[Kalen Braley]

The net result of this thread appears to be everyone involved has wet cuffs on their trousers.  Stay thirsty my friends.

Bogey

Bogey, can you elaborate, haven't heard this one before...

P.S.  At the risk of being a wet blanket myself, technology is here to stay, and no doubt the current Instagramers and Tweeters will surely bitch and moan about the next greatest thing 10-20 years from now...whatever it will be.

[Bernie Bell]

Maybe 10-20 years from now you could actually buy trousers with cuffs again.

[Mike Hendren]

Kalen, it's a whizzing contest, son.  Bernie, other than jeans I don't own a pair of trousers without cuffs.

[Kalen Braley]

Bogey,


Thanks for that, no doubt there is a fair bit of that going on, but then again isn't that most threads on GCA.com? 

[Ryan Carey]

Not sure how LinksGems is supposedly leveraging golf course access to promote this “influencer” status you complain about. I’m looking through his social media posts, and they are all photos of golf courses.


It’s seriously difficult to even find a photo of Jon Cavalier (or anyone else) in his accounts.  They are just informational posts about golf courses. Thousands of them.


That’s not someone trying to be an influencer. That means everyone that follows him simply likes seeing cool photos of golf courses.


Nothing to see here. These aren’t the drones you’re looking for...

[David Davis]

IMO there is a lot to love about pictures of golf courses on Instagram. GCA might have a lot more content but honestly it doesn't hold a candle to Instagram or even Facebook if you are connected to some of the heavy hitting travelers or golf photographers.


JC I don't think it's realistically even possible to avoid errors when making regular IG or Facebook posts, not sure whether you partake in that but a lot of time goes into trying to make thoughtful posts on either. Linksgem may well be the very best of what there is out there. Personally, I try to make a post a day, 99.9% golf course related on IG and my favorite account to follow is Linksgem. If he didn't make any mistakes I'd say that was near impossible given the number of posts. One of the great things I've noticed about IG is that when I make a mistake and I most certainly do, usually it's by mis-numbering a hole or something like that. There is always someone that questions this in a respectable manner almost immediately. I keep a 0 tolerance policy on my account with a 1 strike rule. Anything I don't like or I find derogative is immediately removed. No time for that. Jon takes the time to write down some history and interesting thoughtful details of every course he posts.


I think I get around as much as the next guy and I can easily say there are several US courses I've discovered through his account and photos.


On the other hand - just to prove that mistakes are human and happening everywhere, Golf Magazine just credited Hawtree with the renovation of Hirono - is that important? Well, it's likely one of the biggest works and honors Martin Ebert has ever received so I'd say yes and that this was a huge mistake that seems irreversible (unless it didn't make it into the print magazine) - again, IG mistakes are usually caught or question almost immediately and I am certain on the very rare occasion Linksgem makes one it would be immediately rectified. I know I also try to do the same. It's not perfect but personally I'm a very strong supporter of it.


I might even agree with your point to a certain extent but I think there are better golf related examples. I can think of at least a couple that when you check their accounts, and they definitely would be considered influencers, all you see are photos of themselves, almost as if the posts are coming from teenage girls and when it's not a selfie it's a cameraman doing it. Bleh!


 

[JC Jones]

David,


Your last paragraph is particularly comical for anyone who has seen your instagram page; or heard the stories of you asking the caddies and your playing partners to take multiple pictures of you.


The whole idea of "heavy hitting" golf travelers and photographers is EXACTLY my point.  Using the pretense of being a rater for personal profit.  I am not at all surprised you are willing to come on here and defend that practice.


I'll take the content and the written word of Golf Club Atlas any day over the content of the fly by night "influencers" on social media.  Especially if I want to know whether a course is a Seth Raynor.....

[Thomas Dai]

There is also a rather tedious habit imo of the same photos being posted on Instagram and Twitter and probably other social media sites pretty much simultaneously.
Atb

[Bernie Bell]

I get it, you are mad at Instagram  . . . and/or "influencers" . . . but why exactly?  Do you really think a practicing lawyer is on Instagram because he wants to make $$ selling calendars?  I don't know the man but would have to believe that his hobby is dilutive not accretive. I have thoughts and questions about IG too, not relative to any particular account.  Maybe it contributes to bunker fetish because they're the easiest to photograph?  Leads to homogenization of taste?  Drone views don't equate to anything the golfer experiences.  Usually doesn't even try to capture subtleties of routing and other ebb-and-flow aspects of a course the way a Bausch or Arble tour does.  But it's nice to look at.  Rather flip through the daily IG feed than be held captive to CNN in the airport.  A soothing app.  What's your point?  Maybe I'm dense and can't grasp it. If one cares whether a course is a Raynor, Instagram is certainly not the place one would begin looking.

[Kalen Braley]

If you reread JC's original post, this isn't really about Instagram at all.  Its about people in position to influence large amounts of others.

Is there a duty for accuracy?  I would think so.  Does it really matter for golf courses?  Probably not.  Does it matter for other area like politics, public policy, health care, etc?  Hell yes!

[JC Jones]

If you reread JC's original post, this isn't really about Instagram at all.  Its about people in position to influence large amounts of others.

Its also about how they acquire that "influence" and what they do with the currency.  Not even including access to private golf clubs and comped greens fees.

[Bernie Bell]

It's not complicated how they acquire influence.  Other users follow them.  It feeds on itself through group think, but no one is forced to follow.  In terms of "what they do with it," beyond access I'm not sure what you're driving at.  If an account is too pushy with merch, or non-golf content you don't care about, just unfollow.  And qualitatively there's not much moral difference to me between an IG guy and a Pre-IG magazine rater flashing their respective badges for access to the muckety tracks.  In some ways, I'm more comfortable with the IG guy because by definition he's put himself out there for a "vote" on his degree of influence, and he's received it.  If private clubs don't want photos of their property on IG, I can respect that and would hope IG guys honor it.  But that's between the two of them, not third parties. 

[Ian Andrew]

Accuracy is a tricky thing. We rely a lot on information in publications without knowing the source or finding verification. We repeat a lot of information without having the actual background documents to prove what we are saying is actually true. It takes work. Most of us don't have the time.


I think getting things right is really difficult. Because of that we should be a little more compassionate and give people the benefit of the doubt a little more. A quick DM or email is far better than a confrontation.


I always enjoyed my interactions with Bahto or MacWood when trying to put together a puzzle. It's easier doe with more people working together and sharing what they know.

[JC Jones]

Ian,


I think you're applying your sensibilities as one who is both an architect and a studier of architecture and history.  You pursue knowledge and aren't trying to influence or profit off your social media status. 


There is no doubt the study of golf course architecture and history will lead to inaccurate conclusions that are revisited and rehashed.  That is not at all what Im talking about.

[Eric Smith]

I invite all of mankind to fully experience influence as it was meant to be:


https://instagram.com/returningcartsociety?igshid=a5waqr8g9a72

[Jeff Schley]

I fear this population maybe slowly turning into the grumpy old men society.  Taking pride is saying you aren't on facebook and throwing shade on anyone who posts their golfing thrills on instagram is ignoring the times you are living in.  If you don't want to be on facebook and instagram you are free to refrain, however don't bag on people (mostly younger) who do.  Remember when you would see someone with a "car phone" who you thought was displaying unnecessary importance or frivolous utility. Times change nad now everyone almost has one.
Disclaimer: I don't have instagram and rarely use facebook except for my birthday wishes which is nice. Although I'm not active I do see the vital link it gives my nieces/nephews to their family/friends as unnecessary as we all may think it is. I took my nephew to one of the clubs I play at and he politely asked, "Uncle Jeff, can I take a selfie with the club sign in the background please? My friends won't believe I played here unless I give them a photo."  Of course, snap away!

[John Kavanaugh]

We would all still be smoking if someone didn’t speak up and/or lead by example. I was playing with Gary Player a few weeks ago and his son asked me if I wanted a picture. I told him that there is no one in my life interested in seeing where I’m at or who I am with. He paused for a second to see if I was serious and had a good laugh. I saw one of our companions stop and take advantage of the offer a few holes later. We all learned something that day.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

Ironically, the younger generation has already moved on beyond Facebook for the most part.  Just like they rarely use Voice Mail, Email, or Slow mail for that matter!     With everyone on smart phones and the ease of creating apps, whats in or out is moving at lightening pace.

Complaining isn't new to this generation thou, every generation bitches and moans about the ones before and after it....

[Ronald Montesano]

Oh, good. It ended. Now I can post. No one saw that coming. Some salient points:


-I don't know that JC has ever pimped himself as an "influencer." That moniker is reserved for Kardashians and their ilk, their wanna-be ilk, and people headed in a different direction than I.


-Joe Bausch was (and continues to be) the original, great photographer on this board. Mark Saltzmann (the 2nd Toronto Terror) and I followed Joe into the game. Jon came along soon after, with instant cred from his Myopia thread. Saltzy, Jon and I stopped posting photo threads when JK started bitching about photo threads.


-Jon used to use a small, point-and-shoot camera, and he and I talked a bit about "punching up" images shot on blah-weather, blah-color days. This all would have been early 2010s.


-Fast forward to the years of Igram, and Jon connected an ability to access courses, a desire to travel and see those courses, and a skillset that included great awareness of angles and ability to pilot a drone appropriately and efficiently. He became THE golf course guy on the new social medium. Joe doesn't do IG, while I don't have what Jon has, in all positive ways.


-There are other guys out there on IG, like Koenig, Schiller, Fleisher, Benjamin, and Barnes, all trying to make it in the industry that Larry Lambrecht models. JC is not a professional golf course photographer.


-I did an interview with JC for GWRX a few years back. It was initially pulled, because some wag with a vendetta, claimed that JC was accessing courses without permission. All accusations were proven unfounded, and the interview was restored to the site.


-Social media, unfortunately, at times demands pace over review. We (I use TW, FB and IG for various elements of my golf writing and photography) at times commit errors. When folks alert us, we try to repair them, unless we are scurrilous. Times are changing, and old-guard journalism might give way to a new, fan-centric version. Thus it is with humanity.

[Tim Martin]

Oh, good. It ended. Now I can post. No one saw that coming. Some salient points:


-I don't know that JC has ever pimped himself as an "influencer." That moniker is reserved for Kardashians and their ilk, their wanna-be ilk, and people headed in a different direction than I.


-Joe Bausch was (and continues to be) the original, great photographer on this board. Mark Saltzmann (the 2nd Toronto Terror) and I followed Joe into the game. Jon came along soon after, with instant cred from his Myopia thread. Saltzy, Jon and I stopped posting photo threads when JK started bitching about photo threads.


-Jon used to use a small, point-and-shoot camera, and he and I talked a bit about "punching up" images shot on blah-weather, blah-color days. This all would have been early 2010s.


-Fast forward to the years of Igram, and Jon connected an ability to access courses, a desire to travel and see those courses, and a skillset that included great awareness of angles and ability to pilot a drone appropriately and efficiently. He became THE golf course guy on the new social medium. Joe doesn't do IG, while I don't have what Jon has, in all positive ways.


-There are other guys out there on IG, like Koenig, Schiller, Fleisher, Benjamin, and Barnes, all trying to make it in the industry that Larry Lambrecht models. JC is not a professional golf course photographer.


-I did an interview with JC for GWRX a few years back. It was initially pulled, because some wag with a vendetta, claimed that JC was accessing courses without permission. All accusations were proven unfounded, and the interview was restored to the site.


-Social media, unfortunately, at times demands pace over review. We (I use TW, FB and IG for various elements of my golf writing and photography) at times commit errors. When folks alert us, we try to repair them, unless we are scurrilous. Times are changing, and old-guard journalism might give way to a new, fan-centric version. Thus it is with humanity.

#ROMOMANIFESTO-Just in time for the holidays.

[Sean Ogle]

To answer the original question that JC posted:


"My question is, should we care?  Does it matter if the influencers (at least as judged by frequency of posts and number of followers) are accurate?  What value do they have if what they are spreading is untrue?  Is there value to the consumer of these posts or is the value entirely for the one making the post?"
[/size][/color]
[/size]I think it absolutely matters. I've garnered a little bit of a following on instagram and my website, and I always strive to have the most accurate information possible.[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]But the reality is, the vast majority of people on say, this site are more knowledgeable than I am - so if I got something wrong, it's always appreciative when someone politely corrects me. The last thing I want to do is disseminate false information, and doing so just makes me look bad.[/color]

[/size]So my hope would be that if someone sees any instagrammer/influencer/whatever you want to call them, post false information that you'd let them know, and then leave it up to them to correct.[/color]

[/size]I believe the ones that don't care or take that feedback personally are the ones that won't make it very far in the long run.[/color]

[/size]As for value, that's going to be different for different people. Most of the people that like following me, or Links Gems, Koenig or any others simply like seeing cool photos of golf courses and maybe a good story to go along with it. If you're sitting in an office dreaming about golf, that photo could be a nice short escape. Obviously there's value to the publisher (but I also think that's becoming increasingly less due to such a saturation of people posting golf course photos now, but that's a topic for a different day.[/color]

[/size]Bottom line from my perspective, false information should be corrected and it does matter. There is value in the photos themselves, but the amount of value will vary wildly by viewer.[/color]

[Anthony Butler]

To be fair to Jon, he may put together an annual calendar which he sells, but he is also very generous in sharing his (very good) golf course pictures. I think there is a benefit of him sharing them personally on places like Twitter and Instagram as it gets people excited about getting out to see new and interesting golf courses, and therefore more into GCA.

The matter of photos included in a calendar that is being sold for 'profit' is purely a matter between Jon Cavalier and the golf courses - and clubs - featured. JC Jones attempting to regulate this arrangement seem like the actions of a  10-yr old tattle tale who ends up eating lunch alone in her elementary school cafeteria.

[JC Jones]

To be fair to Jon, he may put together an annual calendar which he sells, but he is also very generous in sharing his (very good) golf course pictures. I think there is a benefit of him sharing them personally on places like Twitter and Instagram as it gets people excited about getting out to see new and interesting golf courses, and therefore more into GCA.

The matter of photos included in a calendar that is being sold for 'profit' is purely a matter between Jon Cavalier and the golf courses - and clubs - featured. JC Jones attempting to regulate this arrangement seem like the actions of a  10-yr old tattle tale who ends up eating lunch alone in her elementary school cafeteria.

Gotta love the LinksGems mafia....the best they have is calling me a 10 year old girl.  Was that meant to insult me or to insult girls and women?


I wonder if Jon Cavalier received permission from the Cypress Point president, who is a wonderful person with whom to play golf, or the board, before using those pictures for his own gain....

[Anthony Butler]

To be fair to Jon, he may put together an annual calendar which he sells, but he is also very generous in sharing his (very good) golf course pictures. I think there is a benefit of him sharing them personally on places like Twitter and Instagram as it gets people excited about getting out to see new and interesting golf courses, and therefore more into GCA.

The matter of photos included in a calendar that is being sold for 'profit' is purely a matter between Jon Cavalier and the golf courses - and clubs - featured. JC Jones attempting to regulate this arrangement seem like the actions of a  10-yr old tattle tale who ends up eating lunch alone in her elementary school cafeteria.

Gotta love the LinksGems mafia....the best they have is calling me a 10 year old girl.  Was that meant to insult me or to insult girls and women?


I wonder if Jon Cavalier received permission from the Cypress Point president, who is a wonderful person with whom to play golf, or the board, before using those pictures for his own gain....

Links Gem Mafia? That's Sad...

Sounds like you're planning on reporting Cavalier to your buddy from Cypress Pt. If so, you should probably mention that I played there with one of the assistant pros 20 years ago and I don't recall paying a visitors fee... please let me know where I can send the check.

[JC Jones]

To be fair to Jon, he may put together an annual calendar which he sells, but he is also very generous in sharing his (very good) golf course pictures. I think there is a benefit of him sharing them personally on places like Twitter and Instagram as it gets people excited about getting out to see new and interesting golf courses, and therefore more into GCA.

The matter of photos included in a calendar that is being sold for 'profit' is purely a matter between Jon Cavalier and the golf courses - and clubs - featured. JC Jones attempting to regulate this arrangement seem like the actions of a  10-yr old tattle tale who ends up eating lunch alone in her elementary school cafeteria.

Gotta love the LinksGems mafia....the best they have is calling me a 10 year old girl.  Was that meant to insult me or to insult girls and women?


I wonder if Jon Cavalier received permission from the Cypress Point president, who is a wonderful person with whom to play golf, or the board, before using those pictures for his own gain....

Links Gem Mafia? That's Sad...

Sounds like you're planning on reporting Cavalier to your buddy from Cypress Pt. If so, you should probably mention that I played there with one of the assistant pros 20 years ago and I don't recall paying a visitors fee... please let me know where I can send the check.

So you’re saying he didn’t have permission?


I think private clubs both want and have the right to control the dissemination about them, including images of their property.  Eventually it will catch up with these people and they will have their reputations and their coveted access impacted.

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