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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2019, 04:10:08 PM »
At St Andrews we weren’t allowed to use watches or rangefinders, just the course planner and sprinklers. It shouldn’t slow play if the caddies are switched on and planning before you get to the ball. I’d always say golfers should speak to the caddiemaster if they get a poor or lazy caddie.


Those of us who have spent most of our working and married lives explaining to people what they are doing wrong find it tedious during recreational activities. I like to overtip poor service because it will lead to more bad behavior and the eventual ruination of all those associated.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2019, 04:47:09 PM »
At St Andrews we weren’t allowed to use watches or rangefinders, just the course planner and sprinklers. It shouldn’t slow play if the caddies are switched on and planning before you get to the ball. I’d always say golfers should speak to the caddiemaster if they get a poor or lazy caddie.


Those of us who have spent most of our working and married lives explaining to people what they are doing wrong find it tedious during recreational activities. I like to overtip poor service because it will lead to more bad behavior and the eventual ruination of all those associated.


I’ve spent most of my married life having it explained to me what I’m doing wrong.
F.
PS Please don’t ever let Nancy see this.
 :o
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2019, 05:27:16 PM »
At St Andrews we weren’t allowed to use watches or rangefinders, just the course planner and sprinklers. It shouldn’t slow play if the caddies are switched on and planning before you get to the ball. I’d always say golfers should speak to the caddiemaster if they get a poor or lazy caddie.


Those of us who have spent most of our working and married lives explaining to people what they are doing wrong find it tedious during recreational activities. I like to overtip poor service because it will lead to more bad behavior and the eventual ruination of all those associated.


I’ve spent most of my married life having it explained to me what I’m doing wrong.
F.
PS Please don’t ever let Nancy see this.
 :o


Marty,


I love my wife dearly, not the least of which because she loves golf.  For 31 years though she has had a list of things that I could do better. When I point out how many should be crossed off the list because I changed my ways, she just adds some more.


Go Bears!


Ira


PS I have never had a bad Caddie experience, but Congressional and CPC are the only privates in US since I was a kid. My wife had a challenge in the UK, but he was 85 years old so hard to quibble.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2019, 06:46:31 PM »
Not coincidentally...

Being a good husband is similar to the 3 basic rules of caddying.  Show up, Keep up, and Shut up.  You do that, and the wife will keep you around more often that not!

P.S.  Ira I stopped whittling away on that list years ago when I realized same....gotta quit while you're behind.  ;)

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2019, 07:31:56 PM »
Not coincidentally...

Being a good husband is similar to the 3 basic rules of caddying.  Show up, Keep up, and Shut up.  You do that, and the wife will keep you around more often that not!

P.S.  Ira I stopped whittling away on that list years ago when I realized same....gotta quit while you're behind.  ;)


Kalen,


I am quite good with the Show Up and Keep Up rules. Many of our disagreements are my violation of the Shut Up rule, especially around her friends. But it has been a terrific 31 years. And many great laughs in Ireland and Scotland with Caddies both on the course and after for a meal. Plus four wonderful days with Sven at Bandon.


We are blessed to have mostly first world problems.


Ira

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2019, 04:57:39 AM »
A few weeks ago I asked a caddy how often he gets bags at North Berwick. He said there aren't enough caddies to meet demand, but he still only goes out 3-4 times a week. When asked why he said it gets boring giving obvious advice. It is difficult to stay interested. He gets more joy from his job when players get on with it and just let him interject when he thinks it will be beneficial.

Later that day we walked off the course because a 2ball with a caddy was holding up play. As we walked past the 2ball it was clear there was far too much discussion between caddy and players.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 05:00:42 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2019, 05:54:02 AM »
 ::) ::)


At the rates caddies generally receive these days the minimal requirement for employment should be a working knowledge of the course strategy and certainly a complete understanding of the distances. Green reading for others is more of an art and I would suggest knowing the speeds of the greens is key. 



Back in the day when you were learning the rate was different than an experienced looper, the consumer had the choice to save and suffer a little, or better yet teach the young kids. In Tim's case the caddy master should get the word that the service was less than perfect, and hopefully it will help the next guy
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 06:46:53 AM by archie_struthers »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2019, 06:59:44 AM »
I married a girl who was a cashier at the local grocery store for a short bit. Remember back in the day when they were all high school girls with big brown eyes. Then much like caddies adults starting to do the entry level jobs where kids would learn the responsibilities of employment. Then like caddies wages grew to support the adults where now Walmart is looking to pay $15 an hour. Then the human cashiers were replaced by robotic scanners that don't come along with all the trappings of human employees. How much longer can caddies really have?

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2019, 07:28:46 AM »
I married a girl who was a cashier at the local grocery store for a short bit. Remember back in the day when they were all high school girls with big brown eyes. Then much like caddies adults starting to do the entry level jobs where kids would learn the responsibilities of employment. Then like caddies wages grew to support the adults where now Walmart is looking to pay $15 an hour. Then the human cashiers were replaced by robotic scanners that don't come along with all the trappings of human employees. How much longer can caddies really have?
They are still around today despite the advent of the golf cart in the 50's/60's, so I think they have survived the biggest disruptive innovation.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2019, 07:39:39 AM »
They survive in the US almost entirely where they’re mandated and not because they’re wanted. 

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2019, 08:22:21 AM »
I'm not quite certain why caddies get so much ink on this site. Every few months a thread comes up.  like a caddie and will take one periodically. I belonged to a club in DC that required a caddie on weekend mornings. After about five years that changed because it limited the number of new members. No one wants to be told they must either have a caddie or a cart. Sometimes I will take a caddie when I am playing a new course with my wife. I want the caddie to help her as much as possible so she can enjoy the round better.e helps with all kinds of things including yaradge and green reading. We had friends at Hidden Creek a month ago and had a forecaddie who was just great. It added to our friend's enjoyment.


Every once in a while I will get a caddie that detracts from the enjoyment. I had a caddie at a NY club some years ago who showed up drunk and belligerent. If it had been at my club I would have sent him packing, but I was a guest and did not want to upset my host.


I like a caddie with whom I can have some fun banter. The caddies at Pine Valley are famous for their repartee. Years ago I took a caddie named Ashley at Pinehurst. I wanted to break 80 on number two. I shot 82 and 81 my first two times out. The third hole was a drivable par four. I told Ashely to give me a driver. He handed me the four wood (and it was wooden). I said, "Ashely, I want the driver." He told me that he will get me under 80 but I need to trust him. He got me around in 77. He must have been about 70 years old and caddied for us for four days, 36 a day. He walked down the center of the fairway regardless of where we hit it. He wasn't going to expend too much energy. We teased him about it and he made our four days some of the most enjoyable time I had on our trip. My buddy had never taken a caddie before and was apprehensive. By the end of the trip he was a believer in the grand tradition of caddie and player.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2019, 08:37:30 AM »



I have heard some caddies at some clubs even run a fantasy football scheme making their worth on the grounds even more paramount for all the members.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2019, 11:33:18 AM »
At the end of the day, I have a fair bit of sympathy for caddies...

Lugging a golf bag all over kingdom come for 4.5 hours trying to please thier player when in reality, they probably better served by a shrink...but good luck finding one at $100/round.  And heaven forbid they get paired up with "that" guy who either won't stop jawing, wants to take a million pics, or cursing and slamming clubs every other shot.

Its a mostly thank-less job where being a mind-reader, johnny on the spot, and engaged the whole time is almost an expectation.

Hence lower the rates, so its essentially a bag carrying service and everything else is extra and give a nice tip at the end if applicable...

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2019, 12:00:29 PM »
My post was not aimed at Tim.  Just a general comment to the ‘purists’ including those who abhor carts. I get it that carts diminish the ambience. But if you want to play golf, as it is meant to be, is it consistent to use a GPS device?

How about this case:
Suppose you are blind in one eye and have no depth perception?
Will using a rangefinder to get distance be impure in that case?
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2019, 12:02:00 PM »
I’ve never had a horrible experience with a caddie but I’ve had a couple of great ones at Pebble and Spyglass.  If I’ve played the course once I would prefer to play without one. With the choice of playing a great course in a cart or walking with a caddie I’m going with the caddie. I used to travel with a staff bag for extra protection for my clubs. It was a huge pain to empty my bag and put everything in a carry bag for the caddie at the Ocean course. Never dawned on me they wouldn’t carry a staff bag.


I’ve got a friend who is a good player, retired and is a caddie at Oak Hill in the summer and then in Florida in the winter. He loves it. Loves meeting new people.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2019, 12:17:30 PM »

I have heard some caddies at some clubs even run a fantasy football scheme making their worth on the grounds even more paramount for all the members.


Lol, when you say " even run a fantasy football scheme" you sound like a naive spinster walking into a sports book, "do I win if Barry Bonds kicks the free throw into the goal?"


But (sigh) you're right... $6250 in fantasy football teams placed into my charge, with a possible payoff of about $55,000 if the best happens...but last year was $24K, so there is room to grow.


As is every year, I cannot walk a step these days in August without someone polling me on (thsi season) Melvin Gordon's true holdout replacement or who will get the looks with Sheppard mending and Tate suspending or if I will be taking any surprise rookie WRs...
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2019, 12:22:28 PM »
I used to travel with a staff bag for extra protection for my clubs. It was a huge pain to empty my bag and put everything in a carry bag for the caddie at the Ocean course. Never dawned on me they wouldn’t carry a staff bag.

No non-professional player caddy should have to carry a staff bag unless they volunteer and get double pay  8)  I know caddies drool when they see my bag, unfortunately for them, my bag is super light because I lug it!  That said, I would be far more amenable to hiring a bag carrier kid for £30 than an adult for £100.  Sometimes, the caddy fee is more than the green fee!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2019, 03:54:57 PM »
I used to travel with a staff bag for extra protection for my clubs. It was a huge pain to empty my bag and put everything in a carry bag for the caddie at the Ocean course. Never dawned on me they wouldn’t carry a staff bag.
I played the Straits Course at Whistling Straits this summer and the caddy emptied my MacKenzie style carry bag and put everything into their stand carry bag. The caddy said they don’t like one strap bags without a stand... even if they are a bit lighter. They want the stand above all else.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2019, 07:53:56 PM »
I married a girl who was a cashier at the local grocery store for a short bit. Remember back in the day when they were all high school girls with big brown eyes. Then much like caddies adults starting to do the entry level jobs where kids would learn the responsibilities of employment. Then like caddies wages grew to support the adults where now Walmart is looking to pay $15 an hour. Then the human cashiers were replaced by robotic scanners that don't come along with all the trappings of human employees. How much longer can caddies really have?
They are still around today despite the advent of the golf cart in the 50's/60's, so I think they have survived the biggest disruptive innovation.


I’m referring to the remote control motorized trolleys. That and a rangefinder is very much a robotic caddie.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2019, 09:03:00 PM »
I married a girl who was a cashier at the local grocery store for a short bit. Remember back in the day when they were all high school girls with big brown eyes. Then much like caddies adults starting to do the entry level jobs where kids would learn the responsibilities of employment. Then like caddies wages grew to support the adults where now Walmart is looking to pay $15 an hour. Then the human cashiers were replaced by robotic scanners that don't come along with all the trappings of human employees. How much longer can caddies really have?


... longer than you and everyone else on this board, m 'lord.


"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2019, 09:21:10 PM »
.


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2019, 03:45:07 AM »

I’m referring to the remote control motorized trolleys. That and a rangefinder is very much a robotic caddie.


Motorised trolleys and rangefinders have effectively killed off caddies in the UK. They'd been a dying breed since the 1970s anyway.


Caddies now pretty well exist only at top name courses to indulge American and Japanese tourists.


There are probably one or two retired colonels in Surrey who still insist on a caddy, but that is about it. Those kind of guys only ever wanted a bag carrier anyway - any kind of interaction or intervention would have been most unwelcome.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 03:50:31 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2019, 06:55:40 AM »
I don't like the idea of caddies but nevertheless a couple of weeks ago I found myself playing TOC with a caddy. I won't bore you with how it came about but anyway he was a nice enough guy and didn't interfere with the group dynamic too much.


However I made the mistake of not explaining to him at the start that all that was required was a bag carrier. Instead I not only got yardages (if I was lucky), but more often a "yardage" taking into account the wind. He also told me what line to take, what club to play, how to play etc.


Now I appreciate that some of you probably think that is all a good thing but I'm from the school of golf that thinks that a very big part of the game is working all that out for yourself. Furthermore the caddie has no idea about my game, strong points/weak points, favourite clubs etc. Nor does the caddie know my propensity for taking a gamble or playing safe. Hence when he suggested hitting left of the corner of the dyke at 17, I paid no attention to his advice and had the great satisfaction in going for the tiger line and reaching the fairway.


And if you will allow me one more gripe - he didn't look to tend the flagstick when we were on the green.


Niall 

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2019, 12:32:23 PM »
They survive in the US almost entirely where they’re mandated and not because they’re wanted.


I suspect that this is mostly true as there probably aren't enough members at each club with a strong caddie tradition which would support a viable program without the requirement.  With the exception of one club which wouldn't have me as a member anyways, I would never consider a course which requires caddies or riding carts.  But if hiring a caddie is your thing, all the more power to you.


"When in Rome", as another poster noted, is key.  I recently had a miscommunication with the pro shop at a course and had an "optional" caddie waiting for me in the afternoon.  His chances of getting another bag were 50/50 at best so off we went.  Nice young guy, marginally helpful beyond carrying my clubs, and $120 later, he seemed happy and I didn't miss a meal.


Unlike Michael, I once had a caddie at Spanish Bay who insisted on switching things out of my SwiftX into his single-strap bag and somehow my Samsung 2-generation old phone never made it when he switched things back.  The caddie said I must have left it at the Inn or in the car- impossible since I had to take a call in the pro shop while taking care of fees and then went directly to my bag and the caddie.  A resort-wide search for the missing phone over three days went for naught.  Not a good thing losing your smartphone, even for a Ludite like me.  Lesson: refuse to switch bags or supervise the process closely.


Unlike others, I've had only a handful of caddies in my many years of playing golf who I thought were excellent in their work.  Most recently I had a caddie who never once offered to clean my ball and didn't make any effort to help the other players and their caddie look for lost balls.  Total fees for his services came to just under $150 and he seemed annoyed that I asked him to carry my clubs an extra 50 yards to my car instead of leaving them at the bag drop.


The best caddie I ever had was also on the Monterey Peninsula.  He was in his early 40s, an excellent player and an obvious student of human behavior.  He was great in every aspect of his profession, providing just the right amount of information, positive without being overly-solicitous and verbose.


His manner and way of communicating demonstrated abilities considerably greater than those required for his work, so I asked him how he came to caddying and how long had he been doing it.  He replied that he went to college for a year or so and thought he would try something different for a while and make some money before continuing his education.  Time crept up on him and more than 20 years later, he still liked working outside, the money was great, and he got to play golf all over the peninsula including CPC, PB, MPCC, etc.  He did say that things might have to change as he was becoming pretty serious with a girl who might want a different lifestyle.  All of us liked him so much that we tried to hire him for the rest of the trip.  He gave us his card, but he was booked through our time there.


Lee Trevino said that the reason there are so few minority players in professional golf today in comparison to when he was on the Tour is the decline of caddie programs.  And though he didn't go into it, economics have a lot to do with it.  At many clubs with mandatory caddie policies, the prices are set so that the opportunity costs make carrying bags attractive.  I suspect that the percentage of golfers willing to pay $50 for someone to carry a bag is multiples of that at $100-$150.  In the absence of kids making $30/bag plus tip for five hours, we have adults of all ages hoping to earn $100-$200 each day, most of it in cash and untaxable.  If golf was indeed a "free market", I think that Bernie is right.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2019, 07:00:57 PM »


They survive in the US almost entirely where they’re mandated and not because they’re wanted. 

Well, great...I guess similarly without provenance I can say the converse and be just as accurate?  "They're mandated because they're wanted more than not wanted."


But wait I do have provenance! I've been involved in private clubs for 38 years inside and out.  The reason they are mandated (for the 1000th time) is that a constantly-evolving contingent...of the club players at any particular club wish them to be available for their use ...but not all of those play everyday nor do they have a particularly busy course (15,000) rounds that could keep the caddies they like at their relatively small operation...just down the road, there are other clubs, busier clubs, clubs that pay more, clubs with two courses, clubs with big caddie programs (young and old)... and all of them with many, many people who are doing well... who aren't minding their green-eye shade for the dollar-cost-averaging of the round... who like the camaraderie and character of their club, which includes its particular caddies... all of which dawns on that contingent at a particular club that wishes to keep their caddies and supports their mandated use.


Lee Trevino said that the reason there are so few minority players in professional golf today in comparison to when he was on the Tour is the decline of caddie programs. 


I love Lee, but if he's being accurately paraphrased here, he knoweth not what he say... in his time, I count Sifford, Brown, Elder, Dent, Peete and Thorpe as the true African-American contingent, followed by short stints by a dozen other guys, all of whom were riding the waves and tides of civil rights participation that were important in the nation's mind for two decades (1955-75)... the Tour's own discriminatory by laws didn't end until just before Lee's time (1961) and it wasn't  until 1974 (?) that Elder could hit the moving target of the Masters.  and if minorities are extended to include all non-whites then minority representation (and achievement) are higher now than in Lee's time...as it should be.  Still haven't seen a lot of minority assistant pros giving lessons at the range and only a few more playing on TV then or now.

But why would the decline (or rise, or neutral growth) of "caddie programs" have any palpable influence on either competitive playing OR club professionals?  What did right or wrong or adult or teenage caddies or caddie rates or traditions or mandated caddies or carts or anything have ANYTHING to do with that?

I sometimes think it's because of some 20th century barrier that's not being passed...that has this romanticized notion of the Nelson and Hogan and Trevino making it from the caddie yard to the US Open, that shit is done...99% of today's competitive pros come from the privilege (either money or parent pro staff) that allows permits/enormous practice and offers competitive tournaments to build what is essentially a professional game by the time one is 16 or 17 years old. No one is coming from the caddie yard anymore... there are some kids who a great players who come to caddie for a season or two, but it's a cameo; they are not caddies, they want to play on Mondays, on late afternoons and be exposed to great courses.   


And though he didn't go into it, economics have a lot to do with it.  With what? You cant just go on to the conclusion of a non sequitur...that's what non-sequitur means...no sequence... caddie programs have nothing to do with pro golf, minorities in pro golf or anything...clear?

At many clubs with mandatory caddie policies, the prices are set so that the opportunity costs make carrying bags attractive. Not as attractive as whatever they're doing to pay it...whether it was $18 in 1983 or $50 in 1993 or $75 in 2003 or $100 in 2013 or $125+ today..not as attractive as a regularly waged job with health and retirement benefits... not as attractive as a job whose income I can take to a bank/lender and wont have them laugh at you...

I suspect that the percentage of golfers willing to pay $50 for someone to carry a bag is multiples of that at $100-$150.
In the absence of kids making $30/bag plus tip for five hours (so $8 - 10 an hour??...what frickin' planet are you living on? not only do "kids" require twice more than that, but "kids" play sports... "kids" go on family vacation... "kids" get into mischief... "kids" don;t show up when they are supposed to...

we have adults of all ages hoping to earn $100-$200 each day, most of it in cash and untaxable (as is the greater and greater preponderance of disastrous wealth gap in this country) If golf was indeed a "free market", I think that Bernie is right. Hold that thought..go into the cryogenic chamber,,,vote next November
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

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