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Niall C

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Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2019, 02:14:53 PM »
Adam


I forgot to add that meeting a lot of people and even working with them isn't the same as influencing them, and also isn't the same as actually being good at design.


Niall

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2019, 02:54:28 PM »
As I have stated in another thread, picking a GOAT across a century+ is virtually impossible so not worth the time and energy.  Having said that, phrasing the question slightly differently might prompt more rationale and insights.  If you had a very good but not great piece of land, which architect would you choose?  Would your answer be different sandy soil v clay?


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2019, 02:58:38 PM »
Harry Vardon said that Colt's CC of Detroit was the best course he played in his 1913 US tour


Just those English guys sticking together.


Oh, I'm sorry, didn't mean to offend   ;)

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2019, 02:59:30 PM »
Adam,


I think you might be right about Colt being the greatest although like Tom D I'm not sure it is that worthwhile worrying whether he is the best or one of the best. Where I diverge from you is the idea that he invented or pioneered the plateau green, and also that he was the first man to make a living out of being an architect. If you want to see plateau greens in abundance then have a look at TOC which I believe pre-dates Colt by a few years.

Niall


Don't be a buffoon Niall and consider the word 'typically'
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2019, 02:59:57 PM »
Harry Vardon said that Colt's CC of Detroit was the best course he played in his 1913 US tour


Just those English guys sticking together.


Oh, I'm sorry, didn't mean to offend   ;)


lol
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2019, 03:02:22 PM »

Orrrr, maybe one reason Dr Mac hit the road was because Colt was kicking his ass in the UK ;D One thing which is very hard to do when discussing history is to fully comprehend and appreciate what these folks had seen leading up to momentous decisions and actions.



Indeed, there was less competition in Australia, and in California.


However a big part of MacKenzie's decision to go overseas must have been his acrimonious divorce, which made him persona non grata at Alwoodley, which had been his home base for twenty years.  I have never cared to dig very deeply into that, as it has nothing to do with his design work . . . but it must have been pretty bad, since when I visited there in the fall of 1982 the club were still disowning him.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2019, 03:16:34 PM »
Given the massive time commitment required just for travel alone in that time period, (pre commercially avaialble international flights), I wonder how many would have made those kinds of trips?  Just going from Europe to the US took what a week or so?  Can't imagine the journey trying to get to Australia from Europe.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2019, 03:26:54 PM »
Orrrr, maybe one reason Dr Mac hit the road was because Colt was kicking his ass in the UK ;D One thing which is very hard to do when discussing history is to fully comprehend and appreciate what these folks had seen leading up to momentous decisions and actions.
Indeed, there was less competition in Australia, and in California.
However a big part of MacKenzie's decision to go overseas must have been his acrimonious divorce, which made him persona non grata at Alwoodley, which had been his home base for twenty years.  I have never cared to dig very deeply into that, as it has nothing to do with his design work . . . but it must have been pretty bad, since when I visited there in the fall of 1982 the club were still disowning him.


The idea of being away from the UK during the British winter may have been an additional attraction, even more so if someone else was paying!
From his timeline it does seem that MacK' liked to time his overseas journeys to miss British winters (sensible chap!).
Atb


PS - as to his journey to Australia it took him a month to get there travelling on this ship, the RMS Otranto, quite plush though!


« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 03:35:05 PM by Thomas Dai »

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2019, 03:33:49 PM »
Given the massive time commitment required just for travel alone in that time period, (pre commercially avaialble international flights), I wonder how many would have made those kinds of trips?  Just going from Europe to the US took what a week or so?  Can't imagine the journey trying to get to Australia from Europe.


The flip side of this is that we shouldn't underestimate how much interconnection there was between the UK and US at this time. There were many, many ships sailing the Atlantic and while it wasn't like going to the next town, lots of guys travelled between the two quite regularly. Time was seen differently then, I think.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2019, 03:46:15 PM »
Given the massive time commitment required just for travel alone in that time period, (pre commercially avaialble international flights), I wonder how many would have made those kinds of trips?  Just going from Europe to the US took what a week or so?  Can't imagine the journey trying to get to Australia from Europe.


The flip side of this is that we shouldn't underestimate how much interconnection there was between the UK and US at this time. There were many, many ships sailing the Atlantic and while it wasn't like going to the next town, lots of guys travelled between the two quite regularly. Time was seen differently then, I think.

Hey Adam,

I didn't call this out as a slight on Colts perceived lack of travel, just more as context to the massive time commitments needed and i'm guessing most would have avoided it.

P.S. Perhaps for Dr. MacK it was a perfect escape thou.  Who knows what kind of side diversions and adventures otherwise he may have had along the way.  ;)

Thomas Dai

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Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2019, 03:50:55 PM »
That's a good point Adam.


After all CBMacDonald etc travelled over to the UK to see British courses a long time before MacKenzie travelled to Australia (or to the US or S America) and Colt went to the US before MacKenzie and others made trips including the likes of players Vardon, Taylor, Ray etc.


As an aside, could Colts reluctance to accept the Royal Melbourne invitation maybe be due in part to his wife's health? I may have read somewhere that her health wasn't the best.


atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2019, 04:40:00 PM »


As an aside, could Colts reluctance to accept the Royal Melbourne invitation maybe be due in part to his wife's health? I may have read somewhere that her health wasn't the best.



And this is why I hate discussions about "who is the better architect".  It devolves into things like MacKenzie's divorce and Colt's wife's health, and 100 other things that are so far removed from their courses, that it is crazy for us to be talking about them 90 years later.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2019, 05:11:28 PM »
As an aside, could Colts reluctance to accept the Royal Melbourne invitation maybe be due in part to his wife's health? I may have read somewhere that her health wasn't the best.
And this is why I hate discussions about "who is the better architect".  It devolves into things like MacKenzie's divorce and Colt's wife's health, and 100 other things that are so far removed from their courses, that it is crazy for us to be talking about them 90 years later.
Each to their own Tom, and we don’t often seem to disagree, but I have to disagree with you here.
There are often reasons totally unassociated with someone’s career or standard of work or activities that are highly important in their career or standard of work or activities. Dislike of or desire to travel, state of health or that of someone close them are but two examples.
There was a comment herein or elsewhere recently that was somewhat disparaging of James Braid because he didn’t design any well known courses in a certain country. Perhaps if the person making the disparaging comment had realised that Braid didn’t like being on a ship and back in his day it was the only way to travel between continents then they may have had better understanding. I similarly recall reading some negative comments about British golfer Neil Coles along the lines of why didn’t he play more in a certain distant overseas country, well NC hated flying!
Comparing just about anything has many levels but there are often levels below the surface that should be recognised as influencing factors too.
Atb


Kalen Braley

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Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2019, 05:18:13 PM »
Tom,

I've having a hard time squaring up your last comment in consideration of your comments about MacK that you volunteered in post #30.  I do think that Real Life can't be ignored in the aggregate, but yes its hard to look at subjectively...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2019, 05:24:00 PM »
Tom,

I've having a hard time squaring up your last comment in consideration of your comments about MacK that you volunteered in post #30.  I do think that Real Life can't be ignored in the aggregate, but yes its hard to look at subjectively...


I was ashamed to have brought it up, even though it was only in response to the question of why MacKenzie suddenly started traveling so far when he did.  That has everything to do with why he worked in some of the places he did, but nothing at all to do with his ability or talent for design.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2019, 05:38:03 PM »
Tom,

I've having a hard time squaring up your last comment in consideration of your comments about MacK that you volunteered in post #30.  I do think that Real Life can't be ignored in the aggregate, but yes its hard to look at subjectively...


I was ashamed to have brought it up, even though it was only in response to the question of why MacKenzie suddenly started traveling so far when he did.  That has everything to do with why he worked in some of the places he did, but nothing at all to do with his ability or talent for design.


Fair enough Tom,


I can certainly say for those who've had the pleasure of his playing his courses in Melbourne and/or California, it sure seems like golf course design would have missed out on some epic works!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2019, 05:44:35 PM »

Each to their own Tom, and we don’t often seem to disagree, but I have to disagree with you here.

There are often reasons totally unassociated with someone’s career or standard of work or activities that are highly important in their career or standard of work or activities. Dislike of or desire to travel, state of health or that of someone close them are but two examples.

There was a comment herein or elsewhere recently that was somewhat disparaging of James Braid because he didn’t design any well known courses in a certain country. Perhaps if the person making the disparaging comment had realised that Braid didn’t like being on a ship and back in his day it was the only way to travel between continents then they may have had better understanding. I similarly recall reading some negative comments about British golfer Neil Coles along the lines of why didn’t he play more in a certain distant overseas country, well NC hated flying!

Comparing just about anything has many levels but there are often levels below the surface that should be recognised as influencing factors too.
Atb


Thomas:


Yes, if you are the man's biographer, you should get into all of that, I suppose.


But if you are discussing his talent for golf design, as we do here, it is all pretty much irrelevant . . . just as it's irrelevant where Braid did or did not choose to work.  The thing that matters is what he built where he did work, not gossip about which jobs he didn't take / didn't get hired for / etc.


I take my stance as someone whose kids and grandkids may someday have to listen to some golf historian try to put my own life into perspective.  Do you think my son really wants to listen to someone speculate how my divorce from his mom affected the future of golf architecture, especially as said historian would probably never have met me or her or our son?  That's what the Jones brothers have had to put up with in recent years, because their dad built enough golf courses to be considered famous.


I'm pretty used to it by now . . . I've had lots of golf writers try to psychoanalyze me and comment on my character flaws, based on a limited number of interactions with me, and seen through the lens of their own character flaws and whatever narrative they are trying to build.  Two of the reasons I participate here are that a) I can answer such people directly, and b) there is a community of people who have interacted me for long enough to know that the accepted characterization of me as "difficult" is arguably wrong, or at least incomplete.  But, hell, MacKenzie and Macdonald and Pete Dye were all considered "difficult", too, so at least a part of me knows it can be a badge of honor.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2019, 06:03:09 PM »
there is a community of people who have interacted me for long enough to know that the accepted characterization of me as "difficult" is arguably wrong, or at least incomplete.  But, hell, MacKenzie and Macdonald and Pete Dye were all considered "difficult", too, so at least a part of me knows it can be a badge of honor.


Difficult or not, I’ve never had any other architect offer to meet up with me in another country and spend several hours walking me around a course he was developing. If that’s considered being “difficult,” we need more difficult people in this world.


My two cents ...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2019, 06:10:00 PM »
I'm reminded a bit of the recent discussion in the 82 thread re the GOAT, Tiger, Jack, etc.  Plenty of side convos ensued regarding life situations, injuries, competitors, time period, etc...and not just limited to those two as plenty of other epic athletes were compared.


I guess at the end of the day, the body of work in the ground is the primary comparison point, (and at least most of these guys courses still exist in some form).  We can also look to writings, drawings, and other commentary on golf course architecture to gain better context.



Mike_Clayton

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Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2019, 06:19:15 PM »
Maybe he would have been if he'd accepted Royal Melbourne's offer to remake their course - and at the same time done all the extra work MacKenzie took on around Australia.



In those days there was travelling - and then there was the prospect of a six week boat trip to Australia!!

Indeed, I have a hard time reconciling someone as the greatest designer ever who didn't want to travel far from home  :-\



Three trips to the US and Canada before World War 1, and his fingerprints all over Europe and he didn't like travelling?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2019, 07:23:23 PM »
I'm reminded a bit of the recent discussion in the 82 thread re the GOAT, Tiger, Jack, etc.  Plenty of side convos ensued regarding life situations, injuries, competitors, time period, etc...and not just limited to those two as plenty of other epic athletes were compared.

All that stuff came up because folks were trying to devise ways to determine that Tiger's wins were somehow more valuable than Jack's. Once that sort of analytics is passed off as mathematical fact all hell breaks loose.

I only raised the fact that Dr Mac was getting killed in the UK by Colt was probably all good reason to seek his fortune elsewhere. Jeepers, Colt was getting tons of great sites to work on then he is posthumously disparaged for not walking away from a goldmine. I guess that makes sense to some in the 21st century.

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2019, 07:57:22 PM »
I think there is a surefire way to determine who you think is best, but it takes trusting your intuition and the first answer that comes into your mind:
Think of a good course that you like by Architect X, and then ask yourself what architect you think would've produced a better design/course -- and note the very first name that comes to mind. Say Architect Y
Now repeat the process with Architect Y and a very good course he designed, and again note the first name that pops into your head as someone who you think would've made an even better course.
Keep going -- and when no name pops into mind, immediately and without conscious thought/rationalizations, you know that the last 'named' architect is your favourite, i.e. who you think is best.
No personal narratives or life histories involved, no textbook or second-hand analysis, no allowances made for the quality of different sites or for more/less travel or any other considerations normally considered relevant and/or astute.
Just a purely unconscious (or perhaps supra-conscious) 'knowing' that expresses itself unfiltered and immediately as soon as you ask the question, and as long as you don't try to block that real & honest & first answer that pops up 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 08:04:29 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2019, 08:24:40 PM »

I only raised the fact that Dr Mac was getting killed in the UK by Colt was probably all good reason to seek his fortune elsewhere.


This is like saying I fled the USA after 2002 because Bill Coore was killing me.  That wasn't a strategy.  You just go where there are good clients who want to hire you.



Was Colt really even that busy in the UK after 1924-25?  I'm nowhere near a book to look up the answer.  He had lots of competitors by then, and he was getting older.


MacKenzie, in the other hand, was never going to challenge to be the top guy in the UK.  His severe greens were already a cliche there, and he had no use for the committees who ran clubs.  It was only when he went to his beautiful sites on the west coast and to Australia and New Zealand, where he was the unquestioned expert, that the resistance to his work as an 'outsider' fell away and his critics had to stop dismissing him as a one-trick pony.


When I took MacKenzie as a role model I never imagined how deep the parallels could run!


Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2019, 09:14:51 PM »

I only raised the fact that Dr Mac was getting killed in the UK by Colt was probably all good reason to seek his fortune elsewhere.


This is like saying I fled the USA after 2002 because Bill Coore was killing me.  That wasn't a strategy.  You just go where there are good clients who want to hire you.



Was Colt really even that busy in the UK after 1924-25?  I'm nowhere near a book to look up the answer.  He had lots of competitors by then, and he was getting older.


MacKenzie, in the other hand, was never going to challenge to be the top guy in the UK.  His severe greens were already a cliche there, and he had no use for the committees who ran clubs.  It was only when he went to his beautiful sites on the west coast and to Australia and New Zealand, where he was the unquestioned expert, that the resistance to his work as an 'outsider' fell away and his critics had to stop dismissing him as a one-trick pony.


When I took MacKenzie as a role model I never imagined how deep the parallels could run!


Deep parallels because of cliched greens? Lack of patience with Committees? Or finding great sites in Australia and NZ? Or all of the above?


Ira

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is H.S. Colt the greatest golf course architect of all time?
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2019, 09:36:09 PM »

I only raised the fact that Dr Mac was getting killed in the UK by Colt was probably all good reason to seek his fortune elsewhere.


This is like saying I fled the USA after 2002 because Bill Coore was killing me.  That wasn't a strategy.  You just go where there are good clients who want to hire you.

Was Colt really even that busy in the UK after 1924-25?  I'm nowhere near a book to look up the answer.  He had lots of competitors by then, and he was getting older.

MacKenzie, in the other hand, was never going to challenge to be the top guy in the UK.  His severe greens were already a cliche there, and he had no use for the committees who ran clubs.  It was only when he went to his beautiful sites on the west coast and to Australia and New Zealand, where he was the unquestioned expert, that the resistance to his work as an 'outsider' fell away and his critics had to stop dismissing him as a one-trick pony.

When I took MacKenzie as a role model I never imagined how deep the parallels could run!

Well, circumstances usually help folks formulate a strategy. It could well be that Dr Mac's disposition didn't endear him to cheque signers.

Colt, even as a guy who was getting old, was still getting good commissions at the time Dr Mac started to hit the bricks. As you say, if you can't find suitable work in your backyard ya get on the bike.

As I said before, we can never know what guys were thinking based on what they saw. A lot of history only begins to make sense when we try to understand things from their PoV and time period.

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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