[David_Elvins]

Alister MacKenzie wrote that "The cardinal principle in golf architecture is to design a links that will be extremely testing for the expert and yet relatively simple for the dub."
 
Statistically this concept would be exemplified by a course having a high scratch rating and a low slope rating. 


Based on a review of rounds played Leongatha now has a scratch rating of 73 (3 over its par of 70) and a slope rating of 122. 


Are there any other courses in the world that can match Leongatha for a high scratch rating (3 over par) and a low slope rating (122)? Or does it stand alone as being statistically the world's best course?

[Jim Hoak]

I agree that that is a good model, and I don't know any course that does it as well.  Another way to put the concept is a bunch of hard par, easy bogey holes--a good ideal course.  I suspect it is done through a lack of hazards and out-of-bounds.

[Tim_Weiman]

David,


Can you share some details on  Leongatha? What allows it achieve the Mackenie ideal?

[Jason Topp]

I guess slope rating is a way of measuring but I would contend it is an extraordinarily poor method.  A long course with absolutely no hazards and no obstacles to make the game interesting would be considered ideal.   

[David_Tepper]

It never hurts to let those of us not in the know where a golf course is located.

http://leongathagolf.com.au/

Photo gallery:

http://leongathagolf.com.au/course-gallery/

[John Kavanaugh]

Why would I want to belong to a course where I’m a scratch golfer but can’t shoot par?  #handicapwrecker #goodbymemberguestinvites

[Jim Nugent]

Let me point out that, with the given CR and slope, Bogey Rating for Leongatha is 95.67.  Against a par of 70, that doesn't sound easy for bogey golfers.  Compared to par, it's almost 5 strokes harder for bogey than it is scratch players.  (Scratch is supposed to shoot around 3 over par; bogey is supposed to shoot nearly 8 over bogey.) 

I'm thinking how you could build a course that plays relatively easy for bogey compared to the expert.  Maybe a course with lots of heroic/risky carries, that tempt the scratch player to take unwise risks, but that bogey never even tries?  10 at Riviera might be one example, 16 at CPC another. 

Even then it seems to me scratch can take the same conservative route as bogey, and far outscore him.

Overall, I still believe the best way to make courses playable for both excellent golfers and average golfers is to build more par 3s on them, and less par 5s. 

[David_Elvins]

David,


Can you share some details on  Leongatha? What allows it achieve the Mackenie ideal?

Tim,


Good question.  It achieves this with some good and bad features I think.


Good - relatively short (6400 yards) small greens with significant contour on and around the greens but only 17 bunkers, wide playing corridors.


Bad - some significant doglegs and penal areas off the fairway that can overly inhibit good players taking driver.

[David_Elvins]

I guess slope rating is a way of measuring but I would contend it is an extraordinarily poor method.  A long course with absolutely no hazards and no obstacles to make the game interesting would be considered ideal.   

There are a lot of things wrong with slope but I am not sure what you hypothesize is right.  Course length is the biggest factor when calculating slope. The longer the course, the higher the slope. You can see how much of an influence it is by comparing different sets of tees on the same course.

[David_Elvins]

Let me point out that, with the given CR and slope, Bogey Rating for Leongatha is 95.67.  Against a par of 70, that doesn't sound easy for bogey golfers.  Compared to par, it's almost 5 strokes harder for bogey than it is scratch players.  (Scratch is supposed to shoot around 3 over par; bogey is supposed to shoot nearly 8 over bogey.).

Jim,  I don't think this is quite right.  The bogey rating does not relate to players with a handicap of 18, but to players with a stroke index between 17.5 and 22.5 (who drive the ball 200 yards).

[Jim Sherma]

I have come to the realization that I tend to like the high course rating/lower slope rating courses. Based on my experience This combo tends to promote recovery shots as opposed to penalty drops and/or re-loads. The challenge and difficulty tends to be based on approach shots and around the greens as opposed to water hazards and gunch.

[Garland Bayley]

Why would I want to belong to a course where I’m a scratch golfer but can’t shoot par?  #handicapwrecker #goodbymemberguestinvites

Because you love golf and par means diddly squat.

[Tom_Doak]

A lot of my courses have come out with very low slope ratings.  The factors that play into this include:


Rare out of bounds
Rare water hazards
Manageable roughs (no lost balls)
Wide fairways
Greens less surrounded by bunkers
Also, 'average' wind is hard to apply


In general, the slope ratings don't value short grass run-offs and contour as making a course tougher.  Of course it all depends on how they are used 😉


Adding:  as to the original post, Slope Ratings vary considerably from one jurisdiction to another - I believe they fudge the numbers a bit to get the relative difficulty of the courses correct, but comparing Slope ratings from Philly and Denver doesn't work well.  In theory it's the same math exercise but it's being done by two completely different sets of people.

[Jim Nugent]

Let me point out that, with the given CR and slope, Bogey Rating for Leongatha is 95.67.  Against a par of 70, that doesn't sound easy for bogey golfers.  Compared to par, it's almost 5 strokes harder for bogey than it is scratch players.  (Scratch is supposed to shoot around 3 over par; bogey is supposed to shoot nearly 8 over bogey.).

Jim,  I don't think this is quite right.  The bogey rating does not relate to players with a handicap of 18, but to players with a stroke index between 17.5 and 22.5 (who drive the ball 200 yards).

Here is how the USGA describes Bogey Rating:

"Bogey Rating is the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for the bogey golfer under normal course and weather conditions.   It is based on yardage, effective playing length and other obstacles to the extent that they affect the scoring ability of the bogey golfer. Bogey rating is equivalent to the better half average of a bogey golfer’s scores under normal playing conditions."

[John Kavanaugh]

Why would I want to belong to a course where I’m a scratch golfer but can’t shoot par?  #handicapwrecker #goodbymemberguestinvites

Because you love golf and par means diddly squat.

I play everyday in a money game where I give between 7 and 20 stokes. I can do that on a course rated 70 with a 124 slope. It simply would not be possible on a course rated 73 with a 120 slope. My handicap would be too low and the high handicappers wouldn’t change.

[David_Elvins]

Let me point out that, with the given CR and slope, Bogey Rating for Leongatha is 95.67.  Against a par of 70, that doesn't sound easy for bogey golfers.  Compared to par, it's almost 5 strokes harder for bogey than it is scratch players.  (Scratch is supposed to shoot around 3 over par; bogey is supposed to shoot nearly 8 over bogey.).

Jim,  I don't think this is quite right.  The bogey rating does not relate to players with a handicap of 18, but to players with a stroke index between 17.5 and 22.5 (who drive the ball 200 yards).

Here is how the USGA describes Bogey Rating:

"Bogey Rating is the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for the bogey golfer under normal course and weather conditions.   It is based on yardage, effective playing length and other obstacles to the extent that they affect the scoring ability of the bogey golfer. Bogey rating is equivalent to the better half average of a bogey golfer’s scores under normal playing conditions."

Sure, but a bogey golfer as defined by the usga is one with an index between 17.5 and 22.5 who hits the ball 200 yards.  Ie.  Ave Handicap approx 21, not 18 as you assumed earlier .  It's a moot point anyway.  This is about relativity and a course with a 122 slope is going to have a lower bogey rating than a course with a 135 slope and the question still remains valid as to whether you can find a course that is hard for the scratch golfer (or even close to as hard) and has a lower slope rating (or lower bogey rating, if you prefer that).

[Garland Bayley]

Why would I want to belong to a course where I’m a scratch golfer but can’t shoot par?  #handicapwrecker #goodbymemberguestinvites

Because you love golf and par means diddly squat.

I play everyday in a money game where I give between 7 and 20 stokes. I can do that on a course rated 70 with a 124 slope. It simply would not be possible on a course rated 73 with a 120 slope. My handicap would be too low and the high handicappers wouldn’t change.

[Jim Nugent]

Let me point out that, with the given CR and slope, Bogey Rating for Leongatha is 95.67.  Against a par of 70, that doesn't sound easy for bogey golfers.  Compared to par, it's almost 5 strokes harder for bogey than it is scratch players.  (Scratch is supposed to shoot around 3 over par; bogey is supposed to shoot nearly 8 over bogey.).

Jim,  I don't think this is quite right.  The bogey rating does not relate to players with a handicap of 18, but to players with a stroke index between 17.5 and 22.5 (who drive the ball 200 yards).

Here is how the USGA describes Bogey Rating:

"Bogey Rating is the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for the bogey golfer under normal course and weather conditions.   It is based on yardage, effective playing length and other obstacles to the extent that they affect the scoring ability of the bogey golfer. Bogey rating is equivalent to the better half average of a bogey golfer’s scores under normal playing conditions."

Sure, but a bogey golfer as defined by the usga is one with an index between 17.5 and 22.5 who hits the ball 200 yards.  Ie.  Ave Handicap approx 21, not 18 as you assumed earlier .  It's a moot point anyway.  This is about relativity and a course with a 122 slope is going to have a lower bogey rating than a course with a 135 slope and the question still remains valid as to whether you can find a course that is hard for the scratch golfer (or even close to as hard) and has a lower slope rating (or lower bogey rating, if you prefer that).

David, you're partly right, and I was partly wrong.  Bogey does not mean 18 handicap.  From what I read in Golf World, it means 20 handicap.  That lowers the differential I pointed out by two strokes, but it still stands.  Bogey golfers are expected to score nearly six strokes above their handicap at Leongatha, while scratch is expected to score three.  Harder for bogey IMO. 

For bogey golfers to be on even keel with scratch, slope must be 113.  That's true on any course.  For bogey to have a relative advantage, slope must be lower than 113.  Anything higher and according to slope the course is harder for average golfers. 

It's not true that a course with 122 slope must have a lower bogey rating than a course with 135 slope.  It depends on the course rating.  If the course rating with the 122 slope is more than 2.23 strokes higher than the course rating with the 135 slope, the bogey rating for the first course must be higher as well. 

In general, the course rating tells you a lot more about the difficulty of a course than slope does -- for all levels of golfers. 

I completely agree with your last point. 

[Sean_A]

I have no idea how stats, slope, rating etc pan out, but at the end of the day I think folks will find that England's classic heathland courses will do the job. 18 markers should not find it overly difficult to shoot their handicap and scratch players should have a good chance to score near the course rating. I don't think this means they are necessarily the best courses in the world, but they should provide a challenging, fun game in lovely surroundings. Each to his own if this meets the criteria for best course. Interestingly, Dr Mac's Alwoodley is among this class of classic heathland (come moorland) courses.

Happy Hockey

[Jason Topp]

I guess slope rating is a way of measuring but I would contend it is an extraordinarily poor method.  A long course with absolutely no hazards and no obstacles to make the game interesting would be considered ideal.   

There are a lot of things wrong with slope but I am not sure what you hypothesize is right.  Course length is the biggest factor when calculating slope. The longer the course, the higher the slope. You can see how much of an influence it is by comparing different sets of tees on the same course.

David - I agree but my hypothetical course would have the lowest possible slope for a particular length.  Because the original premise was that the course rating was high, I suggested a long course. 

[Jason Topp]

Adding:  as to the original post, Slope Ratings vary considerably from one jurisdiction to another - I believe they fudge the numbers a bit to get the relative difficulty of the courses correct, but comparing Slope ratings from Philly and Denver doesn't work well.  In theory it's the same math exercise but it's being done by two completely different sets of people.

I have the same impression.  In Florida, Arizona or California, , a course with a slope in the 130's from 6500 yards is almost certainly difficult.  In Minnesota, most courses have slopes in the 130's from that length. 

[Rick Lane]

Courses with water, as in Florida, seem to drive scoring much higher.  Many folks from our New England club, that is a par 71 rated as 73.3/138 from 6700, travel to Florida and play a course that is par 72, but rated 71.0/129 from appx the same distance.   If you happen to shoot 80 on both courses,  your Fla score would result in an index of 7.6, while your northern score would result in an index of 5.3.    The snowbirds leave for Fla with single digit handicaps and come back 3-5 strokes higher in the spring, only to win all the time as their handicaps come back down. 
I find the water to be the biggest difference, possibly along with wind.   If you push or pull your drive in Fla into the water, you just made a double or worse.   Up north, from the next fairway, you can still salvage a par or bogey.   Its a big difference.

[Kalen Braley]

High-cappers get so few GIRs as it is anyways...

I've always figured the best algorithm for this is:

- Few chances for lost balls
- Wide Fairways so high-cappers can at least get near the green in regulation
- Small, well guarded and undulating greens to give good players fits but still very doable for high cappers to save single bogey

[David_Elvins]

A lot of my courses have come out with very low slope ratings.  The factors that play into this include:


Rare out of bounds
Rare water hazards
Manageable roughs (no lost balls)
Wide fairways
Greens less surrounded by bunkers
Also, 'average' wind is hard to apply


In general, the slope ratings don't value short grass run-offs and contour as making a course tougher.  Of course it all depends on how they are used 😉

Tom,


I have always been intrigued as to how St Andrews beach has one of the highest bogey ratings in the state.  It always seemed to me to be a very friendly course to a player bunting it around to make bogeys.

[Tim Gavrich]

Closest thing I've seen here in the U.S. to the Rating/Slope figures of Leongatha is Stoatin Brae, which is 71.6/122 from the tips (6,700 yards, par 71).


Here's the thing, though: the front nine (par 36) is 36.9/115! Back is Rated under par (34.9) but the Slope is 129, and I assume that's due to some literal slope: the first six holes of the back nine are on choppy terrain that can snag higher-handicap golfers.


For its holes on the calmer parts of the site, Stoatin Brae might be the holy grail of high-R/low-S in the U.S.

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