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Mike_Young

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2019, 02:25:20 PM »

As long as we are wondering about ODG vices, should
we discuss whether they had groupies?  Or sexual orientation, etc.?
Or really, just any other noted personality quirks that stood out?  That might be interesting, as we know think of them as having more "character" than our current crop of gca (I think?)  And to stay on topic, whether any of those quirks affected their designs in any way?
JB,I wasn't calling it a vice.  I was considering it a tool...
Funny that no one has mentioned Desmond M designs...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

archie_struthers

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2019, 03:05:12 PM »
 ;D :D




But of course I did Mike 😘

Mike_Young

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2019, 03:10:58 PM »
;D :D




But of course I did Mike 😘
Archie,  Sorry...I just missed it...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Michael Dugger

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2019, 04:48:06 PM »
Seems like the low hanging fruit but Desmond Muirhead certainly comes to mind!
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2019, 05:04:59 PM »

As long as we are wondering about ODG vices, should
we discuss whether they had groupies?  Or sexual orientation, etc.?
Or really, just any other noted personality quirks that stood out?  That might be interesting, as we know think of them as having more "character" than our current crop of gca (I think?)  And to stay on topic, whether any of those quirks affected their designs in any way?
JB,I wasn't calling it a vice.  I was considering it a tool...
Funny that no one has mentioned Desmond M designs...



I have heard some architects (then and now) give particular attention and many field visits, depending on who else they can visit while in town, as one example.


As to drugs for design, alcohol is the most noted drug of choice reported back then.  Many great stories about that.


I suspect someone has done a study of 60's rockers and the effect of drugs on their music.  That might be the closest corollary to drugs and design, no?


Adam,  have to ask which Chicago School gca that might have been?  If it was at an ASGCA meeting, seems I probably would have heard the story, especially as a Chicago School descendant!  Can tell me off line, if you prefer. Thanks.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2019, 06:38:04 PM »

As to drugs for design, alcohol is the most noted drug of choice reported back then.  Many great stories about that.



Like what stories, exactly?  I am still waiting for someone to tell a story [ideally, verified] of how "mind altering drugs" have led to a better design.


In the meantime, I'm offended by the topic.  Perhaps those who have posted on this topic speculating about golf course design [without any evidence] can provide a story about how mind altering drugs affected their own work?

Kalen Braley

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2019, 07:01:15 PM »
Tom,

I can give one very specific example of a brilliant guy I've known my whole life.  Long struggled with ADHD growing up amid a host of other health problems and being regularly bullied in school. But when it came to computers and coding, he was a bit like the main character in Good Will Hunting, almost that level of genius.  Dropped out of college, but got his shot thru learning on his own and routinely schooled PhDs in chip design and came up with amazing solutions that were both simple and extremely innovative.  He holds dozens of patents and has held court with some high level players in the industry at very recognizable companies... (a few other interesting stories there, but perhaps for a different time.)

Anyways, he used legally prescribed stuff like Ritalin (Speed), regularly mixed in with other illicit ones, and many of his solutions would come to him when he was either on them or dreaming afterwards.  He could see these incredibly complex ASICs and FPGAs in 3D, all in his head... really amazing stuff. I've got story after story of how the architecture group would be stuck on something for days or even weeks and he'd spend a few hours on the problem and come up with a solution.

He was always very modest about it and to look at the guy on the street, you'd think he's a bagger at the local supermarket or something like that.  Trippy stuff...

P.S.  In the meantime, enjoy!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMktzmxGu5Y



« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 07:07:17 PM by Kalen Braley »

Mike_Young

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2019, 07:22:04 PM »

As to drugs for design, alcohol is the most noted drug of choice reported back then.  Many great stories about that.



Like what stories, exactly?  I am still waiting for someone to tell a story [ideally, verified] of how "mind altering drugs" have led to a better design.


In the meantime, I'm offended by the topic.  Perhaps those who have posted on this topic speculating about golf course design [without any evidence] can provide a story about how mind altering drugs affected their own work?


I NEVER MEANT TO OFFEND ANYONE...but I do think drugs have played a part in the art world for years; be it music, design,art ...Ritalin and Adderall being two.  As for myself, Ritalin takes something away from my creative vision but maybe not for everyone...


https://thethirdwave.co/microdosing/mushrooms/



https://www.ted.com/talks/rick_doblin_the_future_of_psychedelic_assisted_psychotherapy
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 07:26:18 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

archie_struthers

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2019, 07:41:59 PM »
 :'( :'(




Tom I'm quite sure many talented artists in almost any field have used drugs and or alcohol as either a stimulant or a crutch. Why would GCA's be an anomaly in this regard. Certainly no one is implying that being an artist of sorts makes you a likely suspect, or is necessary to succeed.


In my youth I caddied for some of the most successful people in the world both in NJ and Florida, getting to know many of them as few would. Most didn't use or drink to excess, but some did.


The smartest guy who I ever met wasn't one of them. He was a local guy who had multiple PH'D's and a  terrible addiction problem. I truly believe the world he lived in was just not fast enough. It bored him .He often challenged me on subjects which I thought was outside his wheelhouse and in mine, yet I quickly found he had no such blind spots. He was kind enough to ask me questions he probably knew the answers to better than I. He died from his affliction, and it was a terrible loss for many of us.


I think it was hard for him to live in a world that was so simple for him, and the drugs and alcohol leveled him out. Without them he may not have been able to cope.  Mike's query surely isn't too far fetched and indeed has been the predicate of some interesting discussion here on the forum.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 09:14:00 PM by archie_struthers »

Mike Sweeney

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2019, 08:32:37 PM »
I am still waiting for someone to tell a story [ideally, verified] of how "mind altering drugs" have led to a better design.



Tom,



I am quite active in the #AutismEconomy here in NYC, and I would guess that many/most of our population are on anti-psychotic medication(s). Risperdahl being a big one. We have participated as a family in opening two Autism Bakeries in Brooklyn and Tribeca:


https://www.facebook.com/mws13/posts/10105983400274685


https://www.weareinvictus.org


In addition, there are around 75 Autistics that now work for the Israeli Army and while this article does not state it, I know from a friend that started the program that they had to get waivers for medications:


https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/01/israeli-army-autism/422850/


In my travels, I have met a number of people from the "Outsider Art" community including a now-friend that collects art from people that were in what were known as "Insane Asylums" in the 50's and 60's


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsider_art





We have tried Medical Marijuana as a replacement for anti-psychotic drugs for our son, and I have actually corresponded with two GCAers about the experience. Unfortunately, it did not work and we try to do 90% natural supplements versus Pharma.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2019, 10:22:48 AM »
The smartest guy who I ever met wasn't one of them. He was a local guy who had multiple PH'D's and a  terrible addiction problem. I truly believe the world he lived in was just not fast enough. It bored him .He often challenged me on subjects which I thought was outside his wheelhouse and in mine, yet I quickly found he had no such blind spots. He was kind enough to ask me questions he probably knew the answers to better than I. He died from his affliction, and it was a terrible loss for many of us.


Wow, what a great attribute; an apparent disciple of Dale Carnegie.  I need to keep this principle in mind.


And thanks for the story of your experiences at PV.  On this cold, rainy morning in north Texas, it had me rolling in laughter.  Interesting how the popular images of these men "of privilege" as cold, stern, uncaring types are so far off.  Other than the # of 0s in their financial accounts and the benefits and responsibilities thereof, perhaps they are not much different. Your post also reminds me of how much I miss Tom Paul.  I hope he is doing well.


Mike Sweeney,


You are quite the Renaissance man. That's a provocative picture you posted on a subject I had not thought about.  I will need to get better informed.  I hope both of your sons are doing well.  Perhaps one day I will return to Manhattan and we can have a game.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2019, 10:37:15 AM »
 8) 8)


Lou, we both could have used some mind altering, soothing drugs after our battles with the gestapo running the government. Perhaps we found a better place , but it numbs you for a while.


As to Mr Sweeney on a daily basis he brings good karma to the world with his work. God Bless him and all who toil in the love of another. Makes me feel selfish just thinking of how I complain at times. The real beauty is it's not a burden but a blessing for him :-* :-*

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2019, 11:02:37 AM »
8) 8)


As to Mr Sweeney on a daily basis he brings good karma to the world with his work. God Bless him and all who toil in the love of another. Makes me feel selfish just thinking of how I complain at times. The real beauty is it's not a burden but a blessing for him :-* :-*
YEP....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bob Montle

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2019, 02:31:58 PM »
I was at a major university in the 60's.
From my experience, serious drug use was rampant - and I don't mean pot.

The University hospital conducted studies and paid volunteers to be tested before and after LSD.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Peter Pallotta

Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2019, 07:08:52 PM »
Bob,
well, at least we now know what Carlos Castaneda did after his vision-quest with Don Juan, ie
He settled in Arizona and took up golf, and developed a fascination for golden-age-styled golf course architecture!
 :)
'Is this Ixtlan, Don Juan?'
'No, boy - it's Sand Hills'



« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 07:51:03 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2019, 09:46:32 PM »
I was at a major university in the 60's.
From my experience, serious drug use was rampant - and I don't mean pot.

The University hospital conducted studies and paid volunteers to be tested before and after LSD.

I was at a major university in the 80s and drugs were rampant...same for high school.

I recall watching quite a good documentary about major rock bands through years who were well known for using drugs...the struggles the endured or failed to endure. At the end of the doc loads of band members were asked to give one piece of advice.  Almost to a man every one of them said stay away from drugs.  Beyond often not having enough meaningful to say past the 2nd album, the drugs didn't in the end help with creativity, building relationships and certainly not finances! 

It is very difficult to tell how creative one is (when under the influence (copared to sober) because of the obvious impairment(s).  I guess I am one to believe that in the vast majority of cases, drugs don't make non-creative/clever people creative and clever. 

Happy Hockey 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Kalen Braley

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2019, 12:55:55 PM »
Quote

It is very difficult to tell how creative one is (when under the influence (copared to sober) because of the obvious impairment(s).  I guess I am one to believe that in the vast majority of cases, drugs don't make non-creative/clever people creative and clever. 

Sean very true.

But the non-creative or clever were probably never gonna have a decent career anyways.  As I see it, drugs can transform very capable and gifted performers into elite ones, even if they must eventually pay the piper down the road.  I guess its the age old question....would you rather spend a lifetime of better than most, or be elite for a shorter period with a big drop/fall off afterwards? (The latter certainly happens with many American Football players)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2019, 03:33:05 PM »

As I see it, drugs can transform very capable and gifted performers into elite ones, even if they must eventually pay the piper down the road.  I guess its the age old question....would you rather spend a lifetime of better than most, or be elite for a shorter period with a big drop/fall off afterwards? (The latter certainly happens with many American Football players)

Yes, but the only known example of even that in golf course architecture is Mike Strantz, if you count chewing tobacco as a mind altering drug [which I would not].


I understand that medications are of help to millions of people in our society . . . and there are probably a similar percentage of golf course architects among them, as those in any other profession.  And I know that millions more self-medicate in all sorts of ways.  Probably the saddest part of growing older for me has been becoming more aware of just how many people are suffering inside.  I spent most of my earlier years staying very busy, so I wouldn't have to think about that myself.

I also understand that drug use among musicians and writers and other artists is a well-documented phenomenon.  [My purpose in asking for personal stories from other fields was simply to see how many of you enjoy discussing the topic when it hits closer to home.]  Whether the drugs have been responsible for making their work better or not is debatable,  but the presence of drugs in those situations is a documented fact.



Which is why the thread has offended me.  If the benefits were so obvious, there should be some examples in golf course architecture, but nobody seems to be able to offer one.  I can think of one or two whose careers were hampered by drug use, but none whose careers were enhanced.


Peter Pallotta

Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2019, 05:02:42 PM »
For me, the one great genius in jazz was Charlie Parker.
Many of his followers were convinced he was brilliantly inventive and lightening fast *because* of the heroin, not in spite of it.
When Parker was 'clean' and in his right heart & mind he urged them not to believe that.
Tragically, few of them listened.
[A recent book even seems to resurrect that old belief, ie about heroin being a key to Bird's mastery -- foolishly and wrongly, it seems to me.]
I think there's always been this false dichotomy out there: this 'the addiction & early death was the price he/she paid for his/her great talent'.
It's a narrative foisted upon us by hack & cliched writers who know nothing about either addiction or great talent.


« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 05:05:56 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2019, 05:21:35 PM »
Pietro

Yes, I tend to agree...a load of jazz musicians were sacked because drugs got in the way of performing.  I reckon the drugs were more about getting through life rather than for a creative kick. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2019, 05:43:00 PM »

You can't create great work passed out in the back of a car or when you go missing for a week ...
A lot of creative talent went to waste because they were under the influence and useless to those on site.





 
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Luke Sutton

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Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2019, 05:49:54 PM »
For me personally I have no problem discussing this topic... I give anesthesia for a living. It’s said that 50% of all anesthesia providers experiment with the sauce. I personal have never touched the anesthesia drugs but I can say with 100% certainty I would have never got into Duke’s anesthesia school without adderall. The GRE was a bitch for someone with an East Texas vocabulary.


As far as psychedelics I’ve experimented but can’t credit any real innovation or enlightenment to the substances. And for GCA I’d be hard pressed to believe all our great stuff done in the 20s-30s was under the influence because, we have no proof and those drugs we just not really popular until the 60s-70s. Maybe blame the drugs on all the shitty residential tracks and parklands we got in that time period.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2019, 06:30:13 PM »
I did not ask about guys abusing drugs.  TD mentions "hitting close to home" well my grandfather on my mother's side was  a small ton doctor with no partner and he basically self medicated to addict status but during those times it was acceptable for "doctors" because no one knew what was going on.  A flu epidemic or anything that made them have to work non stop brought about such.
I have used a shaper who was extremely talented (and at least one guy who visits this site knows of whom I speak).  He was out there and he would sometimes do mushrooms.  The guy was genius.  Whether ODG's did these things or not , I don't know but I am confident they ran in circles where it would have been easy.  They didn't call it the "roaring 20's" for nothing...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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