Any Questions?

[John Kavanaugh]

I am in the Florida GHIN system if you are interested in my scores and tees played. 5 birdies at Spyglass so yea I did feel at home.

[Jim Hoak]

John, I'm interested in your specific negative feelings toward Pasatiempo.  Generally, I usually agree with most of your thoughts, but I think Pasatiempo is one of the best and most interesting courses I know.  With the exception of Holes #6-7-8, which I think have major weaknesses, I would rate the other 15 holes as creative/challenging/artistic/and architecturally brilliant.  The greens are challenging, but fantastic.  The routing and use of the slope of the land on the back side shows the genius of MacKenzie.  And the joy of playing Pasatiempo is generally unsurpassed in my experience.  What am I missing?

[John Kavanaugh]

John -
 
Would you agree that Pebble Beach is one of the quirkiest great courses? The ditch on two, the tee shot on three, the size of the fourth green, the wall on six, the missing chunk of eight, the last one hundred yards of nine, the angle to the green on eleven and fourteen, whatever is in front of the sixteenth green, and finally, of course, that wretched tree in the middle of eighteen?

I do come away shocked and amazed at the trees in the middle of the fairway on 18. It is no easier for those of us who are guests to play around the support wires. 18 is as much smaller as 14 is bigger than I had imagined. Outside of that it seems as if that when you drive the ball between the bunkers and the ocean everything else is on you.

[John Kavanaugh]

The drive on highway 101 from Los Angeles north to Salinas/San Francisco is sensational.  I hope you enjoyed the drive.

Any thoughts you feel like sharing about the Valley Club?  It's a private club, so I understand if you're reluctant to share your experience.  One thing that amazes me about the course is how hard it is to see the prevailing slope of the valley on the greens.  You get disoriented there.

Sounds like a great trip, and as I said before, that drive is a favorite of mine.  Nothing like driving a car.

If I had 10 rounds to prepare for a one round match against anyone in the world it would be at the Valley Club. It is the most intelligent club I have ever played.

[Rob Marshall]

John,
Where is the Valley club?


 I have to say playing Pebble was almost a spiritual experience for me. I’m glad I played it when my game was pretty good. I walked most of the front nine in the late afternoon after my round. I could play there everyday for the rest of my life. I need to get back there with my son. My biggest regret was not being able to tell my late father about my round. As dumb as it may, it was magical.


How about the view from the first tee at Spyglass? Not many first tees have a better view.

[John Kavanaugh]

John, I'm interested in your specific negative feelings toward Pasatiempo.  Generally, I usually agree with most of your thoughts, but I think Pasatiempo is one of the best and most interesting courses I know.  With the exception of Holes #6-7-8, which I think have major weaknesses, I would rate the other 15 holes as creative/challenging/artistic/and architecturally brilliant.  The greens are challenging, but fantastic.  The routing and use of the slope of the land on the back side shows the genius of MacKenzie.  And the joy of playing Pasatiempo is generally unsurpassed in my experience.  What am I missing?

Jim,


Please, I don’t understand your comment on the genius of the routing. I found Pasa to be the least walkable course on the trip. I found the greens to lack any subtlety, the bunkers more suited for the Midwest and nary a contrarian stance that fought a primary slope. The course seems to be searching for an identity beyond that of a washed up athlete charging for autographs at a trade show. What did I miss?

[John Kavanaugh]

On some reflection Pasa today reminds me of the character Sharon Stone played at the end of Casino. A caricature of a beautiful woman turning tricks for $330 a pop. Except reality is just another $5 rock of crack some biker found in his saddle bag. Time has passed the ole girl by.

[Greg Chambers]

What were your scores?


Did you feel right at home at Spyglass Hill?


How much did you fleece from Smith, with your superior athleticism?


Did Dr. MacKenzie's optical tricks have any effect on you at The Valley Club? (How perfect was the agronomy there?)


Which Doorman gives the best BJ tips?

I played there in August and they keep it about as close to perfect as can be.  Bunker maintenance is amazing and they are cut so very tight as the good doctor would have liked. Generous fairways and more undulations than I would have thought. They bounced back very well from the mudslides and I know Tom helped with that. Bonus points for a really cool locker room / clubhouse as well.

Sorry Jeff, “The good doctor” could never have imagined the HOC that are achieved today.

[Jeff Schley]

What were your scores?


Did you feel right at home at Spyglass Hill?


How much did you fleece from Smith, with your superior athleticism?


Did Dr. MacKenzie's optical tricks have any effect on you at The Valley Club? (How perfect was the agronomy there?)


Which Doorman gives the best BJ tips?

I played there in August and they keep it about as close to perfect as can be.  Bunker maintenance is amazing and they are cut so very tight as the good doctor would have liked. Generous fairways and more undulations than I would have thought. They bounced back very well from the mudslides and I know Tom helped with that. Bonus points for a really cool locker room / clubhouse as well.

Sorry Jeff, “The good doctor” could never have imagined the HOC that are achieved today.

You are certainly right Greg.  Course maintenance and the green speeds that are achieved are quite remarkable compared to when they were designed. So the thought brought by Pete or someone else in a similiar thread of, "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" comes into play perhaps.

If Marilyn Monroe were alive today would she be natural or would she find plastic surgery too tempting? 

[John Kavanaugh]

John,
Where is the Valley club?


 I have to say playing Pebble was almost a spiritual experience for me. I’m glad I played it when my game was pretty good. I walked most of the front nine in the late afternoon after my round. I could play there everyday for the rest of my life. I need to get back there with my son. My biggest regret was not being able to tell my late father about my round. As dumb as it may, it was magical.


How about the view from the first tee at Spyglass? Not many first tees have a better view.

Rob,


The Valley Club of Montecito is an hour north of Rustic Canyon in a town as charming as charming can be.


I did not encounter a single hole at Pebble that I would not consider world class. The first at Pebble is in the running for the greatest opening hole in golf.


I honestly wasn’t impressed by the view off the first tee at Spyglass. It may even be my least favorite tee on the course.

[Rob Marshall]

John,
Where is the Valley club?


 I have to say playing Pebble was almost a spiritual experience for me. I’m glad I played it when my game was pretty good. I walked most of the front nine in the late afternoon after my round. I could play there everyday for the rest of my life. I need to get back there with my son. My biggest regret was not being able to tell my late father about my round. As dumb as it may, it was magical.


How about the view from the first tee at Spyglass? Not many first tees have a better view.

Rob,


The Valley Club of Montecito is an hour north of Rustic Canyon in a town as charming as charming can be.


I did not encounter a single hole at Pebble that I would not consider world class. The first at Pebble is in the running for the greatest opening hole in golf.


I honestly wasn’t impressed by the view off the first tee at Spyglass. It may even be my least favorite tee on the course.

If I knew how to post a picture I would. I thought it was pretty spectacular down the hill with the ocean in the background.

[John Kavanaugh]

Rob,


I get that but I had played MPCC and Pebble the previous two days.

[John Kavanaugh]

In defense of Pasa any course would feel bland after a day at The Valley Club. I have had several questions about the illusion of slope on the greens at VC. We were lucky enough to play with a non sadistic gentleman who warned us of our outcomes before our strokes. As a testament to the greatness of the greens and surrounds I broke a long time policy of mine and went back after the conclusion of a hole to attempt a shot the second time. I can’t imagine ever doing that again on any hole on any course in the world.

[Rob Marshall]

Rob,


I get that but I had played MPCC and Pebble the previous two days.

Got it

[Kalen Braley]

John,

This is a fun thread and being a cali native, I always enjoy discussion on courses in the golden state.  But its difficult to take your posts seriously with your comments on Pasa and claiming Pebble Beach just may have the greatest opening hole in golf.

I know you like to poke your proverbial stick, its what you do, but you may have jumped the shark on this one...

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


Have you ever played Pasa? I think think it is a given that Rustic is s better public course. That Spyglass is superior could be debated.


Exactly what isn’t perfect about the first hole at Pebble?

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Have you ever played Pasa? I think think it is a given that Rustic is s better public course. That Spyglass is superior could be debated.

Exactly what isn’t perfect about the first hole at Pebble?

I have John,

And I thought the course and routing was nothing short of terrific, even if do agree with the criticism of 6 and 7. But the back 9 to this day remains the finest 9 I've played and nothing short of brilliant design, variety, use of terrain, etc.  And I've played some pretty fine back 9s like Cypress Point, Pac Dunes, etc.

As for Pebble #1.  A slight dogleg right jammed between housing left and right with a one dimensional approach into a non-descript green with a bit of slope.  If I was using the DS to rate an individual hole it'd be a 4 at best. Hell I can name 5-10 better opening holes here in Utah...

[John Kavanaugh]

There isn’t any housing in play on one at Pebble. The range is so inconvenient that the tee shot is perfect for the first swing of the day. The green is as interesting as any on the course. You pay, you take a few steps, you play. A wonderful way to start the day.

[John Kavanaugh]

A slight change. Rather than play Cal Club for the second time on our 9th day we played the Cliffs at Olympic.

[John Kavanaugh]

Awesome itinerary John, very nice!

I'll be interested to see how you rate/stack them up at the end of your trip, with your analysis on why.

P.S.  Any plans to sneak in at least the back 9 at Pacific Grove while you're in Monterey?

The only question left to answer:


1. Pebble
2. Valley Club
3. Cal Club
4. MPCC Shore
5. Spyglass
6. Cliffs at Olympic
7. Rustic Canyon
8. Pasa

[John Kirk]

A late response.

Thanks for answering my question about Valley Club.  I like your answer, a thinking man's golf course.

I can see an argument for the 1st hole at Pebble Beach as an excellent opening hole.  The ambience at the 1st tee is hard to beat.  That the hole is pretty simple and straightforward, where a couple of straight, solid shots should get you a par, is a gentle way to test whether the player is ready.  And finally, it gets you out to the 2nd tee, where (for me) the excitement begins.

Another point about liking a less cited hole on a famous course.  I get that; when reviewing a golf course, I find that my favorite holes are often different than the ones regularly mentioned as special.


As far as Pasatiempo is concerned, we'll agree to disagree.  The course is close to where I was born and raised, and the coast range terrain is an environment I am fond of.  I also have different priorities as a golfer, and perceive the hilliness of Pasatiempo as a good walk to keep an older player/athlete in shape.  I may admire the 70 year old who walks that course more than the 70 year old who takes a cart and breaks 80.

Finally, the Valley Club is also a pretty demanding walk, though without some of the steep transitions (3 green to 4 tee, 9 green to 10 tee) that one sees on the front nine at Pasatiempo.

Having to preview the posts and put an extra backspace between paragraphs is a pain in the ass. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Watching the coverage this morning of the first tee at Pebble reinforces the fact that the first is one of the finest starting holes in golf.

[MCirba]

I still need to do this.


I've only played Pasatiempo and one other course on the peninsula that had back to back par threes.


I did walk much of Pebble that afternoon but my playing partner that day used to play there when he was at Stanford for $25 and wasn't about to spend $500.

[John Kavanaugh]

The key to enjoying Pebble is to play a few mediocre courses for north of $300. Pebble has held its value over the last 20 some years.

[MCirba]

The key to enjoying Pebble is to play a few mediocre courses for north of $300. Pebble has held its value over the last 20 some years.

John...I hear you there.


I saw enough to know I'd love it, even with the Palmerization of the window dressing.