[Thomas Dai]

Looking for examples of clubs, private or other, that as membership and playing levels have decreased downsized from 18-holes to 9-holes by say selling for housing or infrastructure half the course and the clubhouse and with the cash raised from the sale improving the remaining 9-holes and having a much smaller clubhouse.
Anyone have any examples?
And of course whether the decision has proved fruitful.
Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

9 hole courses are normally financial disasters, you can only take half the money but you can't buy half a tractor.


It can mean keeping a club going for a while but golfers naturally gravitate to 18 hole courses and leave 9 holers. A few 9-holers buck the trend especially if there is no other choice but by and large the 9 holers end up the 'worst' golf courses, usually because of financial constraints. The clubhouse situation would normally compound the problem because you have 50% less buyers from the start.


You can still have a beautiful course though.

[MCirba]

My understanding is that this will be the case at Robert White's Water Gsp CC (formerly Wolf Hollow, former site of the Eastern Open) on the PA/NJ border.


There are some very good, quirky holes there.


Same deal at Willowbrook outside Allentown.

[Chris_Blakely]

My understanding is that this will be the case at Robert White's Water Gsp CC (formerly Wolf Hollow, former site of the Eastern Open) on the PA/NJ border.


There are some very good, quirky holes there.


Same deal at Willowbrook outside Allentown.

That’s unfortunate, I really like Water Gap.


In Fort Wayne, Indiana the Donald Ross GC downsized from 18 to 9 holes.  They eliminated the 9 newer (non DR) holes and constructed athletic fields for Indiana Tech.  They now own and operate the course.  It was getting a lot of play on my recent round.


Norte Dame’s Burke GC (course on or in middle of campus) was originally 18 holes.  They eliminated 9 holes for dormitories.


Chris

[Jonathan Mallard]

Looking for examples of clubs, private or other, that as membership and playing levels have decreased downsized from 18-holes to 9-holes by say selling for housing or infrastructure half the course and the clubhouse and with the cash raised from the sale improving the remaining 9-holes and having a much smaller clubhouse.
Anyone have any examples?
And of course whether the decision has proved fruitful.
Atb

It doesn't fit your criteria of membership or playing level declines, but the Virginia Tech Golf Course built the Skelton Conference Center & Hotel on the front 9 of the course. There are about 4 holes that are still there. The old 1st hole is used for RV parking during football games.

[Willie_Dow]

My first look would be to find an original nine holes that was extended to an eighteen hole course, [size=78%] and maybe the original nine was by a legendary architect, it might be sensible to consider going back to the original nine.[/size]
[/size]
[/size]

[Duncan Cheslett]

Downsizing from 18 to 9 holes is probably a step too far, but I can think of a lot of courses that would be improved immeasurably by reducing the number of holes from 18 to 12.


I have always thought it a pity that Prestwick's 12 holes was not not taken as the standard model for all other golf courses instead of St Andrews' 18.

[Thomas Dai]

My reference to 18-9 etc is perhaps somewhat misleading and I do understand the financial etc aspects mentioned by Adrian above.
My point is really about the size of the plot of land that a golf course needs in modern society, worldwide society, the priorities of modern society and its effects on golf - land usage, population, water, time constraints, maintenance, clubhouse size and the like.
And of course with a rolled-back ball a smaller area of land effectively plays bigger.
atb

[Matthew Rose]

I believe the Shorewood course on the University of Wisconsin Green Bay campus is another example. I believe it predates the university and then nine holes were preserved when it was built.

The common thread here so far seems to be colleges.

[Jon Wiggett]

My reference to 18-9 etc is perhaps somewhat misleading and I do understand the financial etc aspects mentioned by Adrian above.
My point is really about the size of the plot of land that a golf course needs in modern society, worldwide society, the priorities of modern society and its effects on golf - land usage, population, water, time constraints, maintenance, clubhouse size and the like.
And of course with a rolled-back ball a smaller area of land effectively plays bigger.
atb

Thomas,


Adrian has it pretty much all wrong. Yes it is true that you cannot buy half a tractor but as machines have running hours they last twice as long year wise at a nine holer. The machine park set up really does not have to cost much more than half that of an 18 holer. Also, you need less grounds crew, one or two should do it and the material costs (sand, fertiliser, fuel,.....) is only half. The up sides are that nine holers use less land so cost less there and many people do not have the 4 or 5 hours it takes to play 18 holes so 9 holes is very attractive.


In short, there are many good reasons why you might pick a 9 hole course over 18 though in truth there is a demand for both sizes which is why there are so many well established courses.


Jon

[Tim Martin]

My first look would be to find an original nine holes that was extended to an eighteen hole course, [size=78%] and maybe the original nine was by a legendary architect, it might be sensible to consider going back to the original nine.[/size]

Willie-Plenty of choices to put into this category. When finished you always wish you could have played the original holes twice.

[Joel_Stewart]

Charles Blair MacDonalds first 18 hole course in the US is Downers Grove in Chicago. I believe it was originally called the Chicago Golf Club which then moved to Wheaton.


It was downsized from 18 to 9 for housing and then years later a driving range was installed. The result is only 4 original holes remain and its completely mismanaged by the city of Chicago.

[Brad Tufts]

In Fort Wayne, Indiana the Donald Ross GC downsized from 18 to 9 holes.  They eliminated the 9 newer (non DR) holes and constructed athletic fields for Indiana Tech.  They now own and operate the course.  It was getting a lot of play on my recent round.


Chris

Totally on the mild scale, but this is interesting.  I swing through Ft. Wayne every year for a couple hours and I played this course like 5 years ago to check the box, probably the "worst" (independent of financial well-being) Ross course I have ever played.  The Ross holes are fine, but the other nine across the street was on more compelling land.  Indiana Tech will probably keep it running a bit better than whoever owned it before.  The scorecard on the website now says "Donald Ross Golf Club by Indiana Tech" on the front!

[Lou_Duran]

My reference to 18-9 etc is perhaps somewhat misleading and I do understand the financial etc aspects mentioned by Adrian above.
My point is really about the size of the plot of land that a golf course needs in modern society, worldwide society, the priorities of modern society and its effects on golf - land usage, population, water, time constraints, maintenance, clubhouse size and the like.
And of course with a rolled-back ball a smaller area of land effectively plays bigger.
atb

Thomas,


Adrian has it pretty much all wrong. Yes it is true that you cannot buy half a tractor but as machines have running hours they last twice as long year wise at a nine holer. The machine park set up really does not have to cost much more than half that of an 18 holer. Also, you need less grounds crew, one or two should do it and the material costs (sand, fertiliser, fuel,.....) is only half. The up sides are that nine holers use less land so cost less there and many people do not have the 4 or 5 hours it takes to play 18 holes so 9 holes is very attractive.


In short, there are many good reasons why you might pick a 9 hole course over 18 though in truth there is a demand for both sizes which is why there are so many well established courses.


Jon

Jon,


There might be a few exceptions, but there is a simple concept in economics that supports Adrian's comments, you know, economies of scale.  There is a reason why the small family farm can't compete with larger commercial operations.


David wants to go small in a game and an industry that by necessity must get bigger.  The minimalist mom and pop operation just won't work in very many places.

[Peter Flory]

But if the sale of 9 allows them to retire debt, the savings on the debt service coverage may outweigh the slightly more inefficient operations.

[Jeff Schley]

Charles Blair MacDonalds first 18 hole course in the US is Downers Grove in Chicago. I believe it was originally called the Chicago Golf Club which then moved to Wheaton.


It was downsized from 18 to 9 for housing and then years later a driving range was installed. The result is only 4 original holes remain and its completely mismanaged by the city of Chicago.

Very good Joel, small correction is there are 5 original holes left and owned and managed by the Downers Grove Park District.  I hope it survives, but is constantly under the gun as most communities are cash strapped and these courses break even at best.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,


There might be a few exceptions, but there is a simple concept in economics that supports Adrian's comments, you know, economies of scale.  There is a reason why the small family farm can't compete with larger commercial operations.


David wants to go small in a game and an industry that by necessity must get bigger.  The minimalist mom and pop operation just won't work in very many places.

Lou,


think about where your costs are and then you will see that what Adrian is saying just does not stack up. The line 'you cannot buy half a tractor' is an old, lazy line brought out to impress but it is fundamentally wrong. With an 18 hole course you do not get a price reduction on land because you want twice as much, you wear your tractor out twice as quick thus doubling your spend. Your grounds crew is twice the size as is your machine shed......


Running a golf facility is not the same as running a farm.


Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

I can think of several examples of old established clubs in the Manchester suburbs who have been struggling financially for the last decade or so and who face imminent insolvency unless some sort of drastic action is taken.

Many clubs are losing money year after year and it is only the book value of assets such as land and buildings which enable them to stay in business.

Selling 40 acres or so of land for residential development and consolidating to a nine (or twelve) hole course might well be an attractive alternative to closure for many.


Or it may just be a stepping stone to closure...




...nine hole courses appear to be struggling even more than those with a full eighteen. It is very difficult to get past the "credibility" problem. Most potential members and visitors will gravitate towards 18 hole course rather than 9 holers.


I once again make the case for 12 hole courses. If recognised by CONGU for handicap purposes I think that 12 hole courses would prove popular.  12 holes is the Goldilocks golf course!

[Ryan Coles]

I can think of several examples of old established clubs in the Manchester suburbs who have been struggling financially for the last decade or so and who face imminent insolvency unless some sort of drastic action is taken.

Many clubs are losing money year after year and it is only the book value of assets such as land and buildings which enable them to stay in business.

Selling 40 acres or so of land for residential development and consolidating to a nine (or twelve) hole course might well be an attractive alternative to closure for many.


Or it may just be a stepping stone to closure...




...nine hole courses appear to be struggling even more than those with a full eighteen. It is very difficult to get past the "credibility" problem. Most potential members and visitors will gravitate towards 18 hole course rather than 9 holers.


I once again make the case for 12 hole courses. If recognised by CONGU for handicap purposes I think that 12 hole courses would prove popular.  12 holes is the Goldilocks golf course!

Duncan


A club selling 40 acres for residential would up sticks and build a new 18 holes + somewhere else. They’ve hit the jackpot. See Royal Norwich.


Economies of scale are applicable to Golf Clubs. Many costs are either fixed or not proportionately linked to 9 18 or 27 holes. If you own the land, it normally makes sense to extend rather than reduce the operation if a change is to be made to number of holes, and better still if construction costs covered or mitigated by land fill.


The market says 18 holes minimum, with a few enjoyable exceptions. To suggest otherwise is to confuse personal taste and idealism with financial reality.


If downsizing made sense, it would be happening.

[Thomas Dai]

Is there a likelihood that down the line, not tomorrow, not next year, but sometime in the future, that in and around metropolitan/urban areas it might be 9-holes (or another number less than 18) or nothing?
atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan


A club selling 40 acres for residential would up sticks and build a new 18 holes + somewhere else. They’ve hit the jackpot. See Royal Norwich.


Economies of scale are applicable to Golf Clubs. Many costs are either fixed or not proportionately linked to 9 18 or 27 holes. If you own the land, it normally makes sense to extend rather than reduce the operation if a change is to be made to number of holes, and better still if construction costs covered or mitigated by land fill.


The market says 18 holes minimum, with a few enjoyable exceptions. To suggest otherwise is to confuse personal taste and idealism with financial reality.


If downsizing made sense, it would be happening.

The problem with cashing in and upping sticks is that many if not most of these clubs have registered as CASCs in order to save 80% on their business rates. CASC rules are that the proceeds of any disposal of assets must be reinvested in local sporting activities. It is unlikely that relocation to a site outside town would satisfy CASC rules.


A sensible and logical solution would be local club mergers and the disposal of one course. Bitter historical rivalries probably make this a non-starter in most places however!

[Ryan Coles]

A Club could be registered as a CASC and move as long as they continue to operate. It’s only on winding up that any proceeds have to be distributed. Indeed it’s advantageous in reducing tax liability to be registered a CASC when undergoing something like that.

[Paul Jones]

Oak Hill (San Antonio) sold part of their property and used the money to improve the course and help financially while keeping it 18 holes.

[Ryan Coles]

Is there a likelihood that down the line, not tomorrow, not next year, but sometime in the future, that in and around metropolitan/urban areas it might be 9-holes (or another number less than 18) or nothing?
atb

I’d say no.


Much more likely sold for housing and move further out of town.

[Lou_Duran]

Oak Hill (San Antonio) sold part of their property and used the money to improve the course and help financially while keeping it 18 holes.

Recently?  What part of the property was sold?  What improvements were made?  I didn't see much Tillie when I played it some 10 years ago.  I suspected that the financials at that time weren't favorable as my hosts were eager for me to join!

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