[Dan_Callahan]

As a Boston native, I've always been a Bobby Orr guy. But when it comes to GOATs, it's hard to argue against Gretsky. Is there any athlete in a major sport who holds all the major scoring records, and has put them so far out of reach it's laughable?


Arguments can be made in the other sports (although Jordan seems like a lock as well), but in hockey, I feel like the case is closed.


In golf ... Tiger's career isn't over. And more than any athlete in history, he's the one guy I would never bet against.

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan -
I'm a Toronto kid who so loved Bobby Orr that I refused to wear #4 -- even though I was a defenceman and the coach offered it to me -- because I didn't feel I could do it justice, and didn't want to besmirch in any way Bobby's name. [I suppose I was an overly serious 12 year old. I'd read his book, "Orr on Ice", six times, and I was still drinking tons of milk, just like he said he did, along with his steak, as his game-day meal.] And, while it's impossible to take a single thing away from the Great One, truly, from where I sat there was no one, nobody, no one ever, who could control a game and the pace of a game, and make it his own, both on defence and offence, like Bobby Orr. On one knee.
Despite what I said before about none of us knowing anything, I feel safe in saying that Bobby Orr was the GOAT.


Oh, and Ira: on basketball I'm much less sure, and I don't proclaim a GOAT. Jordan was magnificent, but if I were starting a basketball team today, and I had to pick one player to be its centrepiece, I wouldn't pick Jordan or LeBron. It would be Magic.   

[Kyle Harris]

Nicklaus didn't start the game playing hickories and switch to steel shafts, among other equivalent equipment changes that we've seen since the onset of Tiger.


Jack didn't move the golfing needle as sport such that he had to compete with the direct result of the influx of more talented/athletic people.


Jack dominated, yes, and perhaps moreso in his era than Tiger did across the span of of his (still going) era.


Tiger's Player and Casper as Koepka and Rory? So Jack's major pushes were before him and Tiger's are the result of Tiger?


I suggest that the amount of runner-up finishes also suggests Jack couldn't close it out the way Tiger could as well as suggest it shows the depth of the fields in the Tiger era.


Peak Tiger is beating Peak Jack 5&4.

[David_Tepper]

 Is there any athlete in a major sport who holds all the major scoring records, and has put them so far out of reach it's laughable?


Dan C.

Jerry Rice owns virtually every significant receiving mark. Some of the more notable career records include receptions (1,549); receiving yards (22,895 yards); most 1,000-yard receiving seasons (14); total touchdowns (208); and combined net yards (23,546). Rice has a hold on multiple NFL playoff and Super Bowl records. As of 2017, Rice holds over 100 NFL records, the most of any player by a wide margin.

Maybe not quite as dominant as Gretsky, but pretty impressive.

DT

[Ben Stephens]

Is there any athlete in a major sport who holds all the major scoring records, and has put them so far out of reach it's laughable?


Dan C.

Jerry Rice owns virtually every significant receiving mark. Some of the more notable career records include receptions (1,549); receiving yards (22,895 yards); most 1,000-yard receiving seasons (14); total touchdowns (208); and combined net yards (23,546). Rice has a hold on multiple NFL playoff and Super Bowl records. As of 2017, Rice holds over 100 NFL records, the most of any player by a wide margin.

Maybe not quite as dominant as Gretsky, but pretty impressive.

DT

Phil Taylor in Darts


Usain Bolt in Athletics


Michael Phelps in Swimming


New Zealand (All Blacks) in Rugby Union - probably the most dominant team in any team sport - just over 77 percent in wins since the 1880's in test matches. Incredible feat for such a small country with 4.5m people.

[Niall C]

Niall,


Who would be the other?


And to what to do attribute to Jack that Tiger hasn't done? 18 professional majors?


I always figured Jack would win the longevity argument, but now 22 years between majors versus 24 is a tie in my book.

Jim


I think there are several in the discussion for best of the rest. Sean mentions Braid which is interesting. Of that era many might pick Vardon since he won 6 Opens against Braids 5 but then Braid won the News of the World more times than Vardon. Braid's golden era was the first decade of the 20th century when he won all his Open's whereas Vardon only 1 during that decade, having won 3 before and 2 after. By that time Braid was concentrating on his club job and designing courses. Vardon did of course win the US Open but that wasn't in any way a major at that time. Arguably Braid's dominance might have continued if he had continued to concentrate on competitive golf and he'd be the one with more than 5 Opens to his name, who knows.


That said, Walter Hagen considered Vardon to be the greatest ever but then you could also add Hagen as a contender. Did Hagen not also win 5 Western Opens which were near enough majors at that time ? That's the difficulty with trying to compare different eras and basing it on what we now refer to as the majors. The list goes on but I think to be a contender you need to be (arguably) the best of your era, that's why I wouldn't include Watson even though I think he's the best links player I've ever seen.


Niall

[Niall C]

New Zealand (All Blacks) in Rugby Union - probably the most dominant team in any team sport - just over 77 percent in wins since the 1880's in test matches. Incredible feat for such a small country with 4.5m people.

yes, but 4.49m of them are rugby players 


Niall

[Peter Pallotta]

Peak Tiger is beating Peak Jack 5&4.

Luckily you have a fine career and a bright future as a golf course superintendent, so you'll never risk falling into utter ruin and abject poverty as a bookie. 

[JMEvensky]

Peak Tiger is beating Peak Jack 5&4.

Luckily you have a fine career and a bright future as a golf course superintendent, so you'll never risk falling into utter ruin and abject poverty as a bookie.

I'm with Peter. The argument can certainly be made TW was the better player--but peak JN was pretty dominant.

[Jim Nugent]

Peak Tiger is beating Peak Jack 5&4.

There is no possible way to know that. 

[Kalen Braley]

I also see Tigers lack of 2nd and 3rd place finishes due to much stronger fields.  When Tiger wasn't on, there was 10-20 other guys who were beating em and down the leader board he went.  But when Jack wasn't on?  Due to lack of field depth he was still getting those 2nd and 3rd place finishes.

David.

Excellent point, as a 9er fan how could I forget Rice!  Perhaps in Football we need GOATs per position! 

[Tyler Kearns]

As a Boston native, I've always been a Bobby Orr guy. But when it comes to GOATs, it's hard to argue against Gretsky. Is there any athlete in a major sport who holds all the major scoring records, and has put them so far out of reach it's laughable?


Arguments can be made in the other sports (although Jordan seems like a lock as well), but in hockey, I feel like the case is closed.


In golf ... Tiger's career isn't over. And more than any athlete in history, he's the one guy I would never bet against.

Dan,


I do believe that Ovechkin has the chance to break Gretzky's goal scoring record, and considering the current low goals per game era, I would argue Ovechkin is the best goal scorer ever. Time will tell, but Gretzky's career assists and point totals will never be touched.


Tyler

[Peter Flory]

One nice thing about the longevity of golf careers is that we have more cross over situations. 


Nicklaus beating Tiger at the 1998 Masters was pretty unbelievable.  Watson almost winning the '09 Open.  And now Tiger re-emerging to remind us that the new breed of players that we thought were so good really aren't when compared to his old man game. 

[Peter Flory]

Here is some nice footage of Snead at the age of 62 playing well enough from tee to green to win a PGA championship!  Only Nicklaus and Trevino scored lower than him.  This was the year before the birth of Tiger. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btoK_c43boA


That swing would look completely in place in 2019 on tour. 

[Tim Martin]

The one time I have picked: Michael Jordan.  Not exactly going out on a limb I admit.

Ira, interesting you say this.   Several other players have more or the same amount of rings than Jordan like Russell or Kareem while others like Magic, Duncan, and Kobe only have 1 less.

If anything the only GOAT by this criteria is Tom Brady as his 6 rings, (probably 7 after this year), blows everyone else out of the water.

Joe DiMaggio had 9 World Series rings.

[Sean_A]

The one time I have picked: Michael Jordan.  Not exactly going out on a limb I admit.

Ira, interesting you say this.   Several other players have more or the same amount of rings than Jordan like Russell or Kareem while others like Magic, Duncan, and Kobe only have 1 less.

If anything the only GOAT by this criteria is Tom Brady as his 6 rings, (probably 7 after this year), blows everyone else out of the water.

Joe DiMaggio had 9 World Series rings.

Piece of piss.  A few French Canadians hit double digit Stanley Cup rings. More importantly, Gretzy won the Hart Trophy 8 times on the trot!

Happy Hockey

[Kalen Braley]

I think there are some data points we can look at to measure the effect of weaker fields vs full strength ones in a apples to apples comparison.

I compared:
- The list of Masters Winners from 1997 to 2019, (the start of Tigers dominance, 1st major win). I used this as the Masters has the weakest overall field of any PGA tournament year over year.
- The list of winners from The Players Championship, the toughest field in terms of player rankings over the same time period (1997 to 2019).

Overall, while the Masters had 7 instances of a previous winner winning again in that time period, the Players only had 1 and the list of Masters winners is far less diverse.

Number of unique champions:  Masters 16, Players 22.
Number of repeat winners in time period:  Masters - 3, (Tiger 5, Phil 3, Bubba 2). Players - 1 (Tiger 2)
Number of winners who have won multiple Majors:  Masters 9, Players 4
Number of winners in Players never to have won a major: 8

While this only compares two tournaments, as stated they are the weakest overall field each year to the strongest one, and at least partially suggests its easier to win multiple times in the former scenario.

P.S.
As a smaller data point, Tigers wins seem to fit overall with Strength of field from easiest to hardest

Masters: 5
PGA: 4
The Open: 3
US Open: 3
Players: 2

[Tim Martin]

The one time I have picked: Michael Jordan.  Not exactly going out on a limb I admit.

Ira, interesting you say this.   Several other players have more or the same amount of rings than Jordan like Russell or Kareem while others like Magic, Duncan, and Kobe only have 1 less.

If anything the only GOAT by this criteria is Tom Brady as his 6 rings, (probably 7 after this year), blows everyone else out of the water.

Joe DiMaggio had 9 World Series rings.

Piece of piss.  A few French Canadians hit double digit Stanley Cup rings. More importantly, Gretzy won the Hart Trophy 8 times on the trot!

Happy Hockey

Sean-I think hockey is tougher to handicap as Gretzky won 4 Stanley Cups but many consider him the GOAT as his list of personal accomplishments is off the charts as you noted. That said he isn’t in the Top 50 for players with most Stanley Cup wins.

[Jim Nugent]

Kalen, it's easy to believe the Masters is the easiest major to win, because as you point out it has the smallest field, by far. 

Do you believe your other data about Tiger's wins have any statistical significance though? 

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, it's easy to believe the Masters is the easiest major to win, because as you point out it has the smallest field, by far. 

Do you believe your other data about Tiger's wins have any statistical significance though?

Jim

I'm guessing none of it is statistically significant by the technical definitions.     I'm just trying to bring some kind of qualitative analysis to the table, instead of talking about subjective stuff or heaven forbid wives.... but totally understand its a tough task.

P.S. I thought about doing something similar with the PGA and the Opens over the same time period...

[Pete_Pittock]

Looking at Wikipedia I was not impressed with most of the second place finishers when JN was the champion.

[Mike Schott]

Which life would you wish upon your son? Only a millennial would pick Tiger.

John, what does that have to do with who is the greatest golfer? But if you're interested, the life I wish upon my 9 year old son is whatever makes him truly happy.

[Craig Sweet]

I thought Tiger played as well this week as he has in maybe a decade. His irons were spot on, his putting was excellent, and he was driving the ball in the fairway. His swing looked loose and effortless....He was consistent...If he maintains this level he will win many more times....this year!

[John Kavanaugh]

Which life would you wish upon your son? Only a millennial would pick Tiger.

John, what does that have to do with who is the greatest golfer? But if you're interested, the life I wish upon my 9 year old son is whatever makes him truly happy.

Golf is a lifestyle. The greatest golfer of all time should project a lifestyle that that any golfer would be proud to emulate. Btw: That is one hell of a lot of pressure to put upon your son. Truly happy...Good one.

[Mike Schott]

Which life would you wish upon your son? Only a millennial would pick Tiger.

John, what does that have to do with who is the greatest golfer? But if you're interested, the life I wish upon my 9 year old son is whatever makes him truly happy.

Golf is a lifestyle. The greatest golfer of all time should project a lifestyle that that any golfer would be proud to emulate. Btw: That is one hell of a lot of pressure to put upon your son. Truly happy...Good one.

But if Woods ends up being the greatest golfer of all time by beating Jack’s major record are you going to hold it against him that he wasn’t a good husband?


That’s my wish for my son. I’m his father and of course I want the best for him. I’m an eternal optimist and he’s a great kid. I’m sad for you that you look at this in a cynical way.

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