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Matthew Mollica

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #200 on: August 12, 2019, 04:09:20 PM »
“We can move all our tees forward if we wish, without investing more money in costly land, but we cannot keep on moving them backwards.” - Bobby Jones
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #201 on: August 12, 2019, 04:11:34 PM »
"95% of lost balls are the result of not hitting the ball far enough." - Unknown

Ira Fishman

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #202 on: August 12, 2019, 04:27:58 PM »
James Reader:


Thank you for posting the link above.


There has been so much b.s. in this thread already that I don't know if anyone is thinking anymore, or just reacting, but I would like to direct the conversation toward one of John Low's points that seems to have been abandoned by good players today:


 "The good architect will see to it that the hole proclaims that the powerful player who wishes to register the par figure, must keep well to the right or well to the left with tee shot at two-shot and three-shot holes, and so in each stroke there shall be some special interest for him, some special manœuvre as that practiced by the skillful billiard player who always has in mind the next stroke or strokes ahead . . ."

When I was starting our project in Houston, I read a couple of books about the way Tour players strategize around the course today - if you can call it that.  It no longer has anything to do with trying to position themselves for the next strokes ahead; it's all about taking a penalty out of play 99% of the time.  And the best players in the world today apparently need a 65-yard-wide target to do just that . . . because modern equipment has them swinging so hard and then hitting wedges into par-4 greens.


Does anyone think that Jones or Hogan or Nicklaus didn't concern themselves with angle of approach?  We have lost the strategic element of the game, because modern players are LESS ACCURATE, because the equipment and set-up of courses no longer makes accuracy important to them.  But we've even gone beyond that, because we have redefined accuracy to be irrelevant, and because the pros have deemed it to be unfair design to ask the player to hit into a less than 65-yard wide target from the tee. 


They really think they should only worry about trouble 1% of the time . . . the very statistical point at which they shouldn't worry about it anymore.


If you read those last two sentences aloud to John Low in his grave, he might come out and do something about it.  And, sadly, that seems to be the best chance we've got of anybody doing anything about it.


Is my memory so bad that I am wrong that the balls in the 60s and 70s curved well more off line than current balls, especially in the wind? Wouldn't returning to that reality (if it was one) help address the 65 yard width dilemma?


Ira

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #203 on: August 12, 2019, 05:13:59 PM »
This weekend I turned to my playing partners who all belong to multiple clubs and play over 100 rounds per year and asked what they would think of rolling the ball back 20%. It may have been the dumbest thing they ever heard come out of my mouth.




If you'd said 10% would their bemusement have been on the same level?
The problem with this argument is the game outside of Nth America went through this in the early 80s - we all gave up 25 yards - and no one gave up golf. They hardly complained.
The problem is the USA isn't the only dog in this fight.


I wish we could be more careful about the distance of the small ball back in the early 80's. I was a plus handicap golfer at that time and had an occasion to play that ball. In optimum conditions, baked out fairways and a wind at my back, I could drive 4 of the greens at my course that were each 300+ yds with the large ball. The only occasion where the small ball would be a benefit was into a head wind. I doubt that it rolled out much further and would question its ability to out soar a spinning larger ball with a tail wind. Overall I would give it a 5% advantage or around 8 yds for the expert player. That is only a guess because the only fact I know is that when given the chance I would always play the best ball possible and never felt the overall playability of the small ball exceeded the 100 compression Titleist Pro Traj.


Ira,


Back in the day of spinny balls roads adjacent to the course were in play than are now only a distraction. Back in the early 80's it was not uncommon to see a low handicap amateur golfer hit a drive up to 150 yds off line. Put that ball in the hands of a millennial and people will die. I still remember as a young man trying to shorten a dog leg left and hitting double cross so deep into a neighborhood that I jumped into my cart, drove to the clubhouse and went directly to my home. It was one of those morning paper moments that modern media has made obsolete.

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #204 on: August 12, 2019, 06:04:17 PM »
Pete, why do you think that's possible technically--40 yards less for the Pros, 4 yards less for us?  Of course, everyone would support that!  But no one has ever shown that that is possible.
The only new ball that I have seen tested was by the R&A a few years ago--that went 8% less for everyone.  So that would bring a pro down from 300 to 275 and us down from 220 to 205.  That is a more appropriate question.
Tell me if you know differently.



Jim,


Geoff Shackelford, in his book "The Future of Golf" references an article in the December 2003 edition of Golf World, in which Top Flite Vice President of research and development Tom Kennedy states "the transfer of energy of the club to the ball at various speeds is not linear". He added that Top Flite could make a ball that goes a shorter distance at high swing speeds, while not changing the game for the average player.


If Top Flite felt they could do that sixteen years ago, Titleist can surely do it today. I have no doubt in the world they can. With their R&D, NASA scientists, their resources - no doubt. The question in my mind is why they feel they can't profit from marketing this ball - as that is surely the only reason it has not hit the shelves.


Matthew
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

JESII

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #205 on: August 12, 2019, 06:18:35 PM »
Agree with Matt about the NASA scientists. Not able is not the reason.


I suspect the two driving factors in non-action to date are:


1) does it make sense to change so much for such a small percentage of participants?
2) what happens when you legislate away a hard earned market share? Titleist would likely have a good, and very expensive case...but I am not an attorney...




John,


It’s the 46” drivers sending balls further offline that in yesteryear, and the modern ball flying further once launched.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #206 on: August 12, 2019, 06:26:11 PM »
It is my contention that the balls of the early 80's went more off line than the balls of today. The duck hooks of yesteryear were to die for. I thought my house was being hit by drives from the tee being hit off line until I did some observation. The shots doing the most damage to my house are second shots. I am not 100% sure that a shorter ball that spins more would cure my problem.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #207 on: August 12, 2019, 06:45:44 PM »
I don't understand the lawsuit issue. They already make such lists.  Are they getting sued by the ones who don't make the approved lists?

https://www.usga.org/equipment-standards/conforming-club-ball-lists.html

JESII

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #208 on: August 12, 2019, 07:38:51 PM »
What are you talking about?


If you’re responding to me, the conforming ball list wouldn’t be an indicator.


Titleist’s golf ball sales volume as a percentage of total golf ball sales is...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 08:21:55 PM by Jim Sullivan »

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #209 on: August 12, 2019, 09:44:22 PM »
Jim,


I think Kalen is after some clarification regarding the grounds on which a ball manufacturer would launch legal action against the USGA and R&A should regulations regarding ball specs be changed, rendering previously manufactured balls no longer compliant with redrafted rules. He would not be alone in that instance, I am sure.
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

JESII

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #210 on: August 12, 2019, 09:51:53 PM »
By rolling the ball back say 20%, the regulatory bodies would cut the knees out from under the leading market share golf ball companies, and all of the investment they've made and profit they're earning (and expecting to earn) as a result.  These companies would have a case against them...in truth, I'd say it's limited to Titleist as the sole risk on the golf ball front.


I'm not assuring you they would win, but they have much deeper pockets and a deeply vested interest in winning.


Was that not commonly understood?


I can imagine it's not universally agreed to, or even a concern for the most ardent of rollback advocates, but surely its acknowledged as a risk, right?

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #211 on: August 12, 2019, 10:17:27 PM »
Correct Jim. And thanks for the reply. It will clear a few things up for some who read this thread.


One thing that’s become apparent to me in all this - the level of assumed knowledge among some people in the discussion is not actually where the level truly sits.


Many golfers remain totally oblivious to the fact Nicklaus and Woods have been calling for reduced flight balls for a long time. No doubt some are not across the potential legal risks to regulators if a rollback is undertaken.


And yes - the risk of legal action upon the USGA and the R&A from Acushnet is a risk me and others clearly recognise - it is a significant barrier to action by the regulatory bodies. Another battle to be won if the Rollback Alliance aims are to be realised.


Matt
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 10:50:43 PM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

JESII

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #212 on: August 12, 2019, 10:47:11 PM »
When I asked early in the thread what you would say to Jay Monahan and Keith Pelley I was serious. How do the PGA Tours and Acushnet win in this? How do they even hold their own?


Once those bodies are outside the boat, the USGA / R&A become irrelevant the minute the PGA Tour says no to this type of rule change...


Who wins the most with a rollback?

Garland Bayley

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #213 on: August 12, 2019, 11:14:30 PM »

...
2) what happens when you legislate away a hard earned market share? Titleist would likely have a good, and very expensive case...but I am not an attorney...
...


This seems to me to be a nonissue. Titleist lost their market share before the ProV1. Nearly everyone else had a better ball, with Strata advertising they had the number 1 ball on tour. When they finally caught up technologically with the ProV1, they got their market share back. Why? Because the are Titleist.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #214 on: August 12, 2019, 11:19:59 PM »
“with Strata advertising they had the number 1 ball on tour.”



Haha...


Some of us were trying to have a serious conversation Garland...please...

Mark_F

Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #215 on: August 12, 2019, 11:21:34 PM »
And yes - the risk of legal action upon the USGA and the R&A from Acushnet is a risk me and others clearly recognise - it is a significant barrier to action by the regulatory bodies.
If the regulatory bodies framed a rollback and reduction in driver size as a matter of health and safety, the manufacturers wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Tour players are dropping like flies with back problems.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #216 on: August 12, 2019, 11:26:47 PM »
By rolling the ball back say 20%, the regulatory bodies would cut the knees out from under the leading market share golf ball companies, and all of the investment they've made and profit they're earning (and expecting to earn) as a result.  These companies would have a case against them...in truth, I'd say it's limited to Titleist as the sole risk on the golf ball front.


I'm not assuring you they would win, but they have much deeper pockets and a deeply vested interest in winning.


Was that not commonly understood?


I can imagine it's not universally agreed to, or even a concern for the most ardent of rollback advocates, but surely its acknowledged as a risk, right?

Not acknowledged!

The technologies are all essentially equal. The USGA & R&A would simply define a new technology for them all to be equal on.

I see no valid issue for a law suit.

If Titleist had better technology, why did Tiger choose a different ball? To penalize himself?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #217 on: August 12, 2019, 11:29:16 PM »
“with Strata advertising they had the number 1 ball on tour.”



Haha...


Some of us were trying to have a serious conversation Garland...please...

So now you are into revisionist history?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #218 on: August 12, 2019, 11:29:37 PM »
Can you prove your course will have fewer injuries from incoming pellets after a rollback?


Could you prove recent injuries are the sole result of I&B technology?


I don’t think H&S has a leg to stand on...


This has to be in the best interests of somebody, other than the blood-sucking lawyers, right? Who is it?

JESII

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #219 on: August 12, 2019, 11:31:25 PM »
Mark O’Meara won two majors in ‘98 with the Strata...I’m sure their advertising was based solely on that. I’d be shocked if they claimed to be the #1 ball beyond being the ball MO played...

Rob Rigg

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #220 on: August 12, 2019, 11:45:16 PM »
To address some questions that were answered but continue to be asked:

Golf Ball - Technology is so advanced that manufacturers could absolutely create a "rollback to this" ball which would reduce the distance on high swing speed players by 10% or 20% while reducing the distance for slow swing speed players by nothing.
Don't worry, Titleist would still be #1. They sponsor the most pros and that is why people buy Pro V1s. Their "tour" golf ball is no different than Bridgestone, Srixon or TaylorMade. Especially for amateurs who don't flight their balls through "windows" and understand the benefits of different covers, cores and mantles for driver, iron and wedge spin rates.

What do we do with modern equipment?
Manage the CT / COR of club faces. This also creates a larger penalty on high swing speed players than those who swing at lower swing speeds.

The size of metalwood club heads could also be adjusted if desired. The larger the club head the bigger the advantage for high swing speed players. Many lower swing speed players, statistically, hit the ball farther with their 3 woods because it has more loft and has a shorter shaft making solid contact easier.

Going back to persimmon would be ridiculous.

Also - Every company is pushing the USGA limits right now. There is no "free 10 yards" for anyone in CLUB technology anymore. It's all about getting fit properly so the BALL should be the priority.
Irons - Irrelevant - Very few TOUR players or Top Ams play irons that provide extra distance due to consistency issues.

What about older people leaving the game due to equipment?
I haven't read anything from the NGF that would support the idea that modern golf equipment has increased the length of time golfers stay in the game. The cart yes, modern equipment - not proven. Just play the right tees.

Again, the lower your swing speed, the less modern equipment helps.

I don't really understand the "how does the TOUR win" question. Reducing distance off the tee would reward improved ball striking. There would still be golfers who hit the ball farther than their competitors, but they wouldn't have wedges into greens which would make TV more entertaining. Drivable short par 4s wouldn't go away or the 17th at Sawgrass. All should be fine with the world shouldn't it?



Garland Bayley

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #221 on: August 13, 2019, 01:55:20 AM »
Mark O’Meara won two majors in ‘98 with the Strata...I’m sure their advertising was based solely on that. I’d be shocked if they claimed to be the #1 ball beyond being the ball MO played...

So Tiger conclusively demonstrates the other tour pros have to ditch the Titleist ball after the 2000 US Open. What are they going to do? Adopt Tiger's Nike ball? Adopt O'Meara's major winning Strata? Some other unproven ball?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #222 on: August 13, 2019, 02:23:58 AM »


To address some questions that were answered but continue to be asked:

Golf Ball - Technology is so advanced that manufacturers could absolutely create a "rollback to this" ball which would reduce the distance on high swing speed players by 10% or 20% while reducing the distance for slow swing speed players by nothing.


....................





Your assertion about advanced technology suggests that ball manufacturers could change the slope of the distance vs swing speed line to be flatter. (see this article for a graph of the current slope of the line with modern balls - https://www.usga.org/articles/2011/04/do-long-hitters-get-an-unfair-advantage-2147496940.html   The current balls go about 3 yards further per mph gain in swing speed.  You're suggesting that they could build balls that only gain, say, 1 yard per mph gain in club head speed.


If that were true, why would the converse not be true?  Why couldn't manufacturers today make a ball that goes the same distance for top end swing speeds but goes further for slower swing speeds.  Why haven't the manufacturers built that ball if they have the advanced technology?  It would conform and be a really hot seller for slow swingers.

I believe that no such technology exists.  If you want to roll back the top end 30 yards then the bottom end is likely to lose about 30 yards too.

If the ball were to be rolled back I'm not sure why any manufacturer would be disadvantaged.  People would still need to buy balls.  Titleist would probably still have the lion's share of the market.  People are buying the brand name more than they are some kind of superior technology in Titleist balls.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #223 on: August 13, 2019, 02:33:17 AM »



Matthew,


If you want to propose something specific for the ball, could I suggest that it could be as simple as changing the size and weight of the ball.  The new standard could be 1.74" in diameter and 1.5 ounces in weight.  A larger, lighter ball will go less far and be more susceptible to going off line.  No need to get into spin or dimples or other esoteric specifications.  Easy to specify and easy to monitor and approve.  You could change the ODS and initial velocity standards in sync with the new weight and size too.


 

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #224 on: August 13, 2019, 08:36:22 AM »
Bryan, thanks for the reply, and the considered suggestions. I appreciate the post, and the other thoughtful contributions in the thread.


The Rollback Alliance exists to promote informed, meaningful discussion that may precipitate regulatory reform, enacted by those who formulate the Rules of Golf.  It is these bodies who will ultimately determine the degree of distance correction desired by revised laws pertaining to club and balls. They may also consider the element of ‘correctiveness’ possessed by balls and clubs – as the ‘de-skilling’ of the game courtesy of technology is obviously a factor equally worthy of attention.

I’m not certain the Rollback Alliance will be promoting a precise position regarding desired distance correction. We wish to provide a united voice urging reform. Contemporary voices, along with those who have said the same throughout the last century.

I think a return to the yardages seen in the amateur and pro games prior to the year 2000 is popular among the group.  Our pilots and supporters are however of varying minds.  Some favor bifurcation.  Some prefer a universal rollback.  Some favor ball and club reform, while others are happy to have club regulations left alone at this time.

We are however united in our belief that burgeoning club and ball technology is having a deleterious effect upon the game, and that action is required now.  This is the message we wish to send the governors of the game. These bodies need to be emboldened and reminded that they are guardians of the game.  They are the rightful governors of golf, and they need to govern.  Perhaps Rollback Alliance will help prod them to do just this.

If the Alliance gains critical mass, it will signal to the R&A and the USGA that regulatory reform is urgent.  It may also ease the process of implementation if more golfers are better informed.  Some are clearly not so educated currently.

Bryan, your suggestion on weight and size is of merit, yet I also feel it may be a moot point.  The manufacturers will no doubt have performed in-depth research and testing on balls made to a variety of potential future regulations. These will relate to a host of design elements apart from weight and size. I know I’d do that if I were in the manufacturer’s position.  They will have readied for discussions and prepared new spec options they find palatable, should the USGA and R&A collaboratively approach the task of formulating new regulations.

Jim, how do you get the Tours on-side? I hope I answered it to your satisfaction in post #104. How do manufacturers win? Personally, I suspect it includes the following - a collaborative approach with manufacturers, very generous sunset clauses on existing ball specs, a degree of compromise on distance restriction, minimal rule changes on driver specs, and a universal rollback (no bifurcation) allowing Titleist et al to market the ball pros use to all golfers around the world.  They may also go to market with new drivers – something they love doing!  Their profit risk is mitigated by this approach in my personal and humble opinion.

Who wins with a rollback? Importantly, golf wins with revised regulations. There are safety, environmental, financial, and time gains to be had, among others.  The scale of the game cannot continue to grow as it has. People need to realise that fundamental truth.  The game will suffer in a number of ways, not least of which reputationally.  The inherent strategy of the game will devolve, golf will be less skill dependant, and the cost of play will continue to rise.  Innumerable courses of significance are already lost to the professional game – which is terrible.  The re-establishment of a robust authoritative governing body would also be a welcome win should the USGA and R&A step up and do their job. The list of wins goes on.  Rollback won’t change the world but it would deliver considerable wins for golf.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 08:38:49 AM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."