[Greg Gilson]

The words in the Subject line are not mine....rather they come from feedback I received from golfers for whom I had recently arranged a short tour to Wales. They played P & K and Royal Porthcawl as well as Pennard & were generally unimpressed by all the courses…. I just chose this specific quote because it jumped out at me!


Personally I love the Welsh courses, in particular because of the relative roughness & reduced manicuring, the fun & quirk, the feeling of playing during an earlier time where conditioning was not such a prerequisite. My initial inclination was to respond as an experienced art critic may respond to me (an art philistine) when I question the quality of some of the masterpieces of the art world (viz … "you wouldn't know a work of art if it was staring you in the face").


The question I have for the DG is how do you respond to feedback such as this without sounding condescending? How do you pre-warn a potential visitor that the course you are recommending is ,according to "experts", a genuine hidden gem? How you describe the Pennards & Broras of the world without apologising for them or putting them down?


Interested in your thoughts. thanks.

[Mike Sweeney]

I think Ran did the work for you with Pennard at #104. Have them read it and discuss before the trip about other courses they have already played:


http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/


If that does not work, you can always go with:

[Sean_A]

I think if courses such as Pennard are oftened photographed with animals grazing the course then potential visitors should have a clue that they will not be getting a traditionally well groomed course.  I send people to Pennard etc, but with plenty of warning about the primitive conditions and expsosed nature of the sites.  I think one of the big problems with places such as Pennard is that all of the factors can add up to a negative experience.  It can be trying when a combo of wind, rain, keen conditions and not knowing where one is going hit.  Cow pats and rough lies could be the final straws and easily send the day south.  Oddly, places like this are the courses one may need to see twice to gain a decent understanding, but often times tours don't work this way.

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

You point to a decent review of the course, which tells all about its character. If someone can't be bothered to read an article, then it's obvious that he will play somewhat in the dark and that there could be surprises. So offer up comprehensive information before play and after play say: "It was all in my recommended review, did you you read it?"

Ulrich

[Tommy Williamsen]

You have to experience places like Pennard or even Royal North Devon a few times before you can appreciate them. They are acquired tastes for Americans who like "pristine" conditions. Some just never like them. It's ok not to like them. Everyone has their own idea of what makes a good course.

[Tom_Doak]

Pennard IS a cow paddock 🐄, one of the best in the world.  But I don't think it's an acquired taste.  Some people are going to love it, and others never will, because their idea of golf is a manicured environment.


In the story above, though, it wasn't the cows - they didn't like Porthcawl that much either.  They just didn't like links golf, period.

[Thomas Dai]

Pennard and others of it's ilk are marmite courses, some love them, some hate them. If you're recommending folks play one of them I'd suggest you ensure to advise them that they're in for an unusual experience and to expect more rural and rustic conditioning than they might be usually familiar with.
Interesting that they didn't think much of Royal Porthcawl. For a links course it's pretty much the opposite in terms of conditioning to Pennard.
Each to their own I suppose.
atb

[Mark Pearce]

They played P & K and Royal Porthcawl as well as Pennard & were generally unimpressed by all the courses….

As Tom points out, if they weren't impressed by Porthcawl, they aren't "getting" links golf, so expecting them to get Pennard is a stretch.

[Eric Smith]

[jeffwarne]

They played P & K and Royal Porthcawl as well as Pennard & were generally unimpressed by all the courses….

As Tom points out, if they weren't impressed by Porthcawl, they aren't "getting" links golf, so expecting them to get Pennard is a stretch.

This is not a problem,
Simply give them directions to Celtic Manor and they are pleased and can tell their friends they've "done Wales".
Pennard and the great links will remain uncluttered.


What amazes me is how we in the golf world(which in many cases is financially unsustainably struggling) have come to accept maonchromatic, weed free lush soft green wall to wall as "normal" and think of a bouncy,natural bumpy, rustic textured landscape as having to be explained or recommended with a caveat.
In an outdoor game....


With many players even places such as Cabot have to be explained and then met with blank stares, and we often don't help the case here with the over frequent and ever escalating talk of "fast", while firm becomes less achieveable due to worry of losing fast.

[Peter Pallotta]

J -

I think one reason, almost never acknowledged by golfers themselves, is that firm and natural and bouncy and bumpy is a lot harder to play off of than lush, soft, green and monochrome, especially for the average golfer who is not actually very good at the game -- or, more importantly, not nearly as good as he'd like to think he is.

(You know the type: by the third hole, after starting double-double, we're saying things like "I don't know what's going on today, yesterday I was hitting it pure, but now it's like something's off, I don't know....and this turf, this is lousy, I mean, how are you supposed to play off this...and then I finally hit a good drive, right in the middle, and what do I get: the ball's 3 inches below my feet and right in this patchy bit of crap".)

As I say: rare is the adult male who will say "I'm not good enough to play that course, especially if the wind is blowing".  It's much easier on the ego to say "That place is a cow paddock - that's not golf" instead.

Over the years, reading Sean A's many profiles of GB&I courses, it became clear to me that I've frequently hit the 'like' button on the quiet, gentle, fairly straight-ahead English inland courses, e.g. Sherwood Forest, much more often than I have on the raw/wild and twisting coastal courses of Ireland and Wales.

The truth is, even looking at those courses kind of scares me, i.e. with the blind/semi-blind shots I'm sure I wouldn't know *where* to hit it, and with the uneven and bumpy ground and the likely wind I'm pretty sure I wouldn't know *how* to hit it.

P

           

[Jason Topp]

Some golfers are not going to enjoy playing through dung.I think it makes sense to explain that some of the courses in these areas have cows and sheep grazing on them with the greens protected by fences. 

Conditioning standards are different than in the US.  Nonetheless, these are some of the most highly regarded courses in the world.


Let them decide whether they want that experience or not.  There are plenty of great courses elsewhere without grazing animals

[mike_malone]

It says more about them than the courses. While I loved Pennard and admired Southerndown  ( thank god they missed that one! ) my favorite was Porthcawl which I see as a genuine world class course just because of its par fours.
Best to ignore those comments since they won’t understand your rebuttal. 

[Ulrich Mayring]

That's not a solution. Apparently these guys paid for getting a golf trip into Wales organised and so they have the right to be informed about the golf courses being played. The question was how to put it to them without breaking any glass on either side.

Ulrich

[Tommy Williamsen]

We are a little slow and reluctant to acknowledge that folks may not like either links or even less manicured courses. Some guys like slow and soft. I think they’re nuts but some Norwegians don’t like lutefisk. Try convincing them about the great taste.


I took a friend to Westward Ho! one year. It took three rounds before he fell in love. Prior to to that trip he had neither played and only rarely seen a links course let alone a course that had horses and sheep.

[Thomas Dai]

To paraphrase what Jeff W has said a few times on here, it’s fine that some folks don’t like these type of courses ... means there’s more space for those of us who do!
Atb

[Jason Thurman]

Why would you worry about hurting a golf course's feelings? Set good expectations. If it's a cow paddock, it's a cow paddock. That's never stopped me from recommending Dannebrog, but it's not like I'm gonna pretend it's Quarry Oaks.

[archie_struthers]

 






Looks like great fun guys.....wish we could all knock it around with you there.  Comes back to a quest for "fairness" which shouldn't be near as important to the architect and superintendent as it has become. As I've gotten older this quest has seemed more and more a problem than a goal.


Sure its great to walk around Pine Valley and Augusta and see wonderful playing conditions every day. It's impressive and a credit to big budgets and talented superintendents. But I must admit the chance of getting a really bad lie in a bunker being diminished takes away some of the intrigue out of the round.


I'm all for more quirk, more blind tee shots and some blind second shots. In fact some great architecture only allows you a peek at the green on your approach if you challenge a bunker or a hazard to get an angle. Our thirst for perfection in conditioning can get way out of hand.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Regarding manicured vs more natural (for lack of a better phrase) maintenance:


To me, golf is a simulation of life.  In life, one gets bad bounces and bad lies...and part of the test off life is how one deals with them. (And btw...one also gets good bounces and good lies where one doesn't deserve them).


That leads me to conclude that golf with crazy bounces and lies is a better game and tests for facets of what should be tested.


Obviously that can be taken to the extreme, but that is not what one finds at places like Porthcawl and Brora


And for sure, tell them to go to Celtic Manor and be happy

[George Pazin]

We are a little slow and reluctant to acknowledge that folks may not like either links or even less manicured courses. Some guys like slow and soft. I think they’re nuts but some Norwegians don’t like lutefisk. Try convincing them about the great taste.


I took a friend to Westward Ho! one year. It took three rounds before he fell in love. Prior to to that trip he had neither played and only rarely seen a links course let alone a course that had horses and sheep.

This reminds me of an experience I had about twenty years ago. I was at a trade show in Orlando, my business partner and I were talking to a friendly Hawaiian woman about big game fishing. My partner said something about tilapia for dinner, and she said, oh my god, you guys EAT THAT? Apparently she considered it the sort of fish you use for bait to catch real fish.


And I can personally say that I can't tell the difference between most cheap liquors and expensive liquors, whether it's wine, or scotch, or gin, or whatever.


Golf course taste is personal, which is why I don't favor rankings. If someone asks me to recommend a course to them in an area, I ask them first what they like. I'm not trying to teach them about architecture, I'm trying to make them happy.


But then again, I'm not an architect or a critic, just a golfer.

[Garland Bayley]

Pennard and others of it's ilk are marmite courses, some love them, some hate them. If you're recommending folks play one of them I'd suggest you ensure to advise them that they're in for an unusual experience and to expect more rural and rustic conditioning than they might be usually familiar with.
Interesting that they didn't think much of Royal Porthcawl. For a links course it's pretty much the opposite in terms of conditioning to Pennard.
Each to their own I suppose.
atb

Perhaps they don't like wind. The decider could be if they were to play Chambers Bay. Very links like, but not windy.

I caddied yesterday for a player in an LPGA pro-am whose forte was approach shots. He probably hit half of them inside the LPGA pro (Szokol) enabling the scramble team to go -16. He won't go to Bandon because of the wind. The other team members were ladies so they had to hit longer clubs on approaches, and were not a factor there.

[MCirba]

J -

(You know the type: by the third hole, after starting double-double, we're saying things like "I don't know what's going on today, yesterday I was hitting it pure, but now it's like something's off, I don't know....and this turf, this is lousy, I mean, how are you supposed to play off this...and then I finally hit a good drive, right in the middle, and what do I get: the ball's 3 inches below my feet and right in this patchy bit of crap".)

         

Usually followed by, "I'm really not this bad!", despite the preponderance of evidence.

[Sean_A]

7

J -

(You know the type: by the third hole, after starting double-double, we're saying things like "I don't know what's going on today, yesterday I was hitting it pure, but now it's like something's off, I don't know....and this turf, this is lousy, I mean, how are you supposed to play off this...and then I finally hit a good drive, right in the middle, and what do I get: the ball's 3 inches below my feet and right in this patchy bit of crap".)

Usually followed by, "I'm really not this bad!", despite the preponderance of evidence.

As if anyone cares how bad a fellow golfer is.. Half the fun of these funky courses is down to how foolish they make us look and seem because there will that moment when we pull off the mad shot required.

Greatness is over - rated and people take the game too seriously.

Ciao

[MCirba]

Sean,


With all due respect, the point I was trying to make and probably Peter too is simply THAT guy is likely so wrapped up in his score, his ego, and the slow, methodical, sleep-inducing way he plays the game from watching golf on TV that he'd never get, much less admit to your Greatness is Overrated philosophy.


He also likely has iron covers and doesn't even start the process of putting on the glove he removes on each and every shot until everyone else has started walking.

[Bernie Bell]

Some will complain of livestock on the course, others will complain of green-to-tee transitions or trees or mowing lines or Art Hills.  It’s a big game and there are lots of ways to go about it.  Doesn’t George have the right answer to the original question?  Find out what they like and use your superior knowledge to make them happy, not to blow them off as beneath you.

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