[Tommy Williamsen]

This past week or so so there have been a few threads about BPB and Crooked stick and others that value difficulty. At BPB the the bunkering, narrow fairways, and long rough was a way to  "protect par."


I like a difficult course. After all I belong to Ballyhack which has a slope of 153 from the member tees. Same is true for Musgrove Mill which has 145 from the member tees. From the back tees, the slope is 147, even at only 6900 yards.


Ballyhack can be long but there a plenty of tee options. Most of the fairways are pretty wide. I think there are something like 75 bunkers. They are deep and plentiful. For a long time the rough in places was always uncut and knee high fescue. Finding the ball was exciting. Not anymore. I like it because It makes me think. The greens have a lot o slope and undulations.


Number five has a 60 yard wide green.There are three unforgiving bunkers in the middle of the fairway. Aim at the middle and normally players hit something less than driver.The hole goes down off the tee and the green is elevated some twenty-five feet above the fairway. The green has four distinct areas. Depending where the pin is I will hit either to the right of left of the fairway. To get the most even lie many folks hit is to the right. Left can give the player an awkward stance.


I have taken friends to Congressional and they struggle with the rough. They don't enjoy the day. The options a few. Just be sure you hit in the fairway. Most tell me they don't need to come back.


Most of us on this site don't mind a difficult course but there needs to have variety than just hit it in the fairway or wedge out of the rough.
What kind of hard do you enjoy?

[Joe Hancock]

Tommy, if I can substitute the word “challenge” for “difficulty”, I would respond thusly:


I enjoy the challenge of greens that are designed with enough interest and impact on the angle of the approach shot into them, that I must consider that element as I stand on the tee and make a decision on how far, and in what direction I must hit the tee shot.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy, if I can substitute the word “challenge” for “difficulty”, I would respond thusly:


I enjoy the challenge of greens that are designed with enough interest and impact on the angle of the approach shot into them, that I must consider that element as I stand on the tee and make a decision on how far, and in what direction I must hit the tee shot.

I like the word "Challenging." I actually prefer to Difficult. I only the word because of how some have used it recently. Your post very nicely describe strategy. It can be different for every player. The first time my wife and I played the TOC. Two Americans joined us on the first tee. After a few holes that caddies got to know our games a bit. On some tees he'd tell my wife to hit it left and told me to hit it straight. The other caddie did similar advice. On some holes we were instructed to hit it three different directions.

[mike_malone]

 Elevation change on approaches to the green work for me. Rising approaches provide the top challenge but greens that are lower are also challenging.

[Bill Brightly]

Naturally windy sites, misleading width, multi-sectioned greens, and fast and firm conditions throughout.

[Jeff Schley]

Basically anything with alot of OB or lateral hazards from the tee as I tend to spray. This screws me most often with lost balls off the tee.

[Rob Marshall]

Naturally windy sites, misleading width, multi-sectioned greens, and fast and firm conditions throughout.

I like fast and firm because I think it makes the game easier for me when the rough isn't very penal. If the rough is up it's a different story.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like fast and firm more all the time as I get older. Fast and firm with wind is just terrific. I calls on the player to have imagination, feel, and good thought processes.

[Thomas Dai]

Fast and firm with wind is just terrific. I calls on the player to have imagination, feel, and good thought processes.

+1
Atb

[Michael Dugger]

Jones quote about water equaling a plane wreck whilst sand equaling a car wreck comes to mind here.


I want the difficulty to still allow for a miracle shot to get the player back into regulation. 


A few exceptions not withstanding.  I like bunkers to be genuine hazards.  As in they very well might cost you a shot type of hazard, but that's because I think hazards should present the soul of the design strategy.  Dare a hazard, risk a reward.


Long rough---so long you cannot ever advance the ball near the green---is just boring.  I don't think there is strategy in the thought "hit the fairway" or else.  It's sort of putting the cart before the horse. 


I like difficulty in waves, some times on the drive, some times on the approach, some times on the green.  Unless you are consistently shooting 59 I have a hard time with anyone ever saying a course is too easy.   

[Sean_A]

We all know what difficult is. Whatever version is on offer, I like difficult in small doses, just enough to separate the men from the boys. I understand the neccesity for of a bit of difficulty here and there as well as awkward stuff, but that is for the sake of variety. It entertains me most when the heart of a course is about interest and challenge. I generally find this sort of stuff difficult enough.

Ciao

[Steve Kline]

The kind that doesn't result in a lost ball or prevent any attempt at recovery shot. So, I don't like difficulty that involves lots of water, OB, and long rough.


I'm down for difficult that involves firm and fast, undulating greens, necessitating angles, centerline bunkers that result in chip outs (can still try to hit the green and one putt for par).


Wind is the ultimate in difficult, especially combined with firm and fast, but it can't be relied upon.


Pinehurst #2 is the kind of difficult I like. I'm basically never going to lose a ball. But, it is very hard to get good birdie looks and very easy to make bogey because of the difficult of getting up and down. As a plus handicap since I was 16, I never managed to shoot under par there from any set of tees in almost 150 rounds.

[jeffwarne]

 The first time my wife and I played the TOC. Two Americans joined us on the first tee. After a few holes that caddies got to know our games a bit. On some tees he'd tell my wife to hit it left and told me to hit it straight. The other caddie did similar advice. On some holes we were instructed to hit it three different directions.

I often wonder, after playing many modern monstrocities ......why so few, if any courses are designed to actually(and practically) be played this way-especially given the "varied" abilities of those who can afford to join them.
Surely shared and or intersecting fairways, hazards within them, and options to consider and navigate can be managed at least to a point where not every so called "wide" fairway, is not surrounded by ball eating, defensive swing inducing, cheap eye candy wavy grasses and worse.
, and the player can tack his or her way around while choosing their own line to produce safer/possible tee shots leading to longer but more ground game approaches, while another chooses an entirely different line to obtain a preferred anglt to a tilted green(of course that only works if we run the greens below 14 (something that seems to be on every modern monstocity member's(and raters) wish list, and increasingly being seen at classic courses-rendering useable pins, fun, and faster rounds obsolete

[Thomas Dai]

The first time my wife and I played the TOC. Two Americans joined us on the first tee. After a few holes that caddies got to know our games a bit. On some tees he'd tell my wife to hit it left and told me to hit it straight. The other caddie did similar advice. On some holes we were instructed to hit it three different directions.

I often wonder, after playing many modern monstrocities ......why so few, if any courses are designed to actually(and practically) be played this way-especially given the "varied" abilities of those who can afford to join them.
Surely shared and or intersecting fairways, hazards within them, and options to consider and navigate can be managed at least to a point where not every so called "wide" fairway, is not surrounded by ball eating, defensive swing inducing, cheap eye candy wavy grasses and worse.
, and the player can tack his or her way around while choosing their own line to produce safer/possible tee shots leading to longer but more ground game approaches, while another chooses an entirely different line to obtain a preferred anglt to a tilted green(of course that only works if we run the greens below 14 (something that seems to be on every modern monstocity member's(and raters) wish list, and increasingly being seen at classic courses-rendering useable pins, fun, and faster rounds obsolete

+1
atb

[Adam Clayman]

Mother Nature's.

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