[ian]

Mark,

It still is in a key spot. The bunker creates a very difficult carry angle from the tee. Most players play away and right now that it has returned. The carry is 240, downhill slightly, but into the prevailing wind. The bunker is very much in play.
The irony is that the distance is from what is still thought to be the origional tee.

[wsmorrison]

Ian,

Perhaps you have a good photo of the shared bunkers on Merion West between the 11th and 18th holes that you can post.  They are wonderfully placed and a real treat to the eye.  There is real complexity to the outline form of the bunkers and internally there is a lot of vegetation that works really well.  There's a pine tree, some shrubbery (the Knights Who Say Ne must have helped out), and some Scottish Broom.   Interestingly there are a number of bunkers with trees incorporated in them around the West.  5 has one in the right fairway bunker and one on the large right greenside bunker.  

[Mark_Fine]

Mark S,
Regarding what I'd do - I'd do what you did and move back the tees.  But if that were not an option then it really gets tricky with shared bunkers.  You might have to decide if the shared complex favors one hole more so than the other.  You might also consider tweaking the complex to create some deception from the tee to help make it appear to play as it was meant to be played without moving it or splitting it up.  It's a tough call and one that would require extensive study.  

Ian's situation on #15 sounds fortunate in that the yardage for the carry is still reasonable at 240 yards.  Clearly the complex was meant to be skirted in the past rather than carried in the air as it would be now (given we are talking about the original teeing area).  It would have been interesting to see what would have been done if instead of being 240 off the tee, the shared complex was at 180 or so.  Now you have a tougher issue to deal with.  

Ian if that were the case, what would you have done?
Mark

[wsmorrison]

I believe that the bunkers on the West Course at Merion were put in after Hugh Wilson's death.  There is a report that Bill Dow related to me that mentioned there were no bunkers on the course as of 1924.  Wilson died in Jan of 1925 and was sick for much of '24.  It seems reasonable to conclude that Flynn and Joe Valentine were responsible for the bunkering on the West, Flynn wanted to put in much more complex bunkering on the par 5 3rd hole with a large bunker field that needed to be carried--we have his drawing for that.  However, it doesn't appear that this was ever carried out.  Bill tells me that the Japanese Red Pines that are in some of the bunkers on the West are from the Atlantic City area which is where the sea grasses came from as well, I recall Tom Paul discussing this awhile back.  Flynn was redesigning ACCC in the early 20s and I'm sure Joe Valentine would have accompanied Flynn on more than one occasion.  The trees would appear to be a Valentine contribution.  I'll have to ask Richie about this sometime soon.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Interesting about the trees in the bunkers.  I'm trying to recall other Flynn courses where trees were purposely planted inside bunkers.  Do you recall any?  Do you think Flynn supported this?  Sounds like it works in this situation.  
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Mark,
I'm not sure whether it was Flynn, Flynn/Valentine, or Valentine alone planted those trees.  My unconfirmed suspicion is as Bill Dow surmises, that it was done by Joe Valentine.  There is one other course that Flynn did that has a tree within the bunker (actually the tree is planted in a cutout of the bunker and not within it but it is surrounded by bunker) and it is the last fairway bunker on the right of the present 7th at Philadelphia Cricket, that's right Cricket!  This was Flynn's redesign and was the 4th hole on his progression.  We have to be careful because it is possible the tree was planted afterwards, but the cutout is clearly indicated on Flynn's drawing.  Flynn significantly altered 6 holes and slightly changed 3 others, I believe in 1928.  Very interesting that the course played a different progression, both before and after Flynn but was subsequently altered to today's progression.  Flynn's changes so soon after Tillinghast completed the course is a fascinating story.  We are helping the club with their 150th anniversary history and will include the info in our Flynn book.
Regards,
Wayne

[TEPaul]

When it comes to Merion West bunkers don't forget Richie Valentine. I think there're some Richie Valentine bunkers out there and possibly at #13 green and green-end which are some of the most wonderful and eccentric bunkers I've ever seen particularly that eye defying one on the left of #13 green with a little scrub pine growing right over it! A tree in a bunker, you ask?? Don't worry about that--if you get in that bunker left of #13 even if the tree wasn't there you'd probably have to stand on your head to get the ball out of that bunker successfully!  

[ian]

Wayne, below is the bunker created by the Knights of Ne at Merion West



Mark F. , This is looking from near the forward tee. You vcan see the strategy for the hole is rock solid, so no bunker changes were required. At 180, I still would have brought it back, but probably would have to concider an additional bunker further up too ( safety was an issue at this corner prior to returning the bunker).



I think Tom MacWood mentioned Hollywood, this bunker complex seperates 16 (seen here) from 14 the hole left of the complex (coming the opposite direction).



Is the bunker backing the first hole, which is played over on the second tee shot, a shared bunker? I think so. Even better question: Is the bunkers on the 11th and 16th "shared" at Philly CC when you look from 16 fairway. hmmmmmm?

[wsmorrison]

Ian,
Great photo, thanks for sharing it.

Tom,
You're absolutely right.  Richie was completely responsible for the green end mounding and bunkering on 13 and it is super cool stuff!

[SPDB]

Ian - Didn't Thompson build a bunch of these. I thought Capilano had numerous shared bunkers.

Another one I thought of which is actually pretty remarkable is the bunker shared by #2 and 7 greens at Piping Rock. It's not a very big bunker either.

Wayne - refresh my memory on the Philly Cricket hole you are talking about, if you wouldn't mind.

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks Wayne!  Very interesting.  Your research is superb and very enlightening.  

I think this whole topic of shared bunkers is facinating and I'm enjoying the comments and thoughts from everyone.

[ian]

SPDB,

Yes Stanley loved the idea. On the most famous layouts there are a number of great examples:
Capilano (7 and is the best one
Jaspar Park (6 and 10 from what I remember)
Banff (2 and 17 is best) all have great ones.

They also occured on:
St Thomas 5 and 6
Peterborough 15 and 17
Catarqui 9 and 10
Kawartha 1 and 10 green
to name a few....

[T_MacWood]

I shutter when I read "bring back original design intent". There have been many atrocities committed in the name of bringing "back original design intent."

One of the keys to shared bunkers is removal of trees. Most of these old courses that had a number of shared bunkers were usually open or nearly treeless.

Inverness has some good ones. The bunkers shared by #1 and #10. And the unique and punishing bobby-pin shaped bunker between #14 and #15. Scioto had a similar bunker between #13 and #15 -- unfortunately it is gone. The series of bunkers between #13 and #14 at Pinehurst No.2 (I think they are called the 'Box Cars'). Perhaps not as strategic as they once were--IMO it would be sacreligious to move them in name of 'original design intent'.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
You make an excellent point about "original design intent" and are correct that many courses have been ruined by poor attempts to do just that!  That is one of the reasons for this post on shared bunkers.  They are a tough issue to address.  It is not so much that they are "not strategic anymore", it is that they are now often much more penal than they used to be (for weaker golfers).  There are many cases where in the past, weaker golfers couldn't reach them as easily as they can now.  Today, better golfers don't even see them.  For that reason some courses have bulldozed them away, planted trees to screen them out, grassed them over, and/or tried to mitigate their difficulty.

Unfortunately, restoring them as they once were is not always an acceptable recommendation.  The weaker golfers complain they are too penal and the better golfers complain they serve no strategic purpose    
Mark

 

[wsmorrison]

SPDB,
Without getting into too much detail here, the holes that Flynn redesigned at Philly Cricket are the current 6,7,9,12,13 and 14th which were the number 8,4,6,12,13, and 14th.  Flynn changed the yardage on the current 8th formerly the 5th by moving the tee forward (this allowed a different angle of the tee shot vs today's 9th the former 6th with a tee location to the left of the current tee making it a much better hole, especially with the added bunkers early along the left fairway that used to be there), rebuilt the 10th green, and changed the tee location on 17.  Some interesting stuff, only 1 or 2 people had any idea at the club that Flynn did any work at all.  We have the drawings and an old newspaper account from the Apr 17 Evening Bulletin (NLE) that answers many questions.  One question not answered is what Tillinghast was doing then and his reaction to Flynn's involvement.  Who knows, Tillinghast may have wanted it to happen.  After all, Tillinghast wanted Toomey and Flynn to be the construction firm that was to do some major redesigns at Sunnehanna.  It doesn't appear that they were done.  I'll have to defer to Tom Paul on this one.

[SPDB]

when was the job done? The routing at Philly Cricket is so all over the place it is difficult for me to remember which holes are which, at least on the other side of the tracks.

[wsmorrison]

SPDB

Philadelphia Cricket Club's Tillinghast course in Flourtown opened for play in 1922.  The changes Flynn made were completed in 1928.  For reference, holes 4 and 7 are parallel par 5s on the other side of the tracks from the clubhouse; today, you have to cross over 7 to get to 4 although it was not played in that progression in Tillinghast or Flynn's day.  Today's 8th is the par 3 across the stream along the right side of the driving range.  Today's 9th (formerly the 6th) is the long par 4 to the left of the abandoned raised railroad tracks.    

Interestingly, we've seen many instances where Flynn came in shortly after a course opened and made modifications ranging from minor design work (Pine Valley (although he did major agronomic and construction work), Columbia CC, Gulph Mills, The Creek Club, Springhaven, etc) to nearly complete redesigns (Shinnecock Hills, Old Course at the Homestead, Beaver Dam, Indian Spring, Washington Golf and CC, etc).

[SPDB]

What did he do at The Creek? just curious

[wsmorrison]

SPDB,

I hope you'll still by the book  .  We're still determining what actually was done at The Creek Club.  At this point, we know that Flynn redesigned the 3rd hole, suggested 2 new 16th and 17th holes (and change the routing progression) that were to be put in in place of the cape and biarritz holes that were constantly being flooded, and proposed regrading the fairways on the lower section that likewise were constantly troubled by flooding.  The club was furious with Macdonald at the results of the work and had to spend nearly $100k to fix the situation dredging and bringing in huge amounts of fill.  The club wanted Flynn's 2 new holes but they could not obtain the land.    Of course that would've meant losing 2 very good Macdonald template holes.  It may be true that Flynn redid many bunkers at the club as well.  Tom Paul and I are getting to the bottom of this with some terrific help from a very avid member of the club who rescued a roomful of documents.  We have some very valuable archival materials that the club was unaware of and are sharing some interesting information.

[SPDB]

Wayne - that's very interesting. Although Flynn's work was probably before his time, Tom Doak reports in TCG that under the auspices of Joe Dey the club removed all bunkers except for 3   ?

You are right about what a tragedy it would have been to have lost the island Biarritz hole, it is by far the most interesting ever built (including Yale).

Where would the changes have come on the suggested changes to 16 & 17th. Although a new 17 wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world, another tragedy would have been occasioned by changing 16, one of the better holes on the course.

Hard to feel sorry for the Creek membership having to pony up 100k, most of the members at the time probably threw that much on their bedside table every night.

Would be interested in knowing more about this as facts come up... and no, it won't stop me from buying the book. you have my word on that.

[peter_p]

  The Reserve Vineyards South course by John Fought has a bunker complex which delineates between #s 3 and 6. These are both 5s, playing in opposite directions and whichever way I play they are in my landing area.
  The intriguing factor in the design is half are invisible when playing either hole, and the hidden ones are behind the ones you see. Hard escape on the play hole, easy out on the obverse.
   Cupp/Fought also put a replica church pew between 8 and 9 at Langdon Farms.

[D_Malley]

wayne
on the 13th at phila. cricket, where does flynn have the tee placed?  I always felt that the original tee was more to the right than the current one, near where the current ladies tee is, today it would have to be behind it.  i think this is a better angle for that tee shot, and also it seems that area is also a better angle for the 15th tee.  maybe a shared tee in that area would work out great.

[wsmorrison]

RG,

Flynn placed the first bunker on the right to encourage play along the outside of the hole, something he liked to do at times to keep things from being predictable.  I agree with you, a tee further to the right  would be a better angle in relation to the bunker and also a higher demand on placing the tee shot for the best angle into the green.

I haven't been there in a long time, but isn't there a tee on the left side of 15 that moves the line of play away from the long axis into the green to a much more shallow one and also brings the left greenside bunkers into play more?  I cannot visualize how the tees would work if melded together.  Sounds interesting though.

Flynn did move the tee on twelve so that the tee shot was over the quarry.  He also rebunkered the landing area adding the left fairway bunkers.  That was one heck of a good tee shot.  I heard a rumor they might be putting it back.

[D_Malley]

on 15 there is a tee already on that side, which i suspect was the original angle intended by tillinghast, it goes from about 150 - 170 yards.  i just think tee area should of been added behind this tee instead of over next to the OB, where the current back tee is, at about 210 yards.  and i also like the angle from this area for play on #13 tee.  i was just curious if flynn placed his tee for that same angle on #13.

[D_Malley]

that is a good angle for #12.  the current member tee uses this angle , but i am not sure if there is much room behind that tee, i think the maint. area comes up pretty quick on that side.  the hole plays no more than 500 from that member tee.  

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