Formby "upgrades"

[John Mayhugh]

Saw this announcement on twitter earlier today.
https://www.formbygolfclub.co.uk/press-release-formby-golf-club-to-invest-750k-for-course-upgrades/

Not sure why making the 6th more of a dogleg will improve the hole. Confusion from the tee about how much room there is on the left works well already.

As for reshaping of the 8th, I think that hole has some challenge by making driver a difficult shot for longer hitters. Hopefully they don't simply add distance and then provide a larger landing area to make up for it.

The changes to 16 just sound like eye candy.

[JWinick]

They must have listened to me about the 6th hole!  Not crazy about a blind tee shot and second shot.   It didn't help that I ruined my nine on it!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Certainly going to be in good hands if the project at Hirono is anything to go by

[Tom_Doak]

It amazes me how nearly every course in the UK is suddenly in need of routing changes etc.


Is this a function of inaction on equipment, or of choice?

[Sean_A]

It amazes me how nearly every course in the UK is suddenly in need of routing changes etc.


Is this a function of inaction on equipment, or of choice?

I don't have a clue what the hell is going on, but these meaningless changes going on everywhere is a disease. What the devil is wrong with 6? If they want to waste money foofoo the bunkers and be done with it. 8 is difficult as is because the drive is hard. I don't understand the deal with 16.  Fake dunes? These guys are planning a fake dune on Burnham's 12th right after they finish modernising the 14th green  . Is this the new foofoo bunkers, fake dunes?

Happy Hockey

[jeffwarne]

19 million less than Merion
a bargain


Logically speaking by extrapolation that makes Formby 20 times better than Merion(pre renovation)

[John Mayhugh]

Certainly going to be in good hands if the project at Hirono is anything to go by

I am curious why you think that? Are you basing your opinion on seeing the course before/after or on viewing the promotional material provided by M&E?
I'll agree that the photos I've seen look very good, but I have much less of an understanding if the work done was better than another firm would have done or even if they worked on the "right" things.

To me, it seems like the UK especially has a "keeping up with the Rota" problem. All of the Open courses are "improving," so that same desire hits other less prominent clubs. Hiring M&E is seemingly a bulletproof decision as they have worked at so many top places. I would hazard a guess that no firm is better at marketing/networking with UK clubs. From looking at the Formby press release, in addition to getting your course fit to host top tournaments, they can also solve your future coastal erosion problem.

From what little I've seen, the quality of their work seems good, but I also feel like the word "sympathetic" is used too often. That's sort of code for "I know better," isn't it? I also don't think it's healthy to have one firm working everywhere, as you are likely to lose some variety.

Probably too hard on them based on my disgust with their plans for the 9th at Westward Ho!

[John Mayhugh]

They must have listened to me about the 6th hole!  Not crazy about a blind tee shot and second shot.   It didn't help that I ruined my nine on it!

The tee shot is only blind when you make it so. It's possible to play a shorter shot off the tee to avoid the bunkers & blindness, leaving a longer approach. From the whites, the hole is 400. Hit it 230 off the tee, no blindness, and have a 170 shot in. When they turn the hole into "more of a dogleg," the option of accepting some blindness on the tee shot will probably go away, as will the bunkers on the right side of the fairway. Probably will have a bunker somewhere on the left side, and just rough on the right (can't bunker outside of a dogleg, after all). Carrying the hill will be largely out of play and the hole will be both "fairer" and blander. Yawn.

[JWinick]

I played it a month ago.   I think it’s blind from the tee box that was in play that day. 

They must have listened to me about the 6th hole!  Not crazy about a blind tee shot and second shot.   It didn't help that I ruined my nine on it!

The tee shot is only blind when you make it so. It's possible to play a shorter shot off the tee to avoid the bunkers & blindness, leaving a longer approach. From the whites, the hole is 400. Hit it 230 off the tee, no blindness, and have a 170 shot in. When they turn the hole into "more of a dogleg," the option of accepting some blindness on the tee shot will probably go away, as will the bunkers on the right side of the fairway. Probably will have a bunker somewhere on the left side, and just rough on the right (can't bunker outside of a dogleg, after all). Carrying the hill will be largely out of play and the hole will be both "fairer" and blander. Yawn.

[Lou_Duran]

Probably too hard on them based on my disgust with their plans for the 9th at Westward Ho!

You might have chosen a better example to express your dislike.  M & E seems to be the Fazio of the RoW.  I suspect that the firm is successful because it provides value to its customers.  I think that the work at Turnberry, R. Portrush, and R. Dornoch is outstanding.  Western Ho!, IMO, can use all the help it can get.  History aside, the course simply does not stack up for me.  But one of the charms about golf is how it can be so many different things to different people.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Glad to finally see a little anger from some on this thread.


And Jeff, I know there is a different perception of value and scale of investment in the States... but £750k is a lot of money to spend on a links course. Unless they are doing some infrastructure work on irrigation or the like, then I think this renovation is wider spread than that press release suggests.


Tom: Almost always, this is choice and some imaginary keeping up with the Jones’s. My anger came a few years ago and I’ve managed to relax about it. Otherwise it would drive me crazy.


For those who think there may be a little hypocrisy as I too am doing some renovation work on links courses, I’ve covered that elsewhere. I’m sure Tom might bring up the same points if he were quizzed.

[Sean_A]

Ally

I am in your camp. I try to keep cool about stupid changes that drain club accounts without providing any benefits. Sometimes I lose it when real character is banged out of courses such as was the case with Burnham's 6th green. Now that the 14th is torn up I fear it too will be stripped of character. I spose GB&I links have been going through a steady homogenization process for over 100 years... in the name of fairness, more hole locations, championship golf and the latest, chasing rankings. It's all very disheartening.

Happy Hockey

[Thomas Dai]

To me, it seems like the UK especially has a "keeping up with the Rota" problem. All of the Open courses are "improving," so that same desire hits other less prominent clubs. Hiring M&E is seemingly a bulletproof decision as they have worked at so many top places. I would hazard a guess that no firm is better at marketing/networking with UK clubs. From looking at the Formby press release, in addition to getting your course fit to host top tournaments, they can also solve your future coastal erosion problem.

+1
I wonder if the amount £ quoted is all members money/loan or whether some/all has been provide by an organisation located on the east coast of Fife in relation to future events?
One addition to the proposed work that might go down quite well amongst certain folk would be the removal of the house behind the 18th tee which has 5 (now 6?) figures of a trophy with big ears along the roofline (sic!).
atb


PS - Glad that RND/WH! have decided not to change the wonderful 9th green.

[Sean_A]

To me, it seems like the UK especially has a "keeping up with the Rota" problem. All of the Open courses are "improving," so that same desire hits other less prominent clubs. Hiring M&E is seemingly a bulletproof decision as they have worked at so many top places. I would hazard a guess that no firm is better at marketing/networking with UK clubs. From looking at the Formby press release, in addition to getting your course fit to host top tournaments, they can also solve your future coastal erosion problem.

PS - Glad that RND/WH! have decided not to change the wonderful 9th green.

I thought the 9th green was always meant to stay?


Happy Hockey

[John Mayhugh]

Lou,
My complaint about their work at Westward Ho! is very specific. I can understand if the course was not to your tastes, but surely you could still appreciate the quality of the par 5 9th. Here's what their initial proposal had to say:
This hole could possibly remain a short par five which would suit the green, but the 7th becomes a par five, so on balance it is better to play as a par four to keep the par at 72 as it always has been.
So they decided that it was necessary to change one of the best holes on the course to ensure par stayed at 72. They might also have kept the 7th a par 4, but they didn't suit their other routing plans. 

Previously they also said that:
The green shape has to be adjusted so that it is suitable for a long par 4

It's good to read from some of the other comments on here that maybe they have backed off on plans to alter the green.


Jon,
Sean Arble's tour of Formby shows the 6th as I remember it. The blindness was an issue only if you wanted to carry the ball further and not worry about the bunkers. Certainly no requirement for a blind carry.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html
https://www.formbygolfclub.co.uk/hole/hole-6/
DSC05180 by john mayhugh, on Flickr

[Tim Gallant]

Glad to finally see a little anger from some on this thread.

Me too!


Just going to leave this here:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67394.0.html

[Thomas Dai]

I omitted to mention in my earlier post the considerable erosion issues along that stretch of coastline especially at Formby and the potential impact on the course and Club down the line.
Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

I omitted to mention in my earlier post the considerable erosion issues along that stretch of coastline especially at Formby and the potential impact on the course and Club down the line.
Atb

Thomas,


quite a few decades ago Formby abandoned several holes in dune land due to the fear of erosion which has still not happened. I wonder if these changes are more to do with having money in the bank account and it being too tempting not to spend it. I wonder when the pond and fountain on the last will appear 

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,
My complaint about their work at Westward Ho! is very specific. I can understand if the course was not to your tastes, but surely you could still appreciate the quality of the par 5 9th. Here's what their initial proposal had to say:
This hole could possibly remain a short par five which would suit the green, but the 7th becomes a par five, so on balance it is better to play as a par four to keep the par at 72 as it always has been.
So they decided that it was necessary to change one of the best holes on the course to ensure par stayed at 72. They might also have kept the 7th a par 4, but they didn't suit their other routing plans. 

Previously they also said that:
The green shape has to be adjusted so that it is suitable for a long par 4

I looked back at my records (9/13/2014) to refresh my memory.  If #9 is "one of the best holes on the course", it may speak more to the overall quality of the course than of the hole itself.  I found little to distinguish any of the par 5s which I went -2 for the four in a round of 81.  It appears that the work at RND is motivated primarily by the ongoing coastal erosion, and according to an internet report, the architect's proposal was approved unanimously.

As to sizing greens (most targets for that matter) for the shots required, I think it is fundamental.  Golf is a game of skill.  I have a near zero chance of hitting a long iron into a firm, shallow green complex and holding the shot.  Of course, if you want to argue that par doesn't matter, then, I suppose, neither does the size and shape of the green.

I do find it amusing that the little knob just short of the 11th green at Prairie Dunes is being praised in another current thread as architectural genius.  In effect, that feature is easy to manufacture if the intent is to frustrate the golfer.  Me, I prefer to play shots that if I successfully plan and execute will normally achieve satisfactory results.  (A sure-fire way of raising a maladjusted child is to randomly reward or punish the same behavior.)

Me, I trust the good folks at RND and elsewhere to make superior decisions on their own behalf.  If keeping up with the Joneses is a driver for deliberation, planning and constant improvement, I am all for it.  Nothing is in homeostasis- if you're not improving, you're declining.  My home course is a perfect example, having been frozen in time for the 17+ years of its existence.  It is now only a shell of its former self and deteriorating at an accelerated pace.  IMO, "If it ain't broken, don't fix it" mentality poses much greater danger (it is certainly a lazier approach) than an active, vigilant management style.  We (my home club) should be so lucky to have someone half as qualified as M & E come in to shake things up.

[jeffwarne]

Glad to finally see a little anger from some on this thread.


And Jeff, I know there is a different perception of value and scale of investment in the States... but £750k is a lot of money to spend on a links course. Unless they are doing some infrastructure work on irrigation or the like, then I think this renovation is wider spread than that press release suggests.

Understand I think the $ number spent at Merion was a HORRIFYING example of stewardship and insecurity, and was sarcastically implying that Formby needs 95% less work based on comparing figures.
I'm not going to knock an architect's work without the whole story (I have played Formby on several occasions from the full gamut of tees) but I usually start with a skeptical attitude when I hear of changes to a classic links.
Homogonization is real-in achitecture and club culture, which is why I prefer the links that simply can't afford homogonization in either.

[jeffwarne]

It amazes me how nearly every course in the UK is suddenly in need of routing changes etc.


Is this a function of inaction on equipment, or of choice?

There are of course a variety of factors that many here have voiced, and my position on equipment is well documented...
but I'd say the extended warm/hot, dry weather of the past 2 summers really has an impact.Take the effects of more higher speed players than ever, hot low spin equipment and all of that becomes exponential in hot/hard conditions -certainly far more often than it does in bad weather summers.
Many times I've played a hundred year old 480 yard par 5 in the UK driver, 3 wood and pitch when it's cold, wet and/or into the wind, but once few club officials hear extensive anecdotal tales about young Ian or Nick hitting sand wedge into par 5's and driving previously untuched par 4's, it begins to take its toll-rightly or wrongly.

[Mark Pearce]

It's a trend thing, too.  There are good reasons why Goswick is thinking about a re-routing around the clubhouse.  One of the reasons they are thinking of doing that that is NOT a good reason is the perception that if they don't make some changes they'll be "left behind".  I desperately hope that UK clubs aren't going to fall into some sort of arms race to "improve" themselves and end up making more changes in 20 years to put right mistakes.

[Jeff Schley]

It's a trend thing, too.  There are good reasons why Goswick is thinking about a re-routing around the clubhouse.  One of the reasons they are thinking of doing that that is NOT a good reason is the perception that if they don't make some changes they'll be "left behind".  I desperately hope that UK clubs aren't going to fall into some sort of arms race to "improve" themselves and end up making more changes in 20 years to put right mistakes.

Agreed.  Rerouting seems a pretty drastic measure.  If allowed, perhaps adding a tee box if available to add distance for the back tees that very few if any of us ever play, is fine.  Rerouting is destroying value that has been there for decades and over 100 years in many cases.  A total waste of capital that in the UK they may want to sock away for a Brexit day.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jeff - of course I knew that you are the last person to condone a lot of these links changes. But I needed an opportunity to say that £750k is quite a lot of money.


Yes, occasionally there are pressing erosion concerns or safety concerns that the club want addressed. And you can’t blame M&E for picking up the phone when clubs call.


And although the work is executed technically well, I’ve a sneaking suspicion that on many of these courses, the architects are maximising their opportunity to introduce change rather than convincing the club that less is more.


In addition to that, I’m seeing the same type of solutions being offered to every club. Put simply, it is an eighties style solution of containment mounding, tightening the landing area and championship golf... Just because it has been given a modern flair with natural edges bunkers and open waste areas does not make the concept different. I don’t like the homogenisation.


For what it’s worth, a few of the Tom MacKenzie led projects break this mould: Trevose - for one - has a bunker scheme that embraces a little bit of fun and diagonals and deception. He led the Cruden Bay and Dornoch re-routing work to add impact and wow, neither strictly necessary I guess but a completely understandable motive, even if getting rid of nicely contoured old classic greens is questionable (ditto 14 at Nairn and the proposition around 9 at RND). It also has to be noted that many of the courses Martin Ebert is working at are demanding of a “championship” solution for those few big professional events.


I’ll also add that there are usually certain small changes that make perfect sense at each course and as always, different opinions see different things.

[Thomas Dai]

I omitted to mention in my earlier post the considerable erosion issues along that stretch of coastline especially at Formby and the potential impact on the course and Club down the line.

Thomas,
quite a few decades ago Formby abandoned several holes in dune land due to the fear of erosion which has still not happened. I wonder if these changes are more to do with having money in the bank account and it being too tempting not to spend it. I wonder when the pond and fountain on the last will appear 

I know where your coming from Jon!


Erosion is a strange beast seemingly effected by happenings elsewhere, often quite a long way away. Erode from somewhere, deposit somewhere else. Dredge one harbour, silt up another. And then a few centuries later things change. We’ll see what happens at Formby.


As to comments above about the 9th etc at RND/WH!, a few GCA posters visited the club almost exactly 12 months ago and received updates from those there - see - [size=78%]http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66460.msg1592815.html#msg1592815[/size]


Atb