[JC Jones]

There is no doubt that the issues facing golf instagram are no different than any other area.  However, it wouldn't make much sense to discuss it generally on this forum.


Recently, a well followed photog and wannabe influencer posted pictures from Augusta Country Club and credited the course to Seth Raynor.  The current course is very well known to be the work of Donald Ross and recently restored/renovated by Brian Silva.  100 years ago, there was a Seth Raynor course associated with the club but it was on a different site and is very long gone.  And, this information is not well disseminated; while the course in question is not only widely known to be a Ross (there are pictures of his hole drawings next to the damn pro shop) but also to any well traveled golfer (especially one seeking social credibility and sales of photographs via Instagram) is quite obviously a Ross and even more obviously, not a Raynor.


My question is, should we care?  Does it matter if the influencers (at least as judged by frequency of posts and number of followers) are accurate?  What value do they have if what they are spreading is untrue?  Is there value to the consumer of these posts or is the value entirely for the one making the post?


**really trying to keep this isolated to golf**

[Tom_Doak]

There should be an enormous amount of "buyer beware" on Instagram, or on the internet in general.


I'm not sure there is . . . a lot of people seem to believe everything they read.  But there is no hope of someone policing such content, and if there was, then those people would quickly become the ones to fear, rather than the "influencers" you speak of.


EDITED TO ADD:  There is nothing wrong with correcting people in public, on their Instagram feed, when they say something inaccurate.  Some will adjust accordingly, and some won't.

[BHoover]

As someone with a keen interest in history, I think accuracy is paramount. I know you want to keep this focused on golf, but, particularly in light of current events, accuracy and truth should count for something.

[Bernie Bell]

The mistake was acknowledged and corrected on Instagram.

[Tom_Doak]

Recently, a well followed photog and wannabe influencer posted pictures from Augusta Country Club and credited the course to Seth Raynor.  The current course is very well known to be the work of Donald Ross and recently restored/renovated by Brian Silva.  100 years ago, there was a Seth Raynor course associated with the club but it was on a different site and is very long gone.  And, this information is not well disseminated; while the course in question is not only widely known to be a Ross (there are pictures of his hole drawings next to the damn pro shop) but also to any well traveled golfer (especially one seeking social credibility and sales of photographs via Instagram) is quite obviously a Ross and even more obviously, not a Raynor.

Also, to be fair, Brian Silva has spent a good part of his career claiming to be a guy who restores Raynor courses, or builds new courses in the same style as Raynor . . . and another part of his career claiming to be a guy who's an expert on Donald Ross.  It's not hard to see how a panelist guy who has seen a bunch of Brian's work could become confused.   

[JC Jones]

The mistake was acknowledged and corrected on Instagram.

All in the last 20 mins....now who is the "influencer"


My general point is still relevant and the mistake, to me, is ridiculous. 

[JC Jones]

Also, to be fair, Brian Silva has spent a good part of his career claiming to be a guy who restores Raynor courses, or builds new courses in the same style as Raynor . . . and another part of his career claiming to be a guy who's an expert on Donald Ross.  It's not hard to see how a panelist guy who has seen a bunch of Brian's work could become confused.   

"panelist guy".... the GCA.com pejorative term of choice.

[Bernie Bell]

To answer one of the original questions, 54,000+ followers, including me, find value in that account.  If I didn't, I'd just unfollow.  Easy enough to do.  Value for me is the photos, which I think are awesome.  I usually don't even read the text. 

[Michael Wolf]

The post in question was followed up immediately with a pretty easy to understand explanation - that the error resulted from LinksGems trying to consolidate the info you just outlined into a limited character limit. The error was noted within 15 minutes.


JC - you seem pretty focused on Jon with some of your recent posts, without ever naming him directly. If you think there are issues and you want to discuss with him, why not just reach out to him directly? Maybe you already have?


I know Ron Whitten has recently spoken very highly of the quality of the LinksGem account. And it seemed like the majority of photos in the recent Golf.Com T100 issue were his.


Michael

[JC Jones]

The post in question was followed up immediately with a pretty easy to understand explanation - that the error resulted from LinksGems trying to consolidate the info you just outlined into a limited character limit. The error was noted within 15 minutes.


JC - you seem pretty focused on Jon with some of your recent posts, without ever naming him directly. If you think there are issues and you want to discuss with him, why not just reach out to him directly? Maybe you already have?


I know Ron Whitten has recently spoken very highly of the quality of the LinksGem account. And it seemed like the majority of photos in the recent Golf.Com T100 issue were his.


Michael

Michael,


The post is two days old, the fix came 20 minutes after my post today; and again, its inexcusable.


Nonetheless, I did not reference LinksGems on this thread, who posts here often and is a member of at least one rating panel that I am aware of (not sure if he is a member of multiple rating panels) for several reasons including it being unfair to him to call him out directly (though Im sure he is aware you chose to call him out by name) because he is merely an example of some of the issues I am seeing so it was unnecessary to point him out and have the entire focus be on him rather than the general points.


Same reason I did not "report" him or any of the other people violating the Golf Digest social media policy whether by posting here or on other social media venues.  Im not interested in the individual actors.  Im interested in the systemic issues that provide the permissive environment for the individual actors.  They are but examples and symptoms of the disease.

[Michael Wolf]

JC,


I saw an acknowledgement and correction last night about 5 minutes after the original post?


What other mistakes have you seen? I find the social media accounts of Fried Egg, LinksGems and several others as adding a lot of value - for free - to a growing generation of younger GCA fans. Of all of the problems golf has, a rare error by enthusiastic young students of the game seems an infinitesimal price to pay.


Re the "reporting" - Normal magazine policies don't apply to photographers once they reach a certain level. Otherwise how would any of us have ever seen a picture of many private clubs? But if you had something reaching the level to "report", I'd again wonder why you wouldn't reach out to the alleged violator first?


Michael

[JC Jones]

JC,


I saw an acknowledgement and correction last night about 5 minutes after the original post?


What other mistakes have you seen? I find the social media accounts of Fried Egg, LinksGems and several others as adding a lot of value - for free - to a growing generation of younger GCA fans. Of all of the problems golf has, a rare error by enthusiastic young students of the game seems an infinitesimal price to pay.


Re the "reporting" - Normal magazine policies don't apply to photographers once they reach a certain level. Otherwise how would any of us have ever seen a picture of many private clubs? But if you had something reaching the level to "report", I'd again wonder why you wouldn't reach out to the alleged violator first?


Michael

You're proving my point and reasons for not calling out specific people by name.  Regardless, your middle paragraph is a good point and responsive to the questions I posed.  That is interesting to me.

[JC Jones]

JC,


I saw an acknowledgement and correction last night about 5 minutes after the original post?


What other mistakes have you seen? I find the social media accounts of Fried Egg, LinksGems and several others as adding a lot of value - for free - to a growing generation of younger GCA fans. Of all of the problems golf has, a rare error by enthusiastic young students of the game seems an infinitesimal price to pay.


Re the "reporting" - Normal magazine policies don't apply to photographers once they reach a certain level. Otherwise how would any of us have ever seen a picture of many private clubs? But if you had something reaching the level to "report", I'd again wonder why you wouldn't reach out to the alleged violator first?


Michael

Michael,


The post was edited to try and fix the error, unfortunately it still says it was reworked by Seth Raynor.  Which is incorrect.


Regardless, and to your point about contacting the "alleged violator" first?  Let's play that out:


"Dear Jon, I dont think you should use your rater card to access private golf courses and sell pictures of them on the internet". 


"Dear JC, good point, I'll no longer do that".

[Nigel Islam]

There are a couple alleys on the current Augusta CC that Raynor likely did work on to get to clubhouse. Their history is very sparse, and I'm not sure the club itself is entirely positive what Raynor did. I have the club history book, and it's murky to say the least. We DO have tons of contemporary newspaper adds that say Raynor recently redid the greens on the Lake course, and Ross reworked the Hill course. It's complicated.

[JC Jones]

There are a couple alleys on the current Augusta CC that Raynor likely did work on to get to clubhouse. Their history is very sparse, and I'm not sure the club itself is entirely positive what Raynor did. I have the club history book, and it's murky to say the least. We DO have tons of contemporary newspaper adds that say Raynor recently redid the greens on the Lake course, and Ross reworked the Hill course. It's complicated.

Nigel,


Firstly, there were two courses as you note.  The course that is currently there is the Hill course and Ross redid that course in 1927, which was after Raynor's death, so the post in question is still inaccurate  The club has Ross drawings of all 18 holes on the Hill course.  I appreciate your attempt to muddy the situation to the less informed in order to defend LinksGems, but what you're doing is nonsense.


But this is also indicative of modern day culture.  Influencer says "X", X is provably wrong, followers and fans of influencer defend the inaccurate and concoct incorrect statements so as to protect their beloved influencer.  Which is why I think its imperative for "influencers" to be accurate.

[JC Jones]

In an attempt to redirect my own thread back to the point, this isnt about LinksGems or Augusta CC.


But, the responses, especially the one referencing LinksGems's number of followers (as if that is the currency and in and of itself validates everything) are the core of what Im trying to get at.

[Jon Cavalier]

In an attempt to redirect my own thread back to the point, this isnt about LinksGems or Augusta CC.


But, the responses, especially the one referencing LinksGems's number of followers (as if that is the currency and in and of itself validates everything) are the core of what Im trying to get at.

Perhaps if you didn’t bury your points in personal vitriol, it would be easier to see what you’re getting at.

[JC Jones]

In an attempt to redirect my own thread back to the point, this isnt about LinksGems or Augusta CC.


But, the responses, especially the one referencing LinksGems's number of followers (as if that is the currency and in and of itself validates everything) are the core of what Im trying to get at.

Perhaps if you didn’t bury your points in personal vitriol, it would be easier to see what you’re getting at.

Jon, I did not mention you specifically but rather was citing an example of what I see as a larger problem.  There are other people that partake in similar actions but yours was the most recent so it became the cited example. 


I'm sorry you see this as personal, I do not know you and have nothing personal against you.  My criticism, while you may see it as cruel, is general in nature.

[Nigel Islam]

In an attempt to redirect my own thread back to the point, this isnt about LinksGems or Augusta CC.


But, the responses, especially the one referencing LinksGems's number of followers (as if that is the currency and in and of itself validates everything) are the core of what Im trying to get at.

I was just pointing out that what was said was not necessarily incorrect. Ogilvie, Raynor, Ross and members all had parts in the course. The whole premise of your thread was a mistake had been made. I don't necessarily feel this is a 100% accurate.

[JC Jones]

In an attempt to redirect my own thread back to the point, this isnt about LinksGems or Augusta CC.


But, the responses, especially the one referencing LinksGems's number of followers (as if that is the currency and in and of itself validates everything) are the core of what Im trying to get at.

I was just pointing out that what was said was not necessarily incorrect. Ogilvie, Raynor, Ross and members all had parts in the course. The whole premise of your thread was a mistake had been made. I don't necessarily feel this is a 100% accurate.

Nigel, there is 0 evidence that Raynor had any part in the existing Hill course; there is 100% evidence Donald Ross did.  I think you're reading something you want to read.

[Nigel Islam]

I'm actually not. There is really not much evidence Raynor did anything other than the greens at ACC, but when he did the routings of the two courses were altered some. Thus the current first hole of the course occupied the same land as the first hole of the Lake course. Now did Ross alter that hole? Did Raynor build that green? I'm saying I don't think the club really knows for sure.

[Tom_Doak]

Nigel, there is 0 evidence that Raynor had any part in the existing Hill course; there is 100% evidence Donald Ross did.  I think you're reading something you want to read.

Happens all the time.  There is sketchy evidence only recently made public that MacKenzie may have used quite a bit of Seth Raynor's routing for Cypress Point, but I have heard people speculate for generations that he did, because he was there first and they are a Seth Raynor fan.  And if the "accepted story" guy is not as famous as the "maybe he was involved" guy, the "theories" really start to fly, because higher pedigree might equal a higher green fee.

[Kalen Braley]

I was just discussing this issue with a friend.  I used to think the internet and the relatively free flow of information would be a savior of sorts to misinformation and a slayer of myth and such.  Boy was i wrong.  Big time.


Groups like the flat-earthers and anti-vaxers have never had it better!!

[Nigel Islam]

Nigel, there is 0 evidence that Raynor had any part in the existing Hill course; there is 100% evidence Donald Ross did.  I think you're reading something you want to read.

Well the trick is to use the facts without interjecting bias and opinion isn't it?

Happens all the time.  There is sketchy evidence only recently made public that MacKenzie may have used quite a bit of Seth Raynor's routing for Cypress Point, but I have heard people speculate for generations that he did, because he was there first and they are a Seth Raynor fan.  And if the "accepted story" guy is not as famous as the "maybe he was involved" guy, the "theories" really start to fly, because higher pedigree might equal a higher green fee.

[JC Jones]

I'm actually not. There is really not much evidence Raynor did anything other than the greens at ACC, but when he did the routings of the two courses were altered some. Thus the current first hole of the course occupied the same land as the first hole of the Lake course. Now did Ross alter that hole? Did Raynor build that green? I'm saying I don't think the club really knows for sure.

What’s evident is you have no clue and you’re attempting to obfuscate and pretend that because you have no clue that the club has no clue and therefore your friend wasn’t mistaken. 


See Kalen and Tom’s post after yours. 


Tony Pioppi, the president of the Seth Raynor society corrected the IG post to in question to point out the course is the Ross course and he was ignored.  The Raynor course is currently the country club hills neighborhood.


I get that Raynor is en Vogue right now but this reminds us old folks of Phil Young running around claiming Tilly did way more than he did.

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