[bill_k]

Played there recently-loved every minute of it. Great routing, incredible site. Somewhat reminescent of Shoreacres with regard to the glacial ravines the course is routed around and over. I was struck, however, by the numerous greenside bunkers that have been removed. I realize that there were many Von Hagge bunkers that have been exorcized over the years-but I am talking about bunkers that were original to the course. There are many, but the Road bunker on the par five 17th stands out in my memory. Granted, I have not played any of the more obscure Raynor courses such as Bellport or Minnesota Valley-but among the "high profile" Raynor courses is Camargo missing more of its original bunkering? Also, how cool would it be if Camargo restored the alternate fairways on the "Elysian Fields" 14th hole?

[patrick_burton]

Bill,

You may already that know Doak did the 'restoration' there a few summers ago. I don't know the extent of bunkers that were reinstated and the Von Hagge bunkers that still remain. You may want to contact Rob Stambaugh of Quality Golf qualitygolf.com (the contractor that did the work). He might know some of the particulars if you're interested.

[JLahrman]

Of the work that Tom Doak did, I'm not sure how much of it was restoring the existing bunkers and how much was reintroducing old lost ones.  I know of several that were redone, such as the one short right of the 16th green.  Maybe Tom can fill us in as well.  I'm certainly no expert on what bunkers have been lost over time there.

[Paul Richards]

Camargo is an absolute treat.  Of the Raynor designs, this is probably my favorite.  

[SPDB]

Bill -
I know that 12 (Channel) was supposed to be designed with an alternate fairway, but was scotched when Raynor died. Are you sure 14 had an alternate fairway?

I think the candidate for most lost Raynor (including MacD) is The Creek, which winnowed its number down to 3 !

Luckily most have been restored, like Camargo (or so I had thought). I know that there were bunkers on the inside of the dogleg of #4. Similarly, I had thought that most of the missing bunkers were in the fairway and not greenside.

[JLahrman]

SPBD,  Where were they going to put the alternate fairway on 12?  Unless the hole was going to be designed differently originally.  Fourteen would have more room to have a lower fairway heading up the right hand side.  Again, you guys are more knowledgable than me but the way the course is now I can picture an alternate fairway on 14 much easier than 12.

[Jim Sweeney]

12 was originally designed as a par 5. The alternate fairways were left and right of the cross bunkers on the 2nd shot. The design was altered because the club could not acquire the necessary land for the tee area.

14, I believe, is the original design.

16 was also to be a par five, but again, land was an issue. 17 was to be a par four from behind 16 green, where the forward tee is. Raynor died before holes 16, 17, and 18 were completed, and that may account for some of the changes.

I was told about these little pieces of course history by former head pro. Dick Plummer.

I can't respond to the question about a lost road bunker on 17, except to say that during the US Am qualifier I was in a deep, steep faced bunker in the left front of the green.

In an earlier thread, which addressed lost features on CBM and SR courses, I mentioned that I thought that 17 might have been a road hole, though noone at Camargo refers to it as such, though they identify redan, short, biarritz, Eden, et. al.

Perhaps Mr. Doak can answer this question about 17.

[JLahrman]

jesplusone (or anyone):  Regarding Raynor's death, I heard a rumor that the odd 16th green was a bit of a personal stamp of whoever supervised completion of the last couple of holes.  Any truth to this that you know of?

[SPDB]

Jesplusone:

Among the names of the holes as indicated by the scorecard, 17 is referred to as "Road," so I'm not sure what you mean. Even if it is a par 5, it still possesses the green end trademarks.

Charles Banks finished Camargo, and he had as good an understanding of Raynor as anyone. We need George Bahto to weigh in.

I can't recall whether 14 or 16 is the "Hog's Back" hole, if it is the latter that might explain why it seems so outlandish, but it is nevertheless a Raynor staple.

Not surprisingly, I tend to lose my memory of the last few holes, which may indicate more about my appreciation of Raynor than anything else could.

[George_Bahto]

guys - been away for a few days - will "weigh in" shortly ...  

[SPDB]

look at that. George is GCA's version of Batman. When in need he responds....in 3 minutes of being called.

[George_Bahto]

Camargo, a course Raynor considered one of his best!

They have a very nice club history completed about a year or so ago;(getting older by the day so can't remember exactly - hah).

I was honored they asked me to assist in the bio and architectural info for it but aside from that, the book is neat and they may sell it if contacted. I'm not sure exactly what their policy is - they printed 2000 copies.

Strange circumstances here.

The course was designed by Raynor and during the midst of the construction he died. William Neal, one of the good foremen the Raynor-Banks partnership had on their staff had been assigned to this job - "Raynor returned the Camargo site to check on the progress time and again and offered suggestions to construction foreman William Neal."  

With Raynor's death Banks and Neal were left to complete the project.

Banks' mother dies in the meantime and this compounds the  problem - remember they had about 30 jobs in various stages of completion;(include: Yale, Fishers Island, Yeamans Hall, and Raynor and just routed Lookout Mtn, Waialae, Mid-Pacific, Cypress Point and his last design in Florida just to name a few)

The course hired a new super and with much of Neal's work done, the remainder of the project (directing the crews) was left to the new super, Jackson and two members Fred Chatsfield, the grn chairman and his vice chairman, DeWitt Balch.

DeWitt Balch: "About all that was left to be done was to add a few fairway traps, construct bridges on Nos. 3, 5, 9, 12 and 18 and add a few ladies tees."

I think there was a bit of freelancing on two or three of the last holes. I could track it down in detail I guess - I have it in the files.

Camargo is one of my favorite golf courses - once the bogus bunkering gets out of there it will look more outstanding. As many of us know, some clubs move slower than we may like buyt there are ususally internal circumstances that cause that.

As far as calling it "lost" - not by me. This is one of the Raynor "greats."

That optional fairway on 12 never got built - it's on the other side of a crevice and I hope one day they will consider building it as Raynor originally designed it - I think it is feasible but it would certainly be a "project" - but how cool!

For what it was worth, I suggested they do it.

This is a great membership, a great club and a super golf course.

[George_Bahto]

SPBD: 14 is Hog-back

[Tom_Doak]

I'm traveling and do not have time to respond at length now, but if someone will bring this to the top next week I will give a full answer to questions raised.

I believe the club is basically finished with the restoration they will do.  Some of Raynor's old bunkers were a lot of sand and $ for not a lot of impact, and I advised them that not all were worth restoring to sand.  However there aren't that many "lost" bunkers ... maybe 25 of them that haven't been resanded, and most of which are still readily visible since they weren't filled in, just grassed over.  All of the 1963 work has been exorcised from the golf course now.

The 14th didn't have an alternate fairway ... the fairway just continued on down into that deep bowl on the right.  That would be a real maintenance headache if they tried to restore it, and certainly wouldn't be very popular as tight as they mow fairways today, everything would just wind up in a row of divots at the bottom.

[JLahrman]

Great Tom, I can't wait to hear more.  I see your point about the bowl effect on 14.  I believe that area sits low enough that it could be a split fairway if they desired, but I don't know that it would add much strategy.  I like it how it is.  The combination of the tee box alignment and the flag lining up with the gully makes it very easy to miss the fairway to the right through simple misalignment.

Side note:  Does the bottom of the hill on 18 get the divoted effect?  Most of the women and some of the men can't get it up the hill and the ball rolls all the way back down.

[Tom_Doak]

JAL:  I believe that someone did earthwork in the current 14th fairway post-Raynor so more balls would stay "up".  Certainly no one would opt to drive it down to the right if they had the choice, since it's blind and severely uphill on the second shot from there ... the hole was just designed so if you didn't hit a perfect drive the ball "trickled down."  Then again, in the old days with higher fairways the ball might not have rolled all the way to the bottom.

As for the 17th, most of the left front bunker was gone when we got there, and it was difficult to tell just by digging how deep and steep the original bunker had been ... it appeared that some earth had been removed from the swale in front by von Hagge.  So, we had to guess at the dimensions of that one.  This is in contrast to the bunker in front of 16, which had been buried under several feet of fill ... we had almost given up digging for it when we found it.  It's at least four feet deeper than I would have guessed.

That 16th green isn't that out of character for Raynor, it's just a bit more exaggerated of a version than some of his others.

[A_Clay_Man]

The virtuosa dancer Marie Camargo, who introduced the entrechat (elevation) for women, shortened her skirt to the middle of the calf and wore tights and what were to be the first ballet slippers (heelless shoes). Her rival, Marie Sallé (who was also the first female choreographer), was the first dancer to wear a filmy, liberating Grecian-style costume, made popular two centuries later by Isadora Duncan.

This course actually came-up in conversation, yesterday, and I was curious as to the name. I did some research and the ballet was all I could somehow corrolate. Is this who or why it's named?

[JohnV]

Adam,

There is a town of Camargo Kentucky south of Cincinnati.  Here is the history of its name, perhaps it came from there:

In the Mexican war Captain Turpin of Montgomery County raised a company of volunteers, who served with credit in the Unites States Army in actions in Mexico. Upon their return many of them having gone from the southeastern part of the county, they found a wide place in the Big Road, as the old highway leading into the mountains was called. There had been built a blacksmith shop (Foster's) and John Pendleton's wagon shop, and two or three residences, Dr. Ricketts', the Botts' and the Kitchens'. The soldiers dubbed the place "Camargo" in memory of a city of considerable note in north central Mexico, which they had visited. No doubt the euphony, and maybe some irony, suggested it. The Mexican city of that name was in honor of a world-famed beauty of the sixteenth century, whose charm had entranced many of the capitals of Europe.

[A_Clay_Man]

Upon further research the dancer Marie, took her Spanish Mother's family name.

But here is a description of her (the dancer), I couldn't help but share.

She is considered to be one of the most brilliant dancers to be seen, in particular for her sensitive ear for music, her airiness, and her strength." Though her elevation was limited by heeled shoes, she is credited with having executed the entrechat quatre. But what is far more important, by shortening her skirt a few inches she opened up unimagined vistas of technical possibility

Sound like Raynor?

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