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Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2019, 09:05:10 PM »
Mike - it’s not about par. Changing it doesn’t change the shots that are required. Honestly, I’ll just play Berkleigh up the road and have a smile all day long. If I need to get beat on Moselem will do that nicely in that neck of the woods.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2019, 09:34:16 AM »
Mike - it’s not about par. Changing it doesn’t change the shots that are required. Honestly, I’ll just play Berkleigh up the road and have a smile all day long. If I need to get beat on Moselem will do that nicely in that neck of the woods.
All good, Jim.  I love Berkleigh, as well, but unfortunately I didn't play there this year so it won't be reviewed, sadly.
But I did play Berskshire, so that review is coming in a bit.  :)
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2019, 10:04:46 AM »
French Creek Golf Club

Gil Hanse/Jim Wagner/Bill Kittleman/Jeff Broadbelt 2003

Doak Scale Score - 6


The short par four 15th hole presents numerous options, and is driveable from the member tees. (Photo courtesy of Hanse Golf Design)

I first walked French Creek back during grow-in with my friend Eric Pevoto who was pro at the time.   It's an appealing property in many respects, but has some inherent challenges.   Unlike neighboring Stonewall which is a pretty contiguous piece of land, French Creek really is on three separate parcels of land, separated by acres of wetlands and Route 401.   And while the design has any number of exceptional golf holes, it never quite overcomes the disjointed nature of the property.

French Creek comes at you with two of its very best holes out of the gate; the first running uphill along a ridge to a grade level green and the remarkable 2nd, a long par four with a green begging for a long-iron runner coming left to right.  Balls coming short end up in a valley where recovery options are not only possible but get the creative juices going.   

Unfortunately, at that juncture we need to get across wetlands and then a country highway and more wetlands.   3 becomes just a typical wetland crossing long par three and as good as 4 is once you cross the wetlands, some of the back tees simply don't work in any kind of headwind.   

And so it goes.   A sweet grouping of holes like 5 thru 7 is inevitably followed by necessary transition holes like the drop shot 8th, followed by another long tee shot required over wetlands on the otherwise wonderful 9th to a dual fairway, culminating at a punchbowl green.

It's a testament to how many terrific holes are out there that French Creek still remains a compelling round of golf despite the inherent limitations.  Still, terrific holes like 12 & 13 (both long par fours) are offset with clunkers like the 14th, which has been improved (i.e. made more fair) and opened up over the years but has me missing its formerly sadistic quality where death loomed on all sides of a tiny turtleback green. 

Thankfully, the course closes with four wonderful holes, including the inscrutable long par three 17th where Bill Kittleman built a fortress of a massive crossing bunker halfway up the fairway.

I guess the alternative on such a property was simply to feature long cart rides past all the naughty bits until the next parcel of land suitable for golf, but enough of those type of courses were built during the past several decades.  Instead, we get a very good, if flawed, walkable golf course with some great holes. 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 10:27:06 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2019, 11:39:57 AM »
Mountain Valley Golf Course (Mountain or Valley Course) -  Barnesville, PA

David Gordon/Herman Yadacufski 1968, Dan Schlegel/Brian Ault 1999, Inhouse 2008

Doak Scale Score - 2


As undeniably beautiful as the 600 yard 12th hole of the Mountain course is, I wish I could say there was more room on the right than this picture shows (there isn't), and I wish I could say the fairway doesn't cant sharply right to left before encountering an asphalt cart path and looming death in the woods, but I can't.

Exhibits A & B for using a professional architect, especially on challenging terrain, can be found in the 2 golf courses at the sprawling, ambitious, mountainous, wooded 36 hole complex in east-central Pennsylvania that almost no one but the locals have heard about.

Years ago I communicated a bit with late architect and he relayed to me that he routed the first 18 holes built here (which are now interspersed between the two courses), he left during construction because the owner refused to some things Gordon felt were necessary.   I played that course about two decades ago and it was much as one might imagine, lacking the fine touches and some needed width of playing corridors.   This year, I determined to play what's been built since and play both eighteens.

Around the turn of the century, Dan Schlegel of the Ault/Clark organization was brought to create nine more holes which are mostly visible from Route 81 and today remain the best of what can be found on the property, although those holes are also today interspersed between the two eighteens.   The group later routed another nine (also interspersed between the two eighteens today), but once again ownership determined that the playing corridors didn't need to be as wide as recommended and finished the job inhouse.

Somewhere there is a pretty good eighteen hole routing using Schlegel's nine, but it isn't in the two courses in evidence today.   Particularly on the newest nine, the holes are narrow, sloped, and narrowly penal to the extreme.   I can't imagine the number of lost balls that take place here on a daily basis as it's the land of "hit cart path, one bounce into the inpenetrable woods" and the paths always seem to be on the wrong side of play.   

Some yo-yo determined that the Mountain course at over 6,700 yards only merited a 130 slope rating, while the Valley course at slightly less yardage carries a 139 slope rating.   Each should be 140 or higher.   It is the ultimate Doak Scale 2 and if you play there, I hope you're in a scramble with several six packs of beer.




« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 11:43:50 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2019, 11:54:36 AM »
You north field types never really get it.


I'd be curious, Mike, if the Mountain Valley rating changes 10 years ago when it was still in the 27 hole configuration. The holes between I-81 and the Burma Road are quite good and the place went a long way to push me into an interest in golf architecture.


I wonder how much the 2 is influenced by the newest holes. The 16-18 stretch on Mountain is EASILY worth a 4 on their merit alone.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2019, 12:16:15 PM »
You're absolutely spot-on, Kyle.  I did say that somewhere there's a pretty good golf course on the property using the Schlegel nine, but regrettably, 4 of those holes on one course and 5 on the other aren't enough to save how bad the corresponding 4 & 5 are from the inhouse nine.   

Maybe as a winter exercise we can re-route the place?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2019, 12:21:36 PM »
You're absolutely spot-on, Kyle.  I did say that somewhere there's a pretty good golf course on the property using the Schlegel nine, but regrettably, 4 of those holes on one course and 5 on the other aren't enough to save how bad the corresponding 4 & 5 are from the inhouse nine.   

Maybe as a winter exercise we can re-route the place?


The routing exists. I think the holes within the elbow of the Brockton Road can be sacrificed (they're okay, but not worth keeping) as well as the newest holes, though the ones on the Valley nine are more playable than the Mountain.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2019, 02:09:18 PM »
Ah, Mountain/Valley. The bad so far outweighs the good that it's tough to see the forest through the trees. One of the true torture chambers to try to get your ball around. Admittedly there are some decent holes but it is not a fun day out. Pretty short run up I-81 from my house. In 14 years out here I have yet to hear anyone say that they liked the place and wanted to go back for another round. They stay in business however.


10 rounds of Mountain/Valley versus Rich Maiden...


9-1 Rich Maiden - the 1 is just to remind me that fun, enjoyment and some reasonable chance of finding a wayward shot is why we play golf.


 

Peter Pallotta

Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2019, 07:26:11 PM »
That proves it -- I'm a sap for aesthetics.
I look at that 15th hole at French Creek and can't honestly give a hoot either about it being driveable or about it presenting me with numerous options. It's just so darn attractive and yet challenging looking that it won me over at 'hello' -- like I'm Nick Charles and it's a lanky brunette with a wicked jaw.   

On the other hand, too bad about the 12th hole at Mountain Valley -- it too strikes me as an attractive golf hole, made better by the very things that Mike decries, ie the canted fairway and no room on the right and death in the looming trees. BUT, see: I think that's where the architects didn't trust and accept and embrace what they had, staring them right in the face. As a 340-380 yard Par 4, it would've been terrific -- but they had to go instead to the 'idea' of a true 3-shot Par 5, or they wanted to add length to the course so it wasn't too short etc etc, and thereby wrecked it.  Aesthetics, even for me, can only go so far...

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2019, 07:46:02 PM »
That proves it -- I'm a sap for aesthetics.
I look at that 15th hole at French Creek and can't honestly give a hoot either about it being driveable or about it presenting me with numerous options. It's just so darn attractive and yet challenging looking that it won me over at 'hello' -- like I'm Nick Charles and it's a lanky brunette with a wicked jaw.   

On the other hand, too bad about the 12th hole at Mountain Valley -- it too strikes me as an attractive golf hole, made better by the very things that Mike decries, ie the canted fairway and no room on the right and death in the looming trees. BUT, see: I think that's where the architects didn't trust and accept and embrace what they had, staring them right in the face. As a 340-380 yard Par 4, it would've been terrific -- but they had to go instead to the 'idea' of a true 3-shot Par 5, or they wanted to add length to the course so it wasn't too short etc etc, and thereby wrecked it.  Aesthetics, even for me, can only go so far...


In the Mountain Valley case it wasn't the architects but the owners who finished it on their own.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #85 on: December 07, 2019, 12:01:58 PM »
Applebrook Golf Club - Malvern, PA

Gil Hanse 2001

Doak Scale Score - 7


The wonderfully tranquil, pastoral look of Applebrook has been slightly compromised in recent years with the addition of housing (and shielding trees) along the left side of 17 & 18, but also affecting the backdrop of holes like the wonderful short par three (121 yards) 11th hole.   One can only hope this pattern doesn't continue.

Looking out at the broad expanse of Applebrook Golf Club from the hilltop clubhouse, it's tough to imagine this property was cleared and graded for commercial usage before a group of individuals looking to start a unique club in Chester County acquired the property and hired local architect Gil Hanse to design an old-school type golf course.

Some here on GolfClubAtlas may still recall when Hanse took a group of us around the course during grow-in after we had played his Inniscrone in the morning, one of the very first GCA get-togethers.   At the time, we were all younger and very idealistic and drooled over seemingly new concepts like the center bunker on the 2nd shot on 16, or the wild punchbowl in a dell green on the 3rd, or the way one could bounce it in from the right on the approach to the 10th.   Thankfully, these traditional concepts have aged well.  So has Applebrook, by and large.   

Most of the best of the course is due to the fact that the ground game can be utilized and unlike some courses that offer "options", angles of play really do matter here or the ball can get away from you in a hurry.   As with most Hanse courses, the best holes tend to be the half-par holes of both stripes, those like the driveable par four 3rd, or the 453 yard 13th (into the prevailing wind) that frankly steals the approach concept of the 13th at Pine Valley.   Very few shots in golf are more satisfying than being able to work a low runner from right to left on the approach.

Almost every hole offers something in the way of variety and the course benefits from a fantastic balance of tough and "gettable" holes, often interspersed one after another.    Both nines finish with uphill approaches (the par 3 ninth) and the long par four 18th to lovely greens set just below the clubhouse, but unfortunately, the kitschy waterfall and bunker nests splitting the two that the owners insisted on still remain.   

Some low-lying housing has also sprung up along the perimeter of the two closing holes.   These unfortunate intrusions of civilization and artifice are still not enough to negatively impact that wonderfully pastoral golf experience  that precedes them.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 12:08:14 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2019, 10:11:48 PM »


The 202 and 241 yardages I provided are from the back tees that play 7,103 yards.

From the 6681 yard tees the holes are 180 and 217, respectively.   Up another set to 6,200 they are 164 and 190.

Here they are for your viewing pleasure.





Thanks for the photos.  The first hole is really pretty; also very difficult, but it seems like they've got enough tees that most people can make the carry.


On the longer hole that follows, the fairway to the right is essential, but I can't say I like the hole nearly as much.  Then again, there aren't many 240-yard holes that I really like.


It seems like they pushed the yardage on the second hole to try to make them different, at the expense of making it very difficult.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2019, 10:18:38 PM »
I find Applebrook to be a pleasant member course but not very challenging or having much compelling variety.
AKA Mayday

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #88 on: December 10, 2019, 10:44:12 AM »
Berkshire Country Club - Reading, PA

John Reid 1903, Willie Park 1916-23, A.W. Tillinghast 1934, Kelly Blake Moran 2005, Ron Forse/Jim Nagle  2008-2019

Doak Scale Rating - 6.5


Pleasantly quirky surprises abound at Berkshire.  Here at the Alps 8th hole the green is set in a punchbowl along a quarry.   The golfer on the right playing from one of a nest of bunkers cut into the fronting hillside.

From the category of "hidden gem", little known Berkshire has quietly existed for well over a century, with the exception of the years 1947 through 1949 when it hosted the "Reading Open" on the PGA Tour.   

Starting as a nine hole course designed by local professional John Reid, in 1916 the club hired Willie Park, Jr. to design an eighteen hole course.   He told them he could only create 14 good holes on the land the club owned and they would need more for 18.   World War I intervened and it wasn't until the early 20s when the club acquired an additional 26 acres across the street where today's holes 11-14 were created, again to Park's plan, opening on Memorial Day 1923.

Today's course is  one of Park's best preserved,  rediscovered in recent years by an extensive tree removal, green-space recapture, and bunker restoration by Jim Nagle & Ron Forse.  The results are compelling and rate very high on the fun factor.   

Short by today's standards at just shy of 6,400 yards to a par of 71, there are a wide variety of hole yardages with par threes running from the 120 pitch into the quarry on the 9th to the uphill 203 yard 6th with the green set atop the rock quarry wall.   Par fours range from the diminutive uphill Alps 8th (302 yards) to beasts like the beautiful 470 yard 5th that runs through a natural valley to a shelved, plateau green.   There are only two par fives, the first which at 485 uphill could easily be a par four for tournament medal play for the card and pencil set, but the sweeping 552 yard 5th is another kettle of fish.   Set hard along OB right, and rising quickly from the landing area, it's a hole best played conservatively.   

Ultimately, it's the pitched, creatively contoured greens that are the heartbeat of Berkshire.   Being above the hole is never a good idea, but that's often difficult to achieve as many greens sit high on rises and shallow approaches to firm greens tend to run towards the back.   Thankfully, they are kept at speeds befitting their vintage and inherent challenge.

The front nine is terrific, culminating at a quarry coming imaginatively into play on 6, 8, & 9.  The back nine is a balanced mix of long and short holes with a street crossing, and reaches a crescendo on the long-par four 15th to a wild green, followed by a lovely mid-length par three, both under the shadow of the clubhouse.   

Ultimately, however, the momentum is sadly lost on the 367 yard par four 17th, truncated unwisely from a par five by a swimming pool in the 1950s, and the short uphill 18th over bunkers to a featureless green which looks to have been altered at some point. 

Still and all, this is not an invite to turn down. 
 


« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 10:47:02 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2019, 12:34:40 PM »
Indian Mountain Golf Course - Kresgeville, PA

Francis Warner 1927

Doak Scale Score - 2.5


This vintage family-oriented nine hole course provides a great value proposition in the wooded Pocono Mountains.

Indian Mountain was started with ambitious plans by some of the officials of the Golf Association of Philadelphia and designed by the organization's secretary Francis Warner (i.e Paxon Hollow).   It was originally intended to be an eighteen holes course with an airport and was touted as a cool, summer getaway.  Somewhat incredibly, news reports said the founders believed that in coming years personal aircraft would become as ubiquitous as the automobile and they envisioned that the members would each simply fly 30 minutes north to play conveniently.

Alas, the Great Depression and WWII intervened and only nine holes were cleared and built, sans airport.   Somehow, private ownership kept the place going and at one time a second nine of short par three holes was created, since abandoned.

What's left is a very modest, decently maintained course where one can pull into the gravel parking lot, pay a cheap rate in the small shed serving as a clubhouse, and walk or ride around a decent, forgiving course that manages to sneak three or four cool holes in at the end of the round.   

The first four holes are basic golf, going up and down the same broad slope and thankfully the area is largely gang-mowed to accommodate a wide range of abilities without a lot of searching for balls.  Things start to get more interesting once a climb is made to an upper plateau on the 5th which is a longish par four set into the sidehill, followed by the uphill dogleg left 5th.

The 6th is a superb par five where a large bunker in the right side of the fairway needs to be challenged to have any shot of going for the green in two, or having a decent angle for the second shot, which narrows quickly in the last 150 yards.   Following is a fun drop shot par three (pictured above), with a finishing par five where again an aggressive play towards a left-side fairway bunker is rewarded while the hole features lot of room to the right for the less adventurous. 

Cheap options to play the game are undervalued and Indian Mountain has been a place where I've brought my kids and nephews and hopefully soon my grandkids.   We won't be flying there, however.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 12:36:49 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #90 on: December 10, 2019, 12:52:21 PM »
No wonder Cory Lewis lapped you in courses played long ago - it's taken you this long to have a golf course I'd never heard of!

Terrain similar to Paxon Hollow? Paxon is easily a Doak 5, to me.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #91 on: December 10, 2019, 01:09:32 PM »
French Creek Golf Club

Gil Hanse/Jim Wagner/Bill Kittleman/Jeff Broadbelt 2003

Doak Scale Score - 6


The short par four 15th hole presents numerous options, and is driveable from the member tees. (Photo courtesy of Hanse Golf Design)

I first walked French Creek back during grow-in with my friend Eric Pevoto who was pro at the time.   It's an appealing property in my respects, but has some inherent challenges.   Unlike neighboring Stonewall which is a pretty contiguous piece of land, French Creek really is on three separate parcels of land, separated by acres of wetlands and Route 401.   And while the design has any number of exceptional golf holes, it never quite overcomes the disjointed nature of the property.

French Creek comes at you with two of its very best holes out of the gate; the first running uphill along a ridge to a grade level green and the remarkable 2nd, a long par four with a green begging for a long-iron runner coming left to right.  Balls coming short end up in a valley where recovery options are not only possible but get the creative juices going.   

Unfortunately, at that juncture we need to get across wetlands and then a country highway and more wetlands.   3 becomes just a typical wetland crossing long par three and as good as 4 is once you cross the wetlands, some of the back tees simply don't work in any kind of headwind.   

And so it goes.   A sweet grouping of holes like 5 thru 7 is inevitably followed by necessary transition holes like the drop shot 8th, followed by another long tee shot required over wetlands on the otherwise wonderful 9th to a dual fairway, culminating at a punchbowl green.

It's a testament to how many terrific holes are out there that French Creek still remains a compelling round of golf despite the inherent limitations.  Still, terrific holes like 12 & 13 (both long par fours) are offset with clunkers like the 14th, which has been improved (i.e. made more fair) and opened up over the years but has me missing its formerly sadistic quality where death loomed on all sides of a tiny turtleback green. 

Thankfully, the course closes with four wonderful holes, including the inscrutable long par three 17th where Bill Kittleman built a fortress of a massive crossing bunker halfway up the fairway.

I guess the alternative on such a property was simply to feature long cart rides past all the naughty bits until the next parcel of land suitable for golf, but enough of those type of courses were built during the past several decades.  Instead, we get a very good, if flawed, walkable golf course with some great holes.

More FC photos from a summer of 2016 visit:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/FrenchCreekGC/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #92 on: December 10, 2019, 01:11:32 PM »
Mountain Valley Golf Course (Mountain or Valley Course) -  Barnesville, PA

David Gordon/Herman Yadacufski 1968, Dan Schlegel/Brian Ault 1999, Inhouse 2008

Doak Scale Score - 2


As undeniably beautiful as the 600 yard 12th hole of the Mountain course is, I wish I could say there was more room on the right than this picture shows (there isn't), and I wish I could say the fairway doesn't cant sharply right to left before encountering an asphalt cart path and looming death in the woods, but I can't.

Exhibits A & B for using a professional architect, especially on challenging terrain, can be found in the 2 golf courses at the sprawling, ambitious, mountainous, wooded 36 hole complex in east-central Pennsylvania that almost no one but the locals have heard about.

Years ago I communicated a bit with late architect and he relayed to me that he routed the first 18 holes built here (which are now interspersed between the two courses), he left during construction because the owner refused to some things Gordon felt were necessary.   I played that course about two decades ago and it was much as one might imagine, lacking the fine touches and some needed width of playing corridors.   This year, I determined to play what's been built since and play both eighteens.

Around the turn of the century, Dan Schlegel of the Ault/Clark organization was brought to create nine more holes which are mostly visible from Route 81 and today remain the best of what can be found on the property, although those holes are also today interspersed between the two eighteens.   The group later routed another nine (also interspersed between the two eighteens today), but once again ownership determined that the playing corridors didn't need to be as wide as recommended and finished the job inhouse.

Somewhere there is a pretty good eighteen hole routing using Schlegel's nine, but it isn't in the two courses in evidence today.   Particularly on the newest nine, the holes are narrow, sloped, and narrowly penal to the extreme.   I can't imagine the number of lost balls that take place here on a daily basis as it's the land of "hit cart path, one bounce into the inpenetrable woods" and the paths always seem to be on the wrong side of play.   

Some yo-yo determined that the Mountain course at over 6,700 yards only merited a 130 slope rating, while the Valley course at slightly less yardage carries a 139 slope rating.   Each should be 140 or higher.   It is the ultimate Doak Scale 2 and if you play there, I hope you're in a scramble with several six packs of beer.

More photos of Mountain Valley (Valley course):

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/MountainValleyValley/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #93 on: December 10, 2019, 01:13:10 PM »
Applebrook Golf Club - Malvern, PA

Gil Hanse 2001

Doak Scale Score - 7


The wonderfully tranquil, pastoral look of Applebrook has been slightly compromised in recent years with the addition of housing (and shielding trees) along the left side of 17 & 18, but also affecting the backdrop of holes like the wonderful short par three (121 yards) 11th hole.   One can only hope this pattern doesn't continue.

Looking out at the broad expanse of Applebrook Golf Club from the hilltop clubhouse, it's tough to imagine this property was cleared and graded for commercial usage before a group of individuals looking to start a unique club in Chester County acquired the property and hired local architect Gil Hanse to design an old-school type golf course.

Some here on GolfClubAtlas may still recall when Hanse took a group of us around the course during grow-in after we had played his Inniscrone in the morning, one of the very first GCA get-togethers.   At the time, we were all younger and very idealistic and drooled over seemingly new concepts like the center bunker on the 2nd shot on 16, or the wild punchbowl in a dell green on the 3rd, or the way one could bounce it in from the right on the approach to the 10th.   Thankfully, these traditional concepts have aged well.  So has Applebrook, by and large.   

Most of the best of the course is due to the fact that the ground game can be utilized and unlike some courses that offer "options", angles of play really do matter here or the ball can get away from you in a hurry.   As with most Hanse courses, the best holes tend to be the half-par holes of both stripes, those like the driveable par four 3rd, or the 453 yard 13th (into the prevailing wind) that frankly steals the approach concept of the 13th at Pine Valley.   Very few shots in golf are more satisfying than being able to work a low runner from right to left on the approach.

Almost every hole offers something in the way of variety and the course benefits from a fantastic balance of tough and "gettable" holes, often interspersed one after another.    Both nines finish with uphill approaches (the par 3 ninth) and the long par four 18th to lovely greens set just below the clubhouse, but unfortunately, the kitschy waterfall and bunker nests splitting the two that the owners insisted on still remain.   

Some low-lying housing has also sprung up along the perimeter of the two closing holes.   These unfortunate intrusions of civilization and artifice are still not enough to negatively impact that wonderfully pastoral golf experience  that precedes them.

More photos of Applebrook from a June 2017 visit:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Applebrook/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #94 on: December 10, 2019, 01:14:28 PM »
Berkshire Country Club - Reading, PA

John Reid 1903, Willie Park 1916-23, A.W. Tillinghast 1934, Kelly Blake Moran 2005, Ron Forse/Jim Nagle  2008-2019

Doak Scale Rating - 6.5


Pleasantly quirky surprises abound at Berkshire.  Here at the Alps 8th hole the green is set in a punchbowl along a quarry.   The golfer on the right playing from one of a nest of bunkers cut into the fronting hillside.

From the category of "hidden gem", little known Berkshire has quietly existed for well over a century, with the exception of the years 1947 through 1949 when it hosted the "Reading Open" on the PGA Tour.   

Starting as a nine hole course designed by local professional John Reid, in 1916 the club hired Willie Park, Jr. to design an eighteen hole course.   He told them he could only create 14 good holes on the land the club owned and they would need more for 18.   World War I intervened and it wasn't until the early 20s when the club acquired an additional 26 acres across the street where today's holes 11-14 were created, again to Park's plan, opening on Memorial Day 1923.

Today's course is  one of Park's best preserved,  rediscovered in recent years by an extensive tree removal, green-space recapture, and bunker restoration by Jim Nagle & Ron Forse.  The results are compelling and rate very high on the fun factor.   

Short by today's standards at just shy of 6,400 yards to a par of 71, there are a wide variety of hole yardages with par threes running from the 120 pitch into the quarry on the 9th to the uphill 203 yard 6th with the green set atop the rock quarry wall.   Par fours range from the diminutive uphill Alps 8th (302 yards) to beasts like the beautiful 470 yard 5th that runs through a natural valley to a shelved, plateau green.   There are only two par fives, the first which at 485 uphill could easily be a par four for tournament medal play for the card and pencil set, but the sweeping 552 yard 5th is another kettle of fish.   Set hard along OB right, and rising quickly from the landing area, it's a hole best played conservatively.   

Ultimately, it's the pitched, creatively contoured greens that are the heartbeat of Berkshire.   Being above the hole is never a good idea, but that's often difficult to achieve as many greens sit high on rises and shallow approaches to firm greens tend to run towards the back.   Thankfully, they are kept at speeds befitting their vintage and inherent challenge.

The front nine is terrific, culminating at a quarry coming imaginatively into play on 6, 8, & 9.  The back nine is a balanced mix of long and short holes with a street crossing, and reaches a crescendo on the long-par four 15th to a wild green, followed by a lovely mid-length par three, both under the shadow of the clubhouse.   

Ultimately, however, the momentum is sadly lost on the 367 yard par four 17th, truncated unwisely from a par five by a swimming pool in the 1950s, and the short uphill 18th over bunkers to a featureless green which looks to have been altered at some point. 

Still and all, this is not an invite to turn down.

More photos from the day at Berkshire, a course I love:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Berkshire_2019/index.html
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 06:33:13 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #95 on: December 10, 2019, 01:29:15 PM »
No wonder Cory Lewis lapped you in courses played long ago - it's taken you this long to have a golf course I'd never heard of!

Terrain similar to Paxon Hollow? Paxon is easily a Doak 5, to me.


Paxon terrain steeper in several spots.  Indian Mountain just a pleasant course with a few cool holes.  Agreed on the 5.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #96 on: December 10, 2019, 02:42:51 PM »
United States Naval Academy Golf Course - Annapolis, MD

Harry Collis 1928, William Flynn 1944, Bob Williams 1954

Doak Scale Score 5.5


Cool holes like the little downhill shot to a volcano green are a big reason why so many are so fond of the course.

We were able to play USNA right before going under construction with a renovation project by Andrew Green, and I was thrilled at the opportunity.   The place is brimming with patriotic history and the golf course, while a bit tired, is certainly deserving of more love and care.

Anything I say here would be talking about the course as it was this past spring and I'll only say that the photos I've seen to date of the work look very encouraging.   As with most Flynn courses, the routing uses the natural, rolling terrain rather well, and although it's not possible to completely restore the course to what it was in 1944 due to some land use changes by the Navy, one hopes that the Flynn genius will be still clearly evident when the work is done.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 02:44:30 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #97 on: December 10, 2019, 03:12:25 PM »
Mountain Laurel Golf Course - White Haven, PA

Geoffrey Cornish/William Robinson 1970

Doak Scale Score - 3


Although it's largely a forgiving course, the par five 9th at Mountain Laurel requires a drive that splits the lane between two lakes before swinging uphill.

The late Geoffrey Cornish built any number of courses during this era in the northeast and they all seemed to provide reasonably interesting and sound golf with a twist or two thrown in and Mountain Laurel is no exception.   

Like 1970s bell bottoms, some of the features like his elevated bunkers, built into mounds for draining (I'm assuming) with floors often higher than the greens surface and their cloverleaf shaping are still a bit cringe-worthy.   The greens are almost all comfortably large, reliant on some tiering and softer, subtle slopes than anything wildly undulating, yet sometimes they can be more difficult to read than more severe greens.

Generally generous fairways and fairway bunkers only in the landing zone are the order of the day.   At Mountain Laurel, as at nearby Wilkes Barre Municipal, Cornish conjoins his first green with the green of a later hole (in this case the 7th) to create a double green that is surely a nod to his love of The Old Course.

But Cornish also seemed to enjoy a bit of novelty, and at Mountain Laurel the short par four downhill 10th requires an approach to an island green.   It may be an interesting trivia question to determine the first island green built post WWII but I wouldn't be surprised if this one is in the running.

The mostly open and gently rolling front nine becomes a bit tighter on the back nine as more severe, wooded terrain is navigated, but swaths are cut wide enough through the woods to be very playable.   Cornish saved the best for last as the uphill par five 16th plays Alps-like to a green down in a dell behind a steep rise, the 17th stretches out of the woods back into a lovely open plain, and the 230 yard par three 18th is another novel finish. 

Forgiving and playable throughout, I think the course belies Cornish's generous nature.   In the case of Mountain Laurel, the Doak Scale of 3 being about an average golf course shows that by and large, that's a pretty high standard overall.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 03:15:46 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #98 on: December 11, 2019, 09:59:27 AM »
Indian Mountain Golf Course - Kresgeville, PA

Francis Warner 1927

Doak Scale Score - 2.5


This vintage family-oriented nine hole course provides a great value proposition in the wooded Pocono Mountains.

Indian Mountain was started with ambitious plans by some of the officials of the Golf Association of Philadelphia and designed by the organization's secretary Francis Warner (i.e Paxon Hollow).   It was originally intended to be an eighteen holes course with an airport and was touted as a cool, summer getaway.  Somewhat incredibly, news reports said the founders believed that in coming years personal aircraft would become as ubiquitous as the automobile and they envisioned that the members would each simply fly 30 minutes north to play conveniently.

Alas, the Great Depression and WWII intervened and only nine holes were cleared and built, sans airport.   Somehow, private ownership kept the place going and at one time a second nine of short par three holes was created, since abandoned.

What's left is a very modest, decently maintained course where one can pull into the gravel parking lot, pay a cheap rate in the small shed serving as a clubhouse, and walk or ride around a decent, forgiving course that manages to sneak three or four cool holes in at the end of the round.   

The first four holes are basic golf, going up and down the same broad slope and thankfully the area is largely gang-mowed to accommodate a wide range of abilities without a lot of searching for balls.  Things start to get more interesting once a climb is made to an upper plateau on the 5th which is a longish par four set into the sidehill, followed by the uphill dogleg left 5th.

The 6th is a superb par five where a large bunker in the right side of the fairway needs to be challenged to have any shot of going for the green in two, or having a decent angle for the second shot, which narrows quickly in the last 150 yards.   Following is a fun drop shot par three (pictured above), with a finishing par five where again an aggressive play towards a left-side fairway bunker is rewarded while the hole features lot of room to the right for the less adventurous. 

Cheap options to play the game are undervalued and Indian Mountain has been a place where I've brought my kids and nephews and hopefully soon my grandkids.   We won't be flying there, however.

More photos of Indian Mountain from June of this year:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/IndianMountain/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #99 on: December 11, 2019, 10:02:07 AM »
United States Naval Academy Golf Course - Annapolis, MD

Harry Collis 1928, William Flynn 1944, Bob Williams 1954

Doak Scale Score 5.5


Cool holes like the little downhill shot to a volcano green are a big reason why so many are so fond of the course.

We were able to play USNA right before going under construction with a renovation project by Andrew Green, and I was thrilled at the opportunity.   The place is brimming with patriotic history and the golf course, while a bit tired, is certainly deserving of more love and care.

Anything I say here would be talking about the course as it was this past spring and I'll only say that the photos I've seen to date of the work look very encouraging.   As with most Flynn courses, the routing uses the natural, rolling terrain rather well, and although it's not possible to completely restore the course to what it was in 1944 due to some land use changes by the Navy, one hopes that the Flynn genius will be still clearly evident when the work is done.
More photos of the Naval Academy course from that day:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/NavalAcademy/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection