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JESII

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Re: 82
« Reply #175 on: November 06, 2019, 02:19:37 PM »
I'd give Trevino the nod over Els...not by a mile, but decisive. 4 of his 6 majors had Nicklaus as runner up...while I think Els had all the talent in the world, the Tiger effect hit him harder than anyone else in my view.


I think I might take Mickelson over Watson now that he's won, and come close in two late career Open Championships...and I'm a Watson guy and never loved Mickelson.


One amazing stat I heard (although did not confirm) is that Mickelson never once won the money list, nor did he ever reach #1 in the World Rankings. If true, those stats amaze me considering he's won 50 times and is just now dropping outside the top 50 in the world and going to miss his first Team in 25 years.


All in, I'd put Tiger a very slim notch behind Jack right now but if he wins another major or a handful of significant events, I'd put him on top. The Mantle-Mays analysis hits home. Tiger was hands down the best player in 1997 and 2013 so that's a pretty long range. Was Jack hands down the best player across a 16 year window? Not each and every year, but that broad. 1962 - 1980? Tiger certainly owns the best best golf with his run from late 1999 to late 2002 I'd say.

Kalen Braley

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Re: 82
« Reply #176 on: November 06, 2019, 02:27:47 PM »
Jim,


Thats some very interesting stuff on Phil, i didn't know Phil was never #1.  Found this on another site:

"In addition to Lefty’s 270 weeks at No. 2, Mickelson spent 567 weeks in the top five, 786 weeks in the top 10 and 1,085 weeks – an astonishing 20 years and 10 months – in the top 20. That’s more than 2½ years longer than Woods spent in the top 20."

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #177 on: November 06, 2019, 02:34:48 PM »
If golf hadn’t been so sick of trashing Trevino they would have never welcomed Tiger with open arms. “Merry Mex”?!? Seriously. What a load of xenophobic crap.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #178 on: November 06, 2019, 02:42:51 PM »
Who is golf?






I'm sure he had a rough go, and yes the world was different in 1996 versus 1966...but Trevino was loved pretty early in his career, no?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #179 on: November 06, 2019, 03:24:40 PM »
Hmmm...  "Merry Mex" or "Fat Jack"?

I'd take the former....

P.S.  After Tiger won six straight national USGA titles, "golf" didn't have a choice, it was a case of ready or not here I come.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 03:31:56 PM by Kalen Braley »

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: 82
« Reply #180 on: November 07, 2019, 08:52:56 PM »
Short responses (please don't take them as curt, I'm just trying to be brief as I've had this conversation many, many times before).


Modern equipment has created the illusion of strength of field. Anyone can win because anyone can find the club face under pressure.
No. Try again. Equipment has hurt Tiger's ability to win. He'd have won more with poorer equipment for all.

It is convenient that you attempt to use math to support a point, but conveniently dismiss the most important indicator of greatness...and that is major wins.  If you are going to throw that statistic out the window then there is little point in continuing the conversation.

It's not convenient. I have said 15 >> 18. 15 wins against these fields is a greater accomplishment than 18 wins back when Jack was competing.

15 vs. 18 is almost the ONLY stat that favors Jack, and you have to ignore strength/depth to get there. Tiger was more dominant. Won more awards. Etc.


Nothing more to say about golf. Nothing the Jack haters have said convinced me that major wins is not the be all of measuring greatness.

Yeah, because the 1959 British Open was SUCH a tough victory. Gary Player, +1 major championships for winning that one.


Today's technology brings everyone closer together not further apart. With the old equipment Jack's superior skills were magnified not minimized, just go try and hit one of the one irons of his era. The first time I hit the ping eye 2's it was eye popping ::)   as the long irons were like trampolines and they went far and straight almost all the time. So be careful getting into any arguments that the equipment was to Tiger's advantage vis a vis the Bear! ;)

Yep. Equipment hurt Tiger's chances. It shrunk his advantage.


3. Finally, and most importantly, if you are EVER tempted to make the argument that Nicklaus was playing against comparable strength of fields, PLEASE take a minute, breathe deeply and do NOT say or type that; it is patently absurd.  How many Euros were capable of winning a major during Jack's prime?  What has happened to the level of competition in junior and college golf since Jack's prime?  What has happened to "lesser" professional tours since then?  Nicklaus had to beat great players, but he didn't have to beat a particularly large number of great players in a given week.

QFT.


I'm 67, and grew up watching Arnie and Jack and the rest; I know how dominant Nicklaus was, and I know the quality of the guys he beat, and all of that stuff.  So keep that in mind.

Many years ago, when he still published the Baseball Abstract every year, Bill James wrote at length about peak value vs. career value, using Mantle and Mays as the two examples.  Boiled down, James showed that Mantle was better in 1956 than Mays ever was, but that the career that Mays had completely eclipsed Mantle's.  The point is that there are two very different measures of athletic greatness.

The weird thing about the Nicklaus-Woods debate is that Woods comes out ahead either way; the ONLY way in which Nicklaus could be considered "better" is by majors alone, which is a made-up hybrid between peak and career.   And that form of cherry picking, in turn, makes the depth of field discussion pertinent.

So you've got this guy who is the only guy in the modern era to hold all four Grand Slam trophies at the same time, and pretty clearly played better golf in and around 2000 than anybody has ever played by any measure that you can think of; winning percentage, money, stroke average, majors, anything.  BUT, and this is the key point, the same guy is going to have won more tournaments in his career than anybody else, ever.  Think about those two things for a minute; he's Mantle in 1956 AND Mays for a career!
And there's a debate because? ???

Great post.

Which town is likely to film the best football team: the town of 500 or the town of 50,000? There's no doubt that the strength and depth of field are orders of magnitude greater now than in Jack's day.


At last !!! Someone has pointed out the flaw in the "Tiger is the greatest" argument. Ever since the inception of the Open in 1860, major victories have been the benchmark for how a golfer is judged. Jack's majors record was Tiger's benchmark and he hasn't beaten it yet. If and when he does he'll be the greatest. In the meantime give Jack his due.

That's wrong.

Jack himself changed what he thought determined the "best golfer" several times, and the media followed along. For awhile, it was Snead's mark of total tour wins.

Furthermore, just because you or someone else chooses to judge majors above all else doesn't mean I have to, or that everyone has to. And, even if we only consider majors, 18x << 15y, where x and y are the adjustments for strength and depth of field.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 08:54:34 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Terry Lavin

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Re: 82
« Reply #181 on: November 07, 2019, 09:23:35 PM »
Short responses (please don't take them as curt, I'm just trying to be brief as I've had this conversation many, many times before). 

Curt would be an appropriate moniker.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Sean_A

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Re: 82
« Reply #182 on: November 08, 2019, 03:54:28 AM »
Adjusted? Again, this concept is based on guesswork. It is not math which proves anything which is actually quantifiable. What's that saying, a bird in the hand...

I will take major wins in pocket all week long over majors not won because of tougher fields. Just as I would Jack's top competition over Tiger's. Its fairly close mind you, but decisive. I don't mind if you prefer ifs and maybes over trophies, it's the modern way of thinking when it comes to sports.

My take is the disadvantages of travel, medicine, course conditions, equipment etc in Jack's time are a wash with today's overall improved fields.   

Happy Hockey
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 08:45:28 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

archie_struthers

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Re: 82
« Reply #183 on: November 08, 2019, 08:21:29 AM »
 ??? 8) ???




The more I read this the more Sam Snead seems to be the least appreciated great player !

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #184 on: November 08, 2019, 09:12:54 AM »
Adjusted? Again, this concept is based on guesswork. It is not math which proves anything which is actually quantifiable. What's that saying, a bird in the hand...
Yes, adjusted for the strength and depth of field. People make these adjustments all the time. Hell, you're doing it when you count majors only. Tiger has more regular tour wins, so you're "adjusting" for the fact that 18 of the 72 and 15 of the 82 are majors by counting only those.

This despite of the fact that, for a time, Jack had declared his belief that equaling or surpassing Snead's all-time wins record would make him the GOAT. Until he realized how tough that would be, so he changed it to something else…

I will take major wins in pocket all week long over majors not won because of tougher fields.
Almost all (and we could probably drop the "almost") of Tiger's wins were against tougher, stiffer, deeper, stronger fields than Gary Player faced in the 1959 British Open. Jack himself publicly advocated on a few occasions against the number of club pros and part-time players that were playing in majors, especially the PGA Championship. Until the 70s, Jack played against a huge number of part-time tour players week after week. The British Open had weak fields, with top players skipping into the 80s and early 90s.

The game has gotten significantly larger, and the additional players are better trained and learning to compete and win from an earlier age.

Jack faced nowhere near the strength and depth of field as Tiger. And, despite facing stronger fields, Tiger has had more dominant years and more dominant wins than Jack. About the only number that favors Jack? 18 over 15. Citing things like "Tiger hasn't faced the likes of Arnie, Tom, Lee, etc." while ignoring that they too faced the same weaker fields, is just folly.
Here's a kicker: Jack is no idiot, and he understands that the strength and depth of field is much better now. He has on numerous occasions said that the average player today is much stronger, that it's much tougher to win these days, that Tiger's faced a higher challenge than he did. Jack even said in his biography - before Tiger had won a single professional major - this:

“Whether for the above reasons or any others, the fact is that, to be able to hold onto their cards, and earn a decent living, the golfers in the middle of the pack today have had to become as good as the players at the top were when I started out thirty and more years ago, while those in the top have become the equals of superstars of my generation.”


Tiger's opponents are not only stronger themselves, but they get to play equipment that narrows the gap between Tiger and them, they get to fly instead of driving like only the absolute top few players could do in Jack's day, their schedule is such that they can pick and choose their events instead of having to play 40 weeks a year to earn a living, etc. The list goes on and on.

Field strength/depth explains not only why Jack's top competitors also benefited with more major wins, it also explains why Jack was able to finish second or third or in the top ten as often as he did.

The simple truth is that Jack had to beat 10-20 guys any given week. Tiger has to beat 40-80+ capable of winning. And he's beat them 15 and 82 times.

I never said that math can absolutely 100% prove any of this. I have said or meant that it can give us some pretty strong probabilities. The likelihood that 17 or 18 or so of the top 20 players to ever play all played against Jack Nicklaus are exceedingly slim. The math strongly supports the idea that Tiger's fields have been substantially stronger than Jack's.


Just as I would Jack's top competition over Tiger's. Its fairly close mind you, but decisive. I don't mind if you prefer ifs and maybes over trophies, it's the modern way of thinking when it comes to sports.

Decisive, because you say so? Not all majors are as difficult to win as the others. See again: 1959 British Open. At a time when Americans were dominating golf, a grand total of FOUR Americans - none of any name or reputation at all - played. Two were amateurs. None made the cut. Yet there's Gary with another "major" title to his name, a major that was probably easier to win than the Met PGA Section Championship is today.

You know, the Montreal Canadiens have won 24 Stanley Cups. Never mind that many of them came back when there were six whole teams competing… 24 is 24, and that's all that matters, right? :P


Edit: fixed a few typos.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 10:33:59 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #185 on: November 08, 2019, 09:15:54 AM »
??? 8) ???




The more I read this the more Sam Snead seems to be the least appreciated great player !





Billy Casper says hi.

Sean_A

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Re: 82
« Reply #186 on: November 08, 2019, 10:34:33 AM »
Erik

So now its strong possibilities?  I guess we can couch our opinions in any way we wish, but I am not buying the math angle when you you reject the strongest math angle there is.

PS...trash the Habs all you like  8)

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael Felton

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Re: 82
« Reply #187 on: November 08, 2019, 10:44:47 AM »
Trevino won four of his six majors where Nicklaus finished second. Can you really believe that Lee would have had the same drive if he had immediately became filthy rich and accepted into the golf community like a modern Jason Day after only one major?


Win once, get rich, get hurt, tour the world and retire so a new kid can win once, get rich, get hurt, tour the world and retire.  A cycle of mediocrity that is played out from celebrity chefs to modern CEO's. Or maybe not, maybe huge piles of money at every turn doesn't change people. Never mind.


Well Tiger has had more money than he could spend since the day he turned pro. The fact that didn't deter him should count on his behalf no?


Counterpoint: [size=78%]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_White_(golfer)[/size]


I wonder how many other contenders didn't play professionally because there was no money in it. Nowadays, everyone with even a modicum of talent gives it a run.


Other thoughts. I think Tiger has won at least 35 tournaments in which the best in the world were all there (or virtually all there). 15 majors, 18 WGCs and 2 Players. There may well be more. I wonder how many tournaments JN won against a similar number of the world's best players. I was chatting with the captain of my club back home about 15 years ago. He played in the Walker Cup in the late 50s and early 60s and won the Amateur Championship in the early 60s too. I asked him if he ever played in the Masters. He said no. He was invited to play on a few occasions, but didn't know what it was so never did. Then one year one of his fellow Walker Cuppers went and played and came back and told them all they had to do it. The next time he played in the Walker Cup they changed the criteria so he didn't get another invite. I'm not suggesting that if he played it would have made the field stronger. But it's hard to imagine that the best players outside the US would have been playing in that.


142 consecutive cuts, 12 stroke win at the Masters, 15 stroke win at the US Open, 8 stroke win at the Open, 4 majors in a row, 7 out of 11, 89 consecutive rounds beating the field (this one blows my mind), 82 wins, 15 majors, 18 WGCs, 7 consecutive wins, another run of 6 consecutive wins and yet another of 5 consecutive wins (these in the context of no one else since 1953 has won more than 3 in a row). Tiger's been off the boil so long that it's easy to forget just how good he was. There is no doubt in my mind he's the best who ever played. Greatest is a more subjective word, so if you want to consider JN as the GOAT, have at it. I don't care. I don't agree either, but that's okay.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #188 on: November 08, 2019, 01:35:56 PM »
So now its strong possibilities?  I guess we can couch our opinions in any way we wish, but I am not buying the math angle when you you reject the strongest math angle there is.
No, I didn't use the word "possibility."

Jack's competition was quite a bit weaker than Tiger's. If you want to keep your head in the sand, go right ahead.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #189 on: November 08, 2019, 01:42:26 PM »
Erik,


How do you address the fact that Tiger used 18 majors as THE benchmark?

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #190 on: November 08, 2019, 01:53:59 PM »
How do you address the fact that Tiger used 18 majors as THE benchmark?
In two ways.

First, and let me be perfectly clear, this is the far, far less important one. The list Tiger had on his wall as a kid was an age-related list of the things Jack did, and they were goals for Tiger to beat at a younger age. Only after he was a professional did he kinda get talked into "18" by the media, etc. But Tiger, as a kid, wanted to accomplish what Jack did at a younger age. It was never (until the 00s?) about "18." Source (there are several, but here's one I could find quickly): https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/12/tiger-woods-jack-nicklaus-majors-had-on-wall-never-did-goals-accomplishments-by-age .

And second, and FAR more importantly… Everyone is free to assign their own values. Jack Nicklaus changed his mind several times about what would define the GOAT… at one time thinking that he should hold all four majors in one year, and at another time winning the most PGA Tour events… etc.

I don't have to agree with anyone, including Tiger or Jack, on how I define GOAT. Neither do you. Hell, I think Mario Lemieux is a greater hockey player than Gretzky for similar reasons. They also played in slightly different eras.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #191 on: November 08, 2019, 04:23:01 PM »
Is it just me or do I remember Tiger’s competition running scared?

David_Tepper

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Re: 82
« Reply #192 on: November 08, 2019, 04:37:36 PM »
John K.


It's just you!

Back in Nicklaus' day they said "He knew he was going to beat you. You knew that he was going to beat you. And he knew that you knew that he was going to beat you."

DT

John Kavanaugh

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Re: 82
« Reply #193 on: November 08, 2019, 04:43:05 PM »
Jack was second to Trevino four times and Watson never seemed to shy away. I’m not arguing who is the GOAT I’m just saying that Tiger’s competition was week like Ukraine.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #194 on: November 08, 2019, 04:47:25 PM »
If you are making the argument that the competition/depth of field that Nicklaus faced was the same or tougher than Woods, or anybody else playing currently, look at all the other levels of golf.  Better yet, find anybody who makes the case that ANY lower level of golf isn't vastly deeper and more competitive than in days gone by.  I don't think there is any debate about this, really.


Is junior golf deeper or not?  Is high school golf deeper or not?  College golf?  The "lesser" pro tours?  I think we could all reasonably agree that there are far, far more good, competitive golfers capable of winning tournaments at EACH of those levels than was the case before the golf boom.  On top of that, the competitiveness of those lower levels spurs young players to be more fit, get better coaching, play more tournaments, and so on. 


So how could the PGA Tour, which is the place where those who excel the most at those lower levels then end up competing for championships and dollars, NOT be deeper and better?  It simply isn't possible, and it's silly to argue otherwise.  If you want to argue that THE measure of who is the GOAT is major championships and ONLY major championships, that's fine, though myopic.  But strength of field and depth of competition as an argument FOR Nicklaus?  Please.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Peter Pallotta

Re: 82
« Reply #195 on: November 08, 2019, 04:53:34 PM »
This reminds me of the 'best player never to win a major' debate.
A lot of folks will say Monty, given his almost 40 wins on the Euro tour and exemplary play in the Ryder Cup. I understand that, and I'm a fan of Monty's on several fronts, and I can see why he'd be so designated.
But: what does it mean to be the 'best player'? Is it simply (Euro) tour wins?
What about the fact that be played (almost) exclusively a fade -- might this be considered a 'limitation' of sorts for a great player? Might it have hurt Monty's chances at Augusta and various US Open venues?
Is he in fact the 'best *golfer*' never to have won a major?
A better golfer than, say, Steve Stricker -- with some dozen wins on the PGA Tour? [For you strength of field types, you'd agree that for the bulk of Monty's and Steve's career, the PGA tour fields were much deeper, so # of wins shouldn't be determinative]. A better golfer than, say, Lee Westwood, with some 20+ Euro wins, and I'd say the best better ball striker of the lot, but hampered by only average putting. Heck, people poke fun at Scott Hoch, but he won about a dozen times on Tour too and was a heck of a golfer, and was one (easily miss-able) missed putt away from winning the Masters.     
All of which is to say:
If you're gonna talk about the 'greatest golfer' of all time, look to the individual skill set and not to a myriad of (sometimes speculative) outside factors. IMO.
Who played the game the best? Giving my opinion on *that* question is why, even being a Jack guy, I'd pick Tiger as the GOAT (oh, and also because Pat Burke, a tour player, says so).



« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 05:08:39 PM by Peter Pallotta »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: 82
« Reply #196 on: November 08, 2019, 05:04:12 PM »
Fuzzy And Bob Goalby both won the local tournament on the 9 hole course where I grew up. Sure the college kids shoot lower scores today winning the same tournament. Stronger field? I think not. When did more become better? I wouldn’t trade Trevino and Watson for the entire European Presidents Cup team. If I could name half of em.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #197 on: November 08, 2019, 05:36:15 PM »
With all due respect: Zac Blair is 47th in FedEx points. The same year Tiger won his 82nd tournament.

Peter Pallotta

Re: 82
« Reply #198 on: November 08, 2019, 06:08:01 PM »
With all due respect: Zac Blair is 47th in FedEx points. The same year Tiger won his 82nd tournament.
On the other hand, Fred Funk was really coming into his own right at the height the Tiger era. And at a fairly stocky 5 foot 8, he essentially embodied the 'modern athlete', so much better than those in the 60s.   

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 82
« Reply #199 on: November 08, 2019, 06:15:31 PM »
Did Fred Funk sow?

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