[John McCarthy]

My only play of Crooked Stick was in 1989 as a reward for caddying in the Mid-Am in September.  It was a savage, difficult course which made Daly's hijinks a few years later the more shocking.  Back then I could hit the ball and we played from the yardarms, but every dogleg I tried to cut I found misadventure.


But I found the greenside bunkers not so bad if you kept your wits.

[Lou_Duran]

Ross,


I am not knocking Crooked Stick for being a residential course, which it most certainly is and Google Maps will verify it.  That the housing is very upscale and unobtrusive is a good thing, but only partially mitigates the impression it gives.  I suspect that my opinion of CS is considerably higher than those of many raters.


Ditto for Ted's comment which may or may not have been in response to my observation that the topography is unexciting.  Yes, Mr. Dye created rolling terrain and uneven lies, but with only 49' of elevation change from high to low points (ascent of 177').  In comparison, Bethpage-Black, not a particularly hilly course, offers nearly double that.


I play on a residential course- have not hit a single house in 6+ years of playing it- that is considered very flat even by north Texas standards.  I think it is a much better course than it is perceived, and a lot of that has to do with golfers and raters preferring core routings away from housing and larger elevation changes. 


I don't remember CS that well in regards to drainage, but a major flaw of my home course is the 100+ catch basins in play which were built to move water from the sculptured fairways and green complexes.  Perhaps Mr. Dye was a better engineer than our guy, but apparently there is a price to be paid when rolling terrain has to be created to generate interest.  I am told by a friend at CS that with the typical Midwest weather, firm and fast conditions are difficult to achieve on an ongoing basis. 


 

[Ken Fry]

Crooked Stick is a great example of Pete Dye creating the illusion of elevation change with the dig out fronting area on greens.  That was used so effectively on holes like #7.
I stand by earlier comments I made regarding recent changes to hole #17.  I'm not a fan of the water feature added left of the green.  The deep valley and bunker left of the green that use to be there was a great challenge to attempt the heroic recovery.  Now there is no option for recovery.  Ted's comment about 16-18 possibly resulting in 3 X's rings true.  I'm not against a hard challenge but I hate no possibility of recoveries.
Ken

[Chris Wirthwein]

 Tom – good to see you at Crooked Stick Wednesday along with Ted Sturges, Ross Harmon and many others. (As you feared, you left your copy of the Crooked Stick book behind. I’ll get you another one!)

To help clear up some of the questions about Crooked Stick I’m posting a few images along with some descriptions. All of them come from the Crooked Stick history book I wrote, working with the Dyes over many years. The second edition came out last year (2018) and Alice was very active and helpful with her inputs and review. She had a keen editor’s eye for both copy and photos
NOTE: Apologies for the messed up/duplicate photo links and text. I rarely post images and this is the best I could figure out after about 90 minutes of trying...

First is a high res image of “Muir of Golf.” Pete and Alice told me they had this drawing created around 1964 to help them raise money to acquire land and build what was later renamed Crooked Stick. Many people don’t know this, but Crooked Stick was entirely the dream of Pete and Alice – their vision for a golfer’s club (not a country club!) in Indianapolis. Pete told me he used this drawing to pitch the idea to prospective subscriber members. Local banker Bob Sweeney (Merchants National Bank) told Pete that if he could sign 60 subscribers at $6000 each, his bank would loan him the balance of the money needed to acquire the land and build the course. In the early 2000s, neither Pete nor Alice could recall who did this drawing, but both assured me it wasn’t either of them. https://i.imgur.com/7HXpZOK.jpg?1[/img]]
Next is a drawing of Crooked Stick dated Nov. 18, 1965 – a few months after the newly completed back nine opened for play. Construction on the front nine (top of the drawing) had not yet begun. The back nine (lower) portion of the drawing is a very faithful representation of the original build. The front nine is pretty close, though not exactly what was built. This is curious to me in that Pete must have had a clear picture of what he intended to build for the front nine, even though it would be another 6+ months before construction would begin. Pete explained to me he didn’t build Crooked Stick from a drawing, but he must have had it in his head and was able to describe it to the artist who drew this.  Again, neither Pete nor Alice could recall who did this illustration. It is framed behind glass and currently hangs in the foyer of the Crooked Stick clubhouse. I put the wall hanging in my car and drove it 800+ miles to my publisher in Ithaca, New York in 2008 to have it photographed while framed and under glass at a photo studio that specialized in photography of fine art. [url=http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/]
Finally is a photo of the 12^th hole “volcano” Tom described. It is on the left side of this circa 1985 photo. The scene is shot from about 50 yards short of the green, looking north, back toward the tee. Pete told me the floor of this “pit” is the original elevation of the back nine farm ground. As Tom said, lots of dirt was moved to build up the movement of the land at Crooked Stick from flat earth. The 12^th is just one example of this. [url=http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/]
Happy to share what I learned from the Dyes about Crooked Stick  and post more photos from the book if folks have more questions…

[Kalen Braley]

Pebble appears to be surrounded by housing on 3 sides, would one claim its a housing course as well?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pebble+Beach,+Del+Monte+Forest,+CA/@36.5645408,-121.9433727,1721m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x808de65575d06bad:0x9ceb3d0199872125!8m2!3d36.5725286!4d-121.9485937

[Sven Nilsen]

Of course not, its a hotel course.


Cypress, however, is a housing course.


Not that any of this matters.

[Matthew Petersen]

Thanks Tom for your comments...great stuff.


I am a member at CS and agree with some of the "non-Tom" comments that are posted here, and I disagree with others.


For the comment above that the fairways are narrow like Bethpage, that's inaccurate.  The fairways at Crooked Stick, and the playing corridors in general, and generous and encourage one to hit driver nearly everywhere.


Disagree that the topography is unexciting.  To Tom's initial post, Pete created something pretty cool out of an Indiana cornfield.  Most would have no idea that the property was dead flat at the start.  The back nine is especially interesting topography wise.


Agree that the course is handicapped by the housing (to Tom's comment, that helped Mr. Dye get the project completed), and that it is a "tough slog" all the way around.  The course is very penal (16-17-18 provides a finish where a good round can end with three X's)...too penal for my taste (I was a 6 when I joined and I'm now a 10, headed higher I fear, due to how hard this place is).


I like Tom's comment that CS perhaps didn't get the acclaim it deserved as something special built on a poor piece of land.  50 years later, Crooked Stick is a pretty cool place.


TS

Ted,


Regarding the fairways are narrow like Bethpage is inaccurate, have they considerably widened or tightened the fairways since google earth last updated? It appears they are very similar widths according to google? Or do you consider the widths both offer to be generous?

I measured Crooked Stick and Bethpage fairways on Google Earth. CS fairways are typically 33-37 yards wide, with areas that pinch and a few areas that are wider. BPB fairways are 2-=24 yards wide, generally, though a few spots get as wide as 30 yards.


Crooked Stick has narrow-ish fairways, certainly by the standards of the discussion group, but they are clearly consistently wider than Bethpage Black.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Thanks Tom for your comments...great stuff.


I am a member at CS and agree with some of the "non-Tom" comments that are posted here, and I disagree with others.


For the comment above that the fairways are narrow like Bethpage, that's inaccurate.  The fairways at Crooked Stick, and the playing corridors in general, and generous and encourage one to hit driver nearly everywhere.


Disagree that the topography is unexciting.  To Tom's initial post, Pete created something pretty cool out of an Indiana cornfield.  Most would have no idea that the property was dead flat at the start.  The back nine is especially interesting topography wise.


Agree that the course is handicapped by the housing (to Tom's comment, that helped Mr. Dye get the project completed), and that it is a "tough slog" all the way around.  The course is very penal (16-17-18 provides a finish where a good round can end with three X's)...too penal for my taste (I was a 6 when I joined and I'm now a 10, headed higher I fear, due to how hard this place is).


I like Tom's comment that CS perhaps didn't get the acclaim it deserved as something special built on a poor piece of land.  50 years later, Crooked Stick is a pretty cool place.


TS

Ted,


Regarding the fairways are narrow like Bethpage is inaccurate, have they considerably widened or tightened the fairways since google earth last updated? It appears they are very similar widths according to google? Or do you consider the widths both offer to be generous?

I measured Crooked Stick and Bethpage fairways on Google Earth. CS fairways are typically 33-37 yards wide, with areas that pinch and a few areas that are wider. BPB fairways are 2-=24 yards wide, generally, though a few spots get as wide as 30 yards.


Crooked Stick has narrow-ish fairways, certainly by the standards of the discussion group, but they are clearly consistently wider than Bethpage Black.

So Bethpage are 24 and Crooked Stick come with a range of 33-37.
And 33-37 is wide but not by this groups standards and Bethpage is not.


Got it...

[Erik J. Barzeski]

So Bethpage are 24 and Crooked Stick come with a range of 33-37.
And 33-37 is wide but not by this groups standards and Bethpage is not.

Got it...

Even taking the low end, 33 is 37.5% wider than 24. 37 is over 54%.

[Matthew Petersen]

Thanks Tom for your comments...great stuff.


I am a member at CS and agree with some of the "non-Tom" comments that are posted here, and I disagree with others.


For the comment above that the fairways are narrow like Bethpage, that's inaccurate.  The fairways at Crooked Stick, and the playing corridors in general, and generous and encourage one to hit driver nearly everywhere.


Disagree that the topography is unexciting.  To Tom's initial post, Pete created something pretty cool out of an Indiana cornfield.  Most would have no idea that the property was dead flat at the start.  The back nine is especially interesting topography wise.


Agree that the course is handicapped by the housing (to Tom's comment, that helped Mr. Dye get the project completed), and that it is a "tough slog" all the way around.  The course is very penal (16-17-18 provides a finish where a good round can end with three X's)...too penal for my taste (I was a 6 when I joined and I'm now a 10, headed higher I fear, due to how hard this place is).


I like Tom's comment that CS perhaps didn't get the acclaim it deserved as something special built on a poor piece of land.  50 years later, Crooked Stick is a pretty cool place.


TS

Ted,


Regarding the fairways are narrow like Bethpage is inaccurate, have they considerably widened or tightened the fairways since google earth last updated? It appears they are very similar widths according to google? Or do you consider the widths both offer to be generous?

I measured Crooked Stick and Bethpage fairways on Google Earth. CS fairways are typically 33-37 yards wide, with areas that pinch and a few areas that are wider. BPB fairways are 2-=24 yards wide, generally, though a few spots get as wide as 30 yards.


Crooked Stick has narrow-ish fairways, certainly by the standards of the discussion group, but they are clearly consistently wider than Bethpage Black.

So Bethpage are 24 and Crooked Stick come with a range of 33-37.
And 33-37 is wide but not by this groups standards and Bethpage is not.


Got it...

I'm not sure what you're acting confused about. You claimed that the fairways at CS and BPB "look" about the same from aerials. I actually measured them and it turns out the Crooked Stick's fairways are roughly 50% wider than BPB's. I never said CS has wide fairways. I don't think anyone in this thread did. In fact you have been here praising the course for having narrow fairways. They're just ... not as narrow as Bethpage Black.

[Nick Ribeiro]

I find it funny a group who is demanding never ending wide fairways and wants to redesign championship courses that don’t give them their width are all the sudden okay with fairways a few yards wider as if it makes a difference to them.... #obviousbias

[Kalen Braley]

Nick,

I must admit, I'm remain continuously baffled (on a daily basis) of how we read the same things and come up with two entirely different conclusions/takeaways....

Edit:  Looks like Ran had enough... 

[Josh Tarble]

Crooked Stick is not a visually stunning course, that much is for sure.  But it is one that gets better each time you play it, there are new little pieces that you can pick out each time around. At first I thought it was fairly uninspiring but after a dozen or so plays, I believe it's really good and can stand up with Pete's best.


I also feel like it's prototypical Pete Dye.  I see some bashing it's difficulty and lack of playability, but I don't find that to be the case.  Dye just does a great job enticing a player to play the difficult shot and if they don't pull it off, they're screwed.  I find #12 the perfect example of that.  The fairway is very wide to a layup or short drive, there's plenty of grass around the green, just play the conservative shot.  However, no one plays it that way and the shots become increasingly difficult. 

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