News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« on: June 25, 2019, 08:51:45 PM »
 I have played several great courses like Oakmont, Merion(?), Royal Dornoch, Royal County Down, Royal St. George’s and play a very good course as a member (Rolling Green) but all of them pale compared to the relentless architectural overload that is Pine Valley.


 As I said to a friend on Facebook today “ think of all of the greatest holes you have ever played and this course has 10 better”.


I played lousy with a doublecross I couldn’t shake but the experience is just unbelievable.


No other golf course I have ever played compares to it.


I think it is the width with death beyond that makes it for me. The looks of the diagonals with the huge bunkers and the green complexes are unparalleled and it’s every hole.


After the first hole was over I said “uhoh” I just let the easiest hole go by now it’s going to be tough.


I think of my home course as challenging but it’s downright easy compared to Pine Valley.


Never do I feel on the tee as a 15 handicap that the hole is impossible. I believe I make my own mistakes and all hazards are avoidable. But mishits are severely punished. Strategy abounds but   the punishment is severe.


I asked my host the other day “ what’s your favorite hole ?”  He said “ the one I’m playing “.
AKA Mayday

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2019, 09:00:50 PM »
Mike I've played (or walked) nearly all of the other courses that claim to be in that category and other than the presentation which at times could be improved Pine Valley is by far the best course on the planet.


I'm glad you had the opportunity to see that as well.


You did forget to mention the greens which are also in a class by themselves.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 08:44:46 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2019, 09:09:52 PM »
Mike I've played all of the other courses that claim to be in that category and other than the presentation which at times could be improved Pine Valley is by far the best course on the planet.


I'm glad you had the opportunity to see that as well.


You did forget to mention the greens which are also in a class by themselves.


Yes Mike !  The variety is outstanding.
AKA Mayday

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2019, 09:58:37 PM »
Glad you enjoyed it, Mike.  Architectural overload is a good way to put it!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2019, 10:10:34 PM »
Yes, but as one high ranking employee at Pine Valley once said to me, almost anyone would rather plat at NGLA, on an everyday basis.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2019, 10:22:19 PM »
The overload would blow your mind if experienced everyday.
AKA Mayday

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2019, 10:23:35 PM »
Yes, but as one high ranking employee at Pine Valley once said to me, almost anyone would rather plat at NGLA, on an everyday basis.


Or Sandhills...
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2019, 10:29:31 PM »
Of course, most of Pine Valley's members don't play it every week as their home course, so it's a bit of a moot point.


However, I play somewhere similarly difficult and unforgiving that many people in my city say "I love it, but I wouldn't want to play there every week".


The reality is that a) your game adjusts to what you're playing frequently, and b) on days when I'm not really feeling like the challenge, I move up to the white tees at 300m shorter than the blues and have an easier time of it. I have been meaning to go out and try it from the red tees (a further 600m shorter) but haven't yet. I expect it's also very fun an an altogether different way.


I mean, whether someone would rather play Pine Valley, National Golf Links or Sand Hills more frequently than the others is really a matter of taste -- they're all sublime golf courses and golf experiences.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2019, 11:12:37 PM »
NGLA is like a puppy compared to PVGC.
It’s fun but not relentless. It’s minor league compared to Pine Valley which is major league playoff level.
AKA Mayday

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2019, 11:21:19 PM »
NGLA is like a puppy compared to PVGC.
It’s fun but not relentless. It’s minor league compared to Pine Valley which is major league playoff level.


I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion but NGLA is major league. I've played PV more than a dozen times. After the first time you tend to oversell it. After a while you appreciate its relentless architectural merit but realize it is not a god. NGLA is brilliant. Not sure which one I'd rather play.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2019, 11:34:47 PM »
NGLA is like a puppy compared to PVGC.
It’s fun but not relentless. It’s minor league compared to Pine Valley which is major league playoff level.


I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion but NGLA is major league. I've played PV more than a dozen times. After the first time you tend to oversell it. After a while you appreciate its relentless architectural merit but realize it is not a god. NGLA is brilliant. Not sure which one I'd rather play.


I said it stands by itself architecturally. There is no relief from the features smacking you in the face throughout. NGLA has many breaks in the action. 
AKA Mayday

Mark_F

Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2019, 03:24:09 AM »
Of course, most of Pine Valley's members don't play it every week as their home course, so it's a bit of a moot point.
It's about time we had another definition of a great course.

One so great the members don't play it all the time because it's too good.

I wonder if Monica Bellucci's ex-husband slept in a separate room five nights a week.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2019, 05:24:05 AM »

I said it stands by itself architecturally. There is no relief from the features smacking you in the face throughout. NGLA has many breaks in the action.


Tom MacWood's article needs to be reviewed by those that may not have seen it - https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/thomas-macwood-george-arthur-crump-portrait-of-a-legend/


In the "10 Round Test" of silly GCA conversations, I would be National = 6, PV = 4. Part of the uniqueness of the PV site is its isolation in the tree covered Pine Barrens, whereas National sits on a sandy site where it blends in and fits a larger area and can even be seen as overshadowed by Shinnecock.


I probably had similar feelings towards Lahinch as Mayday had towards Pine Valley - both one time plays. Let's circle back on a second play by both of us as "hit and runners" are not always the best reviewers!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2019, 05:28:28 AM »
Of course, most of Pine Valley's members don't play it every week as their home course, so it's a bit of a moot point.
It's about time we had another definition of a great course.

One so great the members don't play it all the time because it's too good.

I wonder if Monica Bellucci's ex-husband slept in a separate room five nights a week.


Mark,


They don’t play it every week because the lion’s share of them live interstate.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2019, 06:57:24 AM »
 8) ;D


Mayday stressed architecturally, which is the key to this whole post.


When you turn back to the sea at Portrush its almost like the gate to Brigadoon, a mystic golf experience walking down that hill.
The splendor of the world that surrounds you at Cypress and Pebble Beach is beyond any golf experience I've ever felt. That being said the grandeur of the space at Sand Hills , the splendid isolation seems similar. How do you compare the rugged beauty of Royal County Down with the shadows falling at Shinnecock or NGLA. You can't. Because when you are there nothing seems better.


Hole by hole, shot by shot Pine Valley beguiles. Mayday just said that #1 was the easiest hole. I would argue it is often one of the hardest for the best players. That speaks volumes one of the hardest holes for the best players might seem eminently playable to a double digit handicapper. No disrespect intended Mike! :-*


Oakmont has greens that are beyond wonderful, I marvel at the ability to keep them so hard , so fast everyday. However if you played Pine Valley at those speeds almost no one would break 75. When its really firm and fast, which is rare given the problems it then presents, everything changes. Very few players see just how difficult it then becomes, very few have experienced it in the forty years I have been blessed to examine it.


So if we are talking a course to play every day stop the discussion, its not the best. I can think of more than a few that fit the bill. But the intricacies of the greens, the demand to consistently hit solid shots in the right spot are unparalleled. Crump must have had an angel on his shoulder and the Jersey Devil pulling at this pant leg when he envisioned this place, its that good.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 07:35:28 AM by archie_struthers »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2019, 07:28:59 AM »


I said it stands by itself architecturally. There is no relief from the features smacking you in the face throughout. NGLA has many breaks in the action.
Mike,I like perceived breaks in the action and consider that part of design..
I understand what you are saying about PVGC but that is the exact reason I would prefer NGLA or Shinnecock or Merion.  I prefer architecture, whether it be a home or golf course that i a little more subtle and often not seen at first.  A white wall with one painting placed perfectly is much more to me than a wall of ten paintings that make me focus on none.  Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate PVGC but it has never been my " got to go there" place.  Actually I think many confuse the overall experience with making it their favorite course.  JMO...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2019, 07:53:00 AM »
This was my second play with three Crump Cup walks.
AKA Mayday

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2019, 07:56:16 AM »
 ???


Mike Young I don't know how many times you have played there but I suspect the more you play it the more it entices you. I by no means was ever a world class player but when I was an assistant there and you played with their ilk it was very hard for them to beat you.  They just hadn't been there enough to understand how to play it. The constant is that all the holes , all eighteen are wonderfully designed, not an outlier in the bunch. That's why I agree with Mayday as to the GCA.


 







mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2019, 08:18:58 AM »
For a golf course to stand alone at the top it’s about architecture for me. My disappointment yesterday was that I pulled too many drivers into the woods that I couldn’t relate to the architecture.
It’s about the play and the walk.
 I have never been affected by the views when I relate to the architecture. I don’t care about my play either.


Flynn said give me a good piece of land and I’ll give you a good golf course. The moderate slopes here provide golf throughout the hole. Few courses have this kind of a palate.


If there wasn’t as much width than the architecture would get choked by the trees. The water does not sit parallel to play ( which I hate).


They are slowly opening up the course. 5 and 12 are like previews of coming attractions.


For me golf architecture is how you relate to the land. No course I have played does it as relentlessly as here.
AKA Mayday

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2019, 08:41:04 AM »
Hole #14 would be a standout, stalwart hole on most courses.


The fact that it is probably the weakest link at PV is telling.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2019, 09:48:52 AM »
Relentless, the correct word to describe the course Mayday. And after 18 you are breathless.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2019, 09:59:05 AM »
Is there a possibility, however remote, that PV might host either a PGA or a US Open?  How about a Ryder Cup? 

Reading Archie's posts makes me think all the club would have to do is to make the course F&F and run the greens at modern pro speeds.  Any guesstimates on what the winning score might be in this fantasy event? 
 

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2019, 10:05:00 AM »
I haven't played Pine Valley and it's not among the hand full of remaining courses I'd like to see, but let me get this straight:  What I have learned thus far is that the greatest course in the world - by far, smacks you in the face.  All right then.

I do like the tone and comments of this thread. 

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2019, 10:14:09 AM »
NGLA is like a puppy compared to PVGC.
It’s fun but not relentless. It’s minor league compared to Pine Valley which is major league playoff level.


Did Nick Ribiero get hold of your password Mike?  Architecture is not always about "relentless".

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2019, 10:15:52 AM »
I haven't played Pine Valley and it's not among the hand full of remaining courses I'd like to see, but let me get this straight:  What I have learned thus far is that the greatest course in the world - by far, smacks you in the face.  All right then.

I do like the tone and comments of this thread. 

Bogey


My FB comment was it is like fighting Mike Tyson and after each hit saying Thank you sir may I have another?
AKA Mayday

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back