ways. What I mean is, this young woman was comfortable, in this university setting, wrestling with things like the Aristotelian idea of some humans being born as “natural slaves.” She was quite comfortable in that space. The question was, how comfortable was the 52-year-old white guy in that discussion? Did it make me uncomfortable? Yes. I’m grateful for the discomfort. Thinking about things I don’t understand or have, for most of my life, written off, is a good thing.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2019, 10:41:40 AM »
One of the things I had hoped to ask Ran about was Prairie Dunes.
I get that the long stuff is often a lost ball and that's an issue with him and others.
But they also have an amazing collection of native plants and a track record for prairie preservation.

It melds beautifully with the landscape beyond the golf course.
It's the course that I think has the greatest sense of place in the US.

The architecture is Top 10 in the World to me.

Is it out because you "just" because you loose golf balls easily?
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beef with the 147 Custodians
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2019, 10:59:59 AM »
One of the things I had hoped to ask Ran about was Prairie Dunes.
I get that the long stuff is often a lost ball and that's an issue with him and others.
But they also have an amazing collection of native plants and a track record for prairie preservation.

It melds beautifully with the landscape beyond the golf course.
It's the course that I think has the greatest sense of place in the US.

The architecture is Top 10 in the World to me.

Is it out because you "just" because you loose golf balls easily?


Ian-That’s an interesting observation and I wonder how Ballybunion gets a pass and makes the list with all the new marram grass? It metes out a fair amount of pain also in the form of lost balls and wasted swings.

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