[Kalen Braley]

Prarie Golf?

[Tom_Doak]

Riffing on my other thread:  Is Landmand Golf Club too hilly to be a great course?  /s

[Kalen Braley]

Riffing on my other thread:  Is Landmand Golf Club too hilly to be a great course?  /s

Of course not, those are just gently rolling hills! 

[V_Halyard]

Riffing on my other thread:  Is Landmand Golf Club too hilly to be a great course?  /s

Ha, the Pasa thread? No and neither is Pasa but I guess we'll see in the Summer.!
Played Pasa after walking/carrying the Lake Chabot Muny in Berkley so Pasa was a like a velvet roped skating rink in comparison.  Lol

[Kalen Braley]

Riffing on my other thread:  Is Landmand Golf Club too hilly to be a great course?  /s

Ha, the Pasa thread? No and neither is Pasa but I guess we'll see in the Summer.!
Played Pasa after walking/carrying the Chabot Lakes Muny in Berkley so Pasa was a like a velvet roped skating rink in comparison.  Lol

Vhal,


Interesting you mention Lake Chabot.  I played it several times before leaving California, and always walked and carried, but I was much younger then.  As a side benefit, if you played it anytime in the wet months, it had such poor drainage it wasn't worth taking a cart out of fear of getting stuck...possibly several times...

[V_Halyard]

Riffing on my other thread:  Is Landmand Golf Club too hilly to be a great course?  /s

Ha, the Pasa thread? No and neither is Pasa but I guess we'll see in the Summer.!
Played Pasa after walking/carrying the Chabot Lakes Muny in Berkley so Pasa was a like a velvet roped skating rink in comparison.  Lol

Vhal,


Interesting you mention Lake Chabot.  I played it several times before leaving California, and always walked and carried, but I was much younger then.  As a side benefit, if you played it anytime in the wet months, it had such poor drainage it wasn't worth taking a cart out of fear of getting stuck...possibly several times...

Lake Chabot!  We had the best time. The pace of play was... deliberate. We were walking and knew we would eventually join the group in front of us, 3 guys in two carts. They knew it too. It all crashed to a halt at a hilltop par 3.

The group in front of us sent one cart on a beer run and when they came back, they also had beers for us, a twosome walking behind them, whom they hadn’t met previously, but assumed correctly that we might want a couple beers when we got there.
THAT is excellent golf culture.  Guest Beers, residential rooster coops abutting the tee boxes, sundown views and an eagle 4 on the par 6 home hole, it was a Class A day!

[Kalen Braley]

Awesome stuff Vaughn, that brings back a few memories of some characters I've met there as well.  I'm guessing you were stuck on the famous drop shot 9?  Where its so far down you can't even see the green from the tee. Only par 3 where i've hit wedge from 170+ yards..     Most of the time I usually got out early so didn't have to deal with much afternoon grinding. Overall, the place would really be terrific gem with some TLC, but its so quirky it'd almost be a shame to change anything about it.

Nice eagle on 18, the steep downhill and back uphill slope on the last half of that hole always got me, I don't recall even making par there.


P.S.  I'm not sure if the short 9 hole course is still there, but its gotta be in the running for one of the coolest short courses you will ever play.  A few times I'd go there just to go round 2-3 times...

[V_Halyard]

Awesome stuff Vaughn, that brings back a few memories of some characters I've met there as well.  I'm guessing you were stuck on the famous drop shot 9?  Where its so far down you can't even see the green from the tee. Only par 3 where i've hit wedge from 170+ yards..     Most of the time I usually got out early so didn't have to deal with much afternoon grinding. Overall, the place would really be terrific gem with some TLC, but its so quirky it'd almost be a shame to change anything about it.

Nice eagle on 18, the steep downhill and back uphill slope on the last half of that hole always got me, I don't recall even making par there.


P.S.  I'm not sure if the short 9 hole course is still there, but its gotta be in the running for one of the coolest short courses you will ever play.  A few times I'd go there just to go round 2-3 times...

Ha, no that hole was epic though! I think it was 12, after crossing the street playing back up the hill. Two holes before the chicken coops, where we had to time the tee shots between cackles.

[Tim Gallant]

King-Collins have posted a really cool thread on Twitter on the first eight holes of the course:


https://twitter.com/KingCollinsGolf/status/1458828830030901252


Of all the holes, I want a piece of that 300yd 7th - that green looks like a blast!


Excited to see its progress from here. Think I've heard preview play next Autumn.

[John Mayhugh]

All the holes are up now. It looks like one wild ride. Definitely hope to see it next year.

[BCrosby]

I've played two of Collins' courses. Sweetens Cove a couple of times. Inness in Accord, NY, also twice. Rob takes gca to the edge. It is gca on acid. Terrific stuff. 


Collins's designs bring to mind Colt's and MacK's more radical holes, almost all of which have since been domesticated. I look forward to seeing Landmand and his other new courses.


Bob

[V_Halyard]

Rob Collins is absolutely the Timothy Leary of present day GCA. He is not alone asTad King is the team’s Dr. Stangelove. Yes that is a cross-context media reference but frighteningly appropriate to their partnership. They are a metaphor of golf design extremity. Landmand is an outpouring of god-knows-what that manifests as a big assed piece of really fun golf, a blast to play. Nothing like it so don’t ask “is it like… how does it compare to...”.

Prior to play, you should prep to enter an altered-state of playing golf. It is long but walkable. The rises are more gradual than they appear and the walks from green to tee are old school and adjacent. But you can still assume there will be quite a bit of cart riding. It can also be windy. Really windy. Windy as hell when it blows, but the scale surprisingly accommodates with substantial landing areas and absurdly large greens. Anticipate putting speed to be appropriately matched to wind velocity. 




We made a post Mashie visit to Landmand. I recruited our own GCA Spokesmodels Pam “The Ghost” Allen and Jay “Micklestix” Mickle in an attempt give some visual scale to the walk home. They will attest to the enjoyable playability from a variety of tee boxes. This is the walk up 18 to the lodge.

The next photo shows the combo green where the left side practice putting green is attached to the 18th Green on the right. I posted this elsewhere but zoom in and play “Where’s Waldo” for Pam and Jay.



I have more imagery and film. That will sit tight while Andy the Fried Egg man and I wrap our Landmand Film project. The scale associated with this project is insane… it will be polarizing, but so are Rob and Tad.

[Jesse Kodadek]

Wow.

It is clear where the Tourist Sauce is concerned that punches are pulled, but at least the boys let you know up front who's paying.

Just curious if you've seen the newest Tourist Sauce (at The Loop) and still feel that way, with some pretty darn negative views about it openly expressed in the video (I didn't listen, but I understand the podcast was severely negative)?

[Michael Chadwick]

Rob Collins is absolutely the Timothy Leary of present day GCA. He is not alone asTad King is the team’s Dr. Stangelove.

The scale associated with this project is insane… it will be polarizing, but so are Rob and Tad.

I for one appreciate these comparisons, Vaughn!


This is pure navel gazing, and half baked, but I wonder if Landmand might become emblematic of a new kind of maximalist golf course architecture. Raynor was maximalist, Dye was maximalist, any number of Fazio and Nicklaus designs as well, yet this kind of project feels different. How though? What might make Landmand different from Whistling Straits? The phrase that comes to me is "Natural Maximalism," quite literally an oxymoron, but what King-Collins are up to seems to embody that paradox wholeheartedly. They're clearly students of the past, even referencing the Sitwell green at this location, yet are unafraid to pursue as much scale as possible in a way that--might?--won't feel outright artificial. 


Although as soon as I write this I also think of Mammoth Dunes. Perhaps even Rawls?


This ain't Sand Hills, that's for sure, but I'm trying to wrap my head around King-Collins seem to be taking influence from both golden age architecture and certain elements of what people have referred to as the "dark ages" of course building. 

[Kalen Braley]

I don't have an issue with maximalism per se when it produces this type of result, which so far looks plenty interesting....

I am curious thou what the budget differences are to create this compared to something like Sand Hills or Ballyneal.

[Tim Gallant]

The below photo was taken by Ian Gilley of @sugarloafSocial





It's a great birdseye view to see how the course is routed through, in and around the valleys and hilltops.


John mentioned that they've now posted photos of every hole - the 11th green in particular speaks to me.

[MCirba]

Not sure the term "maximalism" really applies. 


It looks as simple as being presented with a humungous palette in terms of breadth and height and then minimally applying man's hand for golf playability.


Maximalism to me would be armies of dozers shaving down the high points and building up the low points as well as building artificial green sites and "features" rather than mostly finding and utilizing natural ones.

[Tim Gallant]

Not sure the term "maximalism" really applies. 


It looks as simple as being presented with a humungous palette in terms of breadth and height and then minimally applying man's hand for golf playability.


Maximalism to me would be armies of dozers shaving down the high points and building up the low points as well as building green sites rather than mostly finding them.

I'd probably agree - I think only the scale of features are dialled up to 10, but fundamentally, the holes still fit the lay of the land (for example, the 7th green flows along with the land, it doesn't fight).


I also don't know if I'd necessarily say there are many elements of the Dark Ages. I think at the very heart of King-Collins designs is fun, which is opposite to what proceeded this new golden age. That said, I take Michael's point that there are a lot of features that are probably manmade.

[Michael Chadwick]

Not sure the term "maximalism" really applies. 


It looks as simple as being presented with a humungous palette in terms of breadth and height and then minimally applying man's hand for golf playability.


Maximalism to me would be armies of dozers shaving down the high points and building up the low points as well as building green sites rather than mostly finding them.

I'd probably agree - I think only the scale of features are dialled up to 10, but fundamentally, the holes still fit the lay of the land (for example, the 7th green flows along with the land, it doesn't fight).


I also don't know if I'd necessarily say there are many elements of the Dark Ages. I think at the very heart of King-Collins designs is fun, which is opposite to what proceeded this new golden age. That said, I take Michael's point that there are a lot of features that are probably manmade.

Great responses you both, thank you. I still think maximalist is an appropriate term, since it refers to an aesthetics of excess, which need not equate to the number of bulldozers or cubic ft of earth moved. But your two points really help hone the distinction I was vaguely groping. Maybe what we're talking about is a golf course where the features and scale appear excessive, but are, surprisingly, predominantly lay of land.     

[Jay Mickle]

Very fortunate to have been able to join Vaughn and Pam for this early look at what will surely be the most talked about course of 2022. The Tobacco Road of the MidWest. With distant views to far away holes, huge knobs and rolls, a 30,000 sq. ft. green and a bunker of size to match it is a very intimidating looking course. Despite the oncoming thunderstorm and the high winds we, intrepid three, went off and played 1,2,17 and 18. Daunting at first the holes were unique with great land movement and a blast to play. While one could expect the finishing hole with the massive green and bunker to be the highlight, the drivable pay 4 17th with its 40,000 sq.ft. green was the most talked about. It could easily have played as a par 5 into the wind, I look forward to seeing it in more hospitable conditions.

[V_Halyard]

Rob Collins is absolutely the Timothy Leary of present day GCA. He is not alone asTad King is the team’s Dr. Stangelove.

The scale associated with this project is insane… it will be polarizing, but so are Rob and Tad.

I for one appreciate these comparisons, Vaughn!

This is pure navel gazing, and half baked, but I wonder if Landmand might become emblematic of a new kind of maximalist golf course architecture. Raynor was maximalist, Dye was maximalist, any number of Fazio and Nicklaus designs as well, yet this kind of project feels different. How though? What might make Landmand different from Whistling Straits? The phrase that comes to me is "Natural Maximalism," quite literally an oxymoron, but what King-Collins are up to seems to embody that paradox wholeheartedly. They're clearly students of the past, even referencing the Sitwell green at this location, yet are unafraid to pursue as much scale as possible in a way that--might?--won't feel outright artificial. 

Although as soon as I write this I also think of Mammoth Dunes. Perhaps even Rawls?

This ain't Sand Hills, that's for sure, but I'm trying to wrap my head around King-Collins seem to be taking influence from both golden age architecture and certain elements of what people have referred to as the "dark ages" of course building.

Thanks Michael. I would offer that they have more of an L&M ethos.
It is definitely not minimalist. They construct features without apology.
An important point regarding the property, it is impossible to convey in 2D the abruptness of scale of these Loess Hills.
They are massive. In a distance of less than 1/2mile, they rise up from a flat-as-a-pancake river bed to offer 40 or 50 mile long views from multiple vantage points on the property. They invite a largess of features.
One could easily step on to a high point and realize, "damn, that's not big enough".
Most importantly, the player and the property are at the mercy of the wind.
I'll leave you with those.
Additional insight and opinion would be unduly subjective with regard to which of the "-isms" apply.

I have not seen Rawls but was blessed to see Mammoth from tree farm to finish. David routed and meandered around and across the Mammoth Dune with a series of oblique vertical attacks. The scale and length are comparable but Mammoth's features are not as outsized as Landmand. DMK features nestle into the dunes. Sand Valley/Mammoth's weather is not as turbulent as the top of those Loess hills.
The Mammoth Dune waste areas adjacent the fairway are less daunting and the Mammoth length of the routing is more compact a' la The Old Course with the OUT somewhat adjacent to the IN.  Both routings follow their features.
Landmand has longer ridges and wanders farther and wider along those ridge lines.
There would be 100,000,000 things in the world worse than playing them back to back over two days for comparison.

[Rob Collins]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts here. We’re really excited about Landmand, and can’t wait for the opening in the latter part of the year next year. I hope that a lot of you will have the opportunity to make it out next year! Should you head that way, shoot me a DM. If I’m around, it would be fun to meet up & play a few holes….


Re: a few of the comments on “maximalism”, I thought I’d offer a few thoughts from our end…
-It might be a matter of semantics, but I don’t see Landmand as a “maximalist” project. To me, maximalism implies a gratuitous amount of earth moving simply for the sake of moving dirt. That wasn’t actually our approach at all. We inherited a 550 acre piece of land, which has such severe elevation changes across it that simply laying a golf course down on top of the existing contours was an impossibility. What we attempted to do, and what I think we succeeded in (thanks in large part to an extremely talented crew) was in moving the minimal amount of dirt required to build walkable & compelling holes, but not any more than necessary to achieve this goal. In some cases, that “minimal” amount of dirt was massive quantities of earth. On places like the 12th hole, golf holes were built directly onto the existing grade and very little earth was moved. Each hole or section of the course presented a new set of questions and the proper answer for each depended on the pre-construction nature of that hole, but the overarching goal in each case was to build holes that would “hide the fill” & blend back into grade in a natural & appealing way. Thanks again to the talented crew & the massive landscape, the tie-ins work and the presentation is natural & appealing to the eye.


When Ron Whitten visited the site, he made a comment that really stuck with me & was something I had not previously considered. What he said was that Landmand offers people the opportunity to walk around and interact with a piece of land that you wouldn’t otherwise take a leisurely stroll on…it simply wasn’t a piece of land you’d go walk around on because it was so severe. By virtue of the quantity of earth that was moved, it is walkable and allows one to experience that landscape in a way that was previously impossible.

[Jerry Kluger]

I will be interested in seeing how difficult a walk it will be as compared to a course like Erin Hills which is quite a challenge.

[Michael Chadwick]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts here. We’re really excited about Landmand, and can’t wait for the opening in the latter part of the year next year. I hope that a lot of you will have the opportunity to make it out next year! Should you head that way, shoot me a DM. If I’m around, it would be fun to meet up & play a few holes….


Re: a few of the comments on “maximalism”, I thought I’d offer a few thoughts from our end…
-It might be a matter of semantics, but I don’t see Landmand as a “maximalist” project. To me, maximalism implies a gratuitous amount of earth moving simply for the sake of moving dirt. That wasn’t actually our approach at all. We inherited a 550 acre piece of land, which has such severe elevation changes across it that simply laying a golf course down on top of the existing contours was an impossibility. What we attempted to do, and what I think we succeeded in (thanks in large part to an extremely talented crew) was in moving the minimal amount of dirt required to build walkable & compelling holes, but not any more than necessary to achieve this goal. In some cases, that “minimal” amount of dirt was massive quantities of earth. On places like the 12th hole, golf holes were built directly onto the existing grade and very little earth was moved. Each hole or section of the course presented a new set of questions and the proper answer for each depended on the pre-construction nature of that hole, but the overarching goal in each case was to build holes that would “hide the fill” & blend back into grade in a natural & appealing way. Thanks again to the talented crew & the massive landscape, the tie-ins work and the presentation is natural & appealing to the eye.


When Ron Whitten visited the site, he made a comment that really stuck with me & was something I had not previously considered. What he said was that Landmand offers people the opportunity to walk around and interact with a piece of land that you wouldn’t otherwise take a leisurely stroll on…it simply wasn’t a piece of land you’d go walk around on because it was so severe. By virtue of the quantity of earth that was moved, it is walkable and allows one to experience that landscape in a way that was previously impossible.

Rob, thank you for this insider perspective, and congratulations to you and the entire team on producing a golf course that's already garnering much attention.


Maybe maximalism is a loaded word because, as you suggest, in golf course architecture it has typically been used to describe the style of the builder. Shadow Creek exists only because the builder made it so.


Couldn't Landmand, then, be understood as an inversion of Shadow Creek? Maximal is not corresponding to the builder, but in this case it's to the site. Because of the site's severity you had to harness the land and move earth in order to make it tamer and more suitable for golf. That still implies a certain level of excess, which is why I'm drawn to using maximalist to describe your course, but it isn't pejoratively used here whatsoever. What I'm trying to get at is that your course might force us to consider a new way of defining maximalism in golf, stripping it, in this instance, of its negative associations.


I hope that doesn't come across as semantic, because I actually think there's something demonstrably different going on at Landmand versus a place like Shadow Creek or even Tobacco Road. Let me try to use a surf simile to distinguish what I mean. Nowadays you can ride on mechanically powered waves, artificial yet perfect breaks, but what you're doing isn't that at all. You and King are more like the wild individuals who first thought they could surf a 100+ ft wave. You're taking the sport further towards a natural extreme, not an artificial one.

[Tim Gallant]

Rob,


Thanks for jumping on and I really enjoyed the photo tour! A question: is there a hole / stretch of holes that you're particularly fond of either because they turned out differently to how you originally envisioned them, or because there was a high level of satisfaction in creating them (or maybe just because they are plan old fun to play!)?


Thanks!

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