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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« on: June 13, 2019, 03:42:29 PM »
Around these greens at Pebble?
Eh?
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2019, 03:48:58 PM »
I'm seeing 4 including the green level.

Looks like they've added an extra collar....

The first green ring(most inner one) appears to be same height of green...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 03:52:20 PM by Kalen Braley »

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2019, 04:09:28 PM »
With enough time and money, isn't four or six cuts of rough around the green a perfectly fine way to differentiate approach shots? Why not?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2019, 04:24:16 PM »
With enough time and money, isn't four or six cuts of rough around the green a perfectly fine way to differentiate approach shots? Why not?



Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2019, 05:48:25 PM »
Jaeger Kovich posted some great photos and drawings of this on his instagram account @propergolf in the stories tab

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2019, 06:07:51 PM »
I'm liking the shaved fairway run off over the cliff on 6...that's a neat setup feature.

But the rough, around the greens at least, ain't looking too bad.  Seeing lots of chip-ins and recoveries....

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2019, 08:02:50 PM »
One day...
in my fantasy world...


a course like Pebble..


will
not
need


to
be
"set up"


But I do see grass on the greens-so kudos
all snarkiness aside, the course looks great
of course there's been no "unexpected outbreak" (said in a nasally high voice) of sunshine.


I will give the USGA kudos for another thing though
The US Open is very much an OPEN with 78 spots filled via qualifiers, unlike The Open which hardly is an open anymore with only 12 qualifying spots not filled from Tour results
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 08:04:29 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2019, 01:19:35 AM »
No, at the edge of the green there are two “clean up” cuts one clockwise, one counter clockwise. These are done with the greens hand mower. The difference in colour is purely the direction of travel, towards you is dark, away is light.
Cave Nil Vino

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2019, 02:20:30 AM »
No, at the edge of the green there are two “clean up” cuts one clockwise, one counter clockwise. These are done with the greens hand mower. The difference in colour is purely the direction of travel, towards you is dark, away is light.


Good spot Mark. I saw Tiger mark his ball from the darker shaded green and for a moment thought he was marking incorrectly. But on a birds-eye view, you could see it was still green.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2019, 03:11:02 AM »
There would appear to be only one length of grass in this now colourised old photo of PB. The difference in light/darkness of colour being the direction of travel of the up/down mowing pattern in use.
Thoughts?
atb

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2019, 04:20:13 AM »
It may not be six cuts, but it is five cuts within what looks like a couple of clublengths of the green. Which is obviously absurd.





« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 04:24:37 AM by Scott Warren »

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2019, 06:38:31 AM »
There would appear to be only one length of grass in this now colourised old photo of PB. The difference in light/darkness of colour being the direction of travel of the up/down mowing pattern in use.
Thoughts?
atb



What would the fairway height have been back then? I really have no idea.

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2019, 06:47:27 AM »
I'm liking the shaved fairway run off over the cliff on 6...that's a neat setup feature.

But the rough, around the greens at least, ain't looking too bad.  Seeing lots of chip-ins and recoveries....


I agree and 10 should has the same.  Not 9 I believe but it marries less on 9.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 11:08:19 AM by Paul Carey »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2019, 07:16:39 AM »
This might deserve a separate thread,
but


Given the desire to test the players with firm greens-which isn't always attainable due to weather or wanting actual puttable grass on the greens(I'll leave the fast part for another debate)..


What about a slightly higher cut for the fairways (back to the stone ages of the 70's or 80's) that creates slightly less spin, making approaches more difficult to spin exactly and put judgement of lie, sidehill lies(due to ore friction keeping ball from finding flat spot)


This would  slighly reduce roll on tee shots(they could still be firm and bouncy)
and place more of a premium on angles given less ability to spin it from anywhere.
and make players use height, not just spin, when needed to stop the ball.
Additionally, less irrigation would be required to keep them healthy, increasing the chances they would be firmer.


Would certainly make the game far more fun for average players as well-allowing them to actually hit some decent shots around the green with chilichunkitis or always putting.


While some would argue the slightly reduced spin increases luck in the fairway, I would argue it requires more skill to evaluate lie and hit a creative, controlled shot, rather than a dialed in Trackman(Plus or minus air density)number-and makes a player think about angle of approach if less spin attainable.
Somehow Hogan, Nelson, Snead Nicklaus, Trevino etc. managed to control distance in such conditions.


It's certainly no less "fair" than killing and turning a green into a bumpy plinkofest to "protect par" where sheer luck of the draw is involved.


Of course they could apply the same treatment to the greens,to allow healthy firmer turf, and use more interesting pins in slopier spots..to create a wider variety of speed on uphill, sidehill and downhill putts and approaches.


Heavy sigh..


I will say I enjoy the slopes still on the greens and fairways at Pebble and they are far greater than most courses with the greens running at a good speed for the slopes.


But they are not reflective your normal Tour or high end course.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2019, 08:03:29 AM »
Well said Jeff. :)
And with lots of width too.
atb

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2019, 08:47:58 AM »
Can anyone explain why this is absurd or otherwise objectionable? I think it looks and plays just fine.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2019, 11:42:23 AM »
Can anyone explain why this is absurd or otherwise objectionable? I think it looks and plays just fine.
For one course, once a year no big deal.  One thing I would be concerned about are all the green committee chairman sitting in their living room watching the tourney sending a whatsapp message to their superintendent saying, "hey, did you see all the different cuts of rough around the greens at Pebble?  Let's do it as it would look great at our place."
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2019, 12:50:03 PM »
It may not be six cuts, but it is five cuts within what looks like a couple of clublengths of the green. Which is obviously absurd.







Scott,

I too noticed that the bunker surrounds hadn't been cut, but didn't consider it a cut per se as it was limited to just the immediate area around bunkers......

I do agree its absurd to have all those cuts so close to each other. With a 200 yard approach shot, hitting any one of those could be the difference in a gentle breeze after ball is struck, far too arbitrary to reward or punish in any rational way...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2019, 12:53:47 PM »
Can anyone explain why this is absurd or otherwise objectionable? I think it looks and plays just fine.


I'll try:


1.  It's highly artificial, in an obvious way.


2.  It distracts from the natural beauty of the setting.


3.  It's an attempt to introduce fairness by punishing the shot that's more off line, which, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to courses that are easier for good players and very difficult for bad players.  Which would be okay for a national championship, if it wasn't on TV with every 2-handicap green chairman in America watching.


4.  It's unreasonably expensive to do it that way for 99.9% of clubs in the world.


5.  Archery is about getting inside the bullseye, or the adjacent interior rings.  Golf is only supposed to be about getting the ball in the hole across a natural playing field.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2019, 12:57:46 PM »
Tom fully agreed,


#6) I'll add the completely arbitrary nature of punishing/rewarding a shot in so many different ways that all land within 2 or 3 yards of each other....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2019, 01:05:49 PM »

#6) I'll add the completely arbitrary nature of punishing/rewarding a shot in so many different ways that all land within 2 or 3 yards of each other....


Every line you paint out there is arbitrary, and falling on the wrong side of it worsens the result.


The idea that doing it incrementally (to make it more fair), thereby makes the whole exercise fair, is the fallacy.  Unsurprisingly, that's the same sort of incrementalism we see in the politics favored by the professional class [of which USGA staff and volunteers are certainly a part]:  dressing up an unfair system to make it sound fair, instead of treating everyone with compassion.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2019, 01:12:49 PM »
Tom,

I think lines are OK, as long as they have some rational basis. 

- If the rough line is 15 yards from the Center of Fairway
- 2nd Rough line another 10 yards out from 1st Cut.
- Course boundary another 15-20 away from that...

At least there is some sense of relative punishment related to accuracy....

But to go from green height to nasty fifthly rough with 5 different grass lengths, all within 3 yards of each other?  That's when absurdly arbitrary kicks in...

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2019, 01:41:56 PM »
Once upon a time golf was like this -

These days it seems to be more about thi$ -

:(
atb

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2019, 01:43:16 PM »
.... One thing I would be concerned about are all the green committee chairman sitting in their living room watching the tourney sending a whatsapp message to their superintendent saying, "hey, did you see all the different cuts of rough around the greens at Pebble?  Let's do it as it would look great at our place."
Nicely put Jeff. :)
atb

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Am I really seeing SIX! levels of cut...
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2019, 03:19:31 PM »
At least this maintenance practice prevents the dreaded lie of one's ball resting on the fringe against a three-inch wall of rough.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

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