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Mark Pearce

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Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2019, 02:35:52 PM »
Quote from: Michael H on October 22, 2019, 12:44:05 PM
Has Huntercombe been mentioned?

Mr. X
No, it hadn't been.  Remiss of several earlier posters.


Scotscraig.
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James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2019, 03:17:31 PM »
Quote from: Mark Pearce on October 22, 2019, 02:35:52 PM
Quote from: Michael H on October 22, 2019, 12:44:05 PM
Has Huntercombe been mentioned?

Mr. X
No, it hadn't been.  Remiss of several earlier posters.


Scotscraig.


Scotscraig didn’t start with a par 3 when I played it a few months ago, but there is a par 3 near the clubhouse (the third I think as i played it).  Did the order change at some point?
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David McIntosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2019, 05:18:17 PM »
Quote from: James Reader on October 22, 2019, 03:17:31 PM
Quote from: Mark Pearce on October 22, 2019, 02:35:52 PM
Scotscraig.
Scotscraig didn’t start with a par 3 when I played it a few months ago, but there is a par 3 near the clubhouse (the third I think as i played it).  Did the order change at some point?

Scotscraig starts with two par 4s and the third is a par 3, as James rightly states.

I may have read on their website at some point that the first plays as a par 3 while they carry out maintenance work on the first fairway (likely during the winter/off-season). Don’t know if this is an annual thing or was just a one off.
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James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2019, 02:22:50 AM »
I knew I’d played somewhere else recently that started with a par 3, but I couldn’t place it.  I’ve remembered now - Cleveland.
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Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2019, 05:17:01 AM »
North Hants is another.


Kudos to Mark for the rightful chastisement over Huntercombe, before immediately throwing up all over himself with Scotscraig. Well played! ;D


I'll take a slap on the wrist for Bingley. It is indeed a short par 4, but as John rightly pointed out, was played as a par 3 when it hosted the European Tour in 1981 and '82. That's my abiding memory of the hole from attending as a kid. Probably the only Tour course in living memory to start and finish with a short hole? Also, a contender for the most gender fluid course. It transitions from gentle parkland through dense forest and out onto open, heathery moorland, before plunging back through the forest and into the park again for the final three holes. I'm with Adam. I really like Bingley.


That's a good selection of courses and more than enough to reel off if challenged. Not many from beyond the British Isles though. Are we Brits more accepting of this oddity than the rest of the world?




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Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2019, 08:34:38 AM »
I’ve played hundreds of courses in the US and Pacific Grove is the only one to start with a par 3, actually 2 in a row. Pleasant Valley CC in Mass. used to host the PGA Tour and for the tournament they started on their 3rd hole which was a par 3.
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Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2019, 09:41:25 AM »
The par-3 opener is something of a UK phenomenon, it seems.


In Wales, Ashburnham and Llanymynech start with one-shotters.


Arrowtown in NZ is another.
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Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2019, 09:49:38 AM »
The Donald Ross course, York Golf & Tennis in southern Maine starts with a 215 yard par three.
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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2019, 10:04:07 AM »
Yelverton
Southport and Ainsdale.
atb
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 01:42:20 PM by Thomas Dai »
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Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2019, 10:09:31 AM »
Myopia Hunt starts with a 276/263-yard par-3.5 (on the card as a par-4).


If your guys are that bent about opening with a par-3 and having a total par of 72, see if you can stretch it to 250 and slap a par-4 label on it. Solves both problems.
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Rick Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2019, 10:47:00 AM »
Westchester C C has a par 3 10th, but when the pros played there they always flipped the nines and started with a par 3....
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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2019, 02:29:29 PM »
It's 25 years since I played Scotscraig but it started with a par 3 when I played it....
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2019, 02:49:05 PM »
The DuckDuckGo internet machine shows very few US courses that begin with a Par 3.  It did turn up one--Cumberland CC in Maryland--where both Number 1 and 10 are Par 3s.


Ira
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Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2019, 03:12:50 PM »
Quote from: Mark Pearce on October 23, 2019, 02:29:29 PM
It's 25 years since I played Scotscraig but it started with a par 3 when I played it....



That's because you're sneaky long Mark  :D
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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2019, 04:46:06 PM »
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on October 23, 2019, 03:12:50 PM
Quote from: Mark Pearce on October 23, 2019, 02:29:29 PM
It's 25 years since I played Scotscraig but it started with a par 3 when I played it....



That's because you're sneaky long Mark  :D
If only.....
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2019, 05:35:07 PM »



Kilspindie starts with a shortish par 3.



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Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2019, 05:25:30 AM »
MacKenzie's excellent but completely overlooked Bury GC begins with a very good par 3. 


2.15 on the video   https://www.burygolfclub.co.uk/course-flyover




This isn't the start that Dr Mac intended however. The course originally began with what is now the two-shot 4th and ended on the current 3rd. The routing remains the same.

Bury is one of my favourite courses in the Manchester area and well deserving of a place in MacKenzie's second tier of designs after Alwoodley, Moortown, and Cavendish.


I'm playing there on Sunday with Ken Moodie and will post a profile next week. If anyone fancies joining us you're more than welcome.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 05:29:04 AM by Duncan Cheslett »
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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2019, 05:59:35 AM »
West Cornwall seems to be overlooked. It is a real toughie as well.


Of the courses I have designed or co-designed only once have I started with a '3'. Players Club Stranahan course.


Being commercial it was important I had something that could be played in 8 minutes. At 105 yards it is played to a big island. Plenty do go in the water, but it plays perfectly for a 4 ball in 8 minutes and we have no real issues with tee times backing up based on 45 seconds per tee shot, 60 seconds the walk. The 4 minutes left is plenty of time for the putting or extra tee shots!!! Our 200 yard 10th hole which plays 175 for standard play takes an average of 10'30" to play, naturally if everyone hits the green it plays to 8 minutes, but more miss this green and the bunker shots, recoveries from grass hollows can add up so some can take 13 minutes.


My thoughts would be if you can have a shortie gathering the ball rather than repelling, is best practice if it is commercial. If it not then it is a great natural spacer and flow regulator and a standard short hole is fine. I don't know this for a fact by would imagine something like the 1st at Meyrick Park would operate as a call through hole.
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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2019, 06:15:42 AM »
Apologies Adrian. I should have recalled your Stranahan 1st.
Atb
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Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2019, 06:18:45 AM »
I think Adrian is quite right.


A sub 160 yard par 3 that can easily be played by a 4 ball in 8 minutes or less can be a very good opening hole in that it spaces out groups perfectly. 


A 200 yard plus par 3 however, would make for a terrible opener, as most players would be taking second (or third) shots into the green resulting in an average time for a 4-ball of over ten minutes.


Even worse, a driveable (for a few) par 4!



« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 06:21:08 AM by Duncan Cheslett »
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Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2019, 06:38:05 AM »
Yes, that's the trick. Meyrick Park is about the worst possible model for an opener.


The issue in the case I'm describing is that the alternative is to play a blind tee shot over a rocky hillside behind where I would put the par 3 green. It's just long enough for weaker golfers to not make it and then have to play ping-pong off the rocks. There would be inevitable delays as the fairway is completely blind beyond. It would call for an Elie periscope to overcome the problem and there is unfortunately no other way around it due to associated developments. A par 3 is the pragmatic solution.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2019, 11:30:07 AM »
Quote from: Robin_Hiseman on October 24, 2019, 06:38:05 AM
Yes, that's the trick. Meyrick Park is about the worst possible model for an opener.


The issue in the case I'm describing is that the alternative is to play a blind tee shot over a rocky hillside behind where I would put the par 3 green. It's just long enough for weaker golfers to not make it and then have to play ping-pong off the rocks. There would be inevitable delays as the fairway is completely blind beyond. It would call for an Elie periscope to overcome the problem and there is unfortunately no other way around it due to associated developments. A par 3 is the pragmatic solution.


Robin:


If that's the case then you should just tell the client their plan for development makes a par-3 starter the only real option, and not waste time trying to tell them it's ideal.


I've only once considered using a par-3 for an opening hole -- it was at Stone Eagle.  The clients, who had developed several courses previously, just couldn't get their heads around it.  Then I suggested it as the 18th, and they didn't like that, either.  We wound up moving a mountain to find space for an additional hole out away from the clubhouse, so that the perfectly natural hole by the clubhouse site could be the 19th instead of having to start or finish with a par-3.
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Ben Stephens

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Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2019, 11:58:03 AM »
Robin,




Stinchcombe Hill opening hole is 265-270 yards - it feels like a long par 3 or par 3.5 - I have had an eagle on it before!
Painswick is 225 yard par 4  ;D :o
Panmure is a short 4 opener


So any chance that your design could be a short par 4 opener rather than a par 3?


I have not played Meyrick but my dad has and he felt that it was more like a short par 4


Another opening par 3 that I have just remembered - at my old golf club Thorpe Wood in Peterborough opens with a 190yard par 3




Cheers
Ben
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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2019, 01:00:50 PM »
Quote from: Ben Stephens on October 24, 2019, 11:58:03 AM
Stinchcombe Hill opening hole is 265-270 yards - it feels like a long par 3 or par 3.5 - I have had an eagle on it before!
It’s a rascally wicked wee risk-reward hole being blind from the tee and with a narrow green that falls away from front to rear ... and if a player hits over the back and down the severe slope well, it’s a horrid spot.
Well done for having an eagle there. I’ve seen a fair few double bogies there too!
Atb
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Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reputable courses that start with a Par 3
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2019, 01:28:31 PM »
Walton Heath Old! I'd say it's a very underrated hole as it is skipped for the composite course, but a hell of an introduction to the round at a modest 238 yards.
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