[Rob Marshall]

From an architectural stand point could some tell me why there isn't much love for Torrey Pines South? When I've played it the fairways were not narrow. I've played when it's been wet and the rough has been brutal but I've also played it when the rough was fine. Length isn't an issue. You can't play the pro tees and the others range from 7051 to 6153. Not long for a par 72 course. There are no forced carries. Seems to me that the course can be played and enjoyed by all levels of golfers. Look forward to hearing from the experts. Thanks

[Mark Fedeli]

I've enjoyed my rounds at Torrey, and liked the course more than I thought I would. As most will surely agree, it's a great place to spend an afternoon. That said, I'm hard-pressed to think of a notable course with more wasted potential than South, and I think that is at the root of many people's criticism of the place.


It's not that there aren't some good holes out there — there are, and even more excellent greens. But the routing does not take enough advantage of the cliffs or the canyons, and the maintenance/mowing lines are boring and monotonous and choke some of the life out of it.


It could be so much more, and given the incredible amount of attention it receives, it should be so much more. Just think what a more imaginative architect could do with the property if the city allowed some risks to be taken.


In the end, perhaps much of it comes down to how you prefer your golf. If the acres of lush, green rough surrounding the greens and the relatively narrow fairways does not bother you, or if you aren't bored by all the fairway bunkers being off to the sides, then I imagine you'd get much more from the experience. But if you see all of that and just see a lack of subtlety and imagination, then you'll surely knock the course down a peg, if only to punish it a bit for all the hype.

[Pete Lavallee]

William Francis Bell, aka Billy Bell Jr. was told to stay away from the canyon edges prior to construction. They are not ideal for golf as the roll over rather than have a sheer drop like Pebble Beach. Most likely a safety issue. Many people climb gown the goat trail to get to the nude Blacks Beach; dozens are rescued by helicopter every year. They now charge $1,200 for a helicopter rescue!


Rough is grown to 3” for the Farmers and then gradually brought down to 1” for regular play; it’s a nonissue for 10 months of the year. Fairway lines remain constant however, sadly deferring to the narrowness needed to keep PGA Tour Pros from going low.


Only 2 of 18 holes dogleg, 6 and 7, the rest are dead straight. The course does have enough tee options for any golfer to play from the distance that suits their game. Black tees are never set out, you must get permission to play from the tips.


All of the green side trouble is to the sides of the green, miss short and straight and your up and down isn’t too challenging. However who misses short and straight! You can run your ball on to all 18 greens; the aprons are rye so it is possible to chase one on. Missing to the side insures you are in a deep bunker well below the surface of the green. This is compounded by the fact that you will probably be landing on a downslope, this is what really irks Phil about the redesign.


Strangely the Kikuyu fairways do not hold up well to cart traffic; I would imagine 95% of the tourists who play here take one.


The course is in a redesign phase right now, adding new bunker liners to all bunkers and moving many fairway bunkers further out to combat the lack of a significant distance increase? The par 5 6th and 13th have temporary greens creating a par 4 and par 3 while 2 holes are being worked on. You must take a cart at a somewhat reduced rate.


There is little strategy unless you believe hitting it high and straight is the soul of strategy.


The greens are all divided into 3 sections with ridges, the sections are all very flat to accommodate the mandatory USGA 14 stimp speeds.


It does however have a wonderful sense of place and only the sternest curmudgeon will complain about spending 4.5 hours in such a wonderful place. 10 minute tee time spacing insures a good pace of play; the North still uses 8 minute spacing a a long round is almost insured. The Torrey Pine tree only grows here and on one of the Channel Islands off Santa Barbara. Their needles point to the ground so any condensation drips beneath the tree. Sadly bark beetles are decimating them right now.

[Tom_Doak]

It's incredibly straightforward, which some people would edit down to "boring".


It is also what Bernard Darwin once described as "inland super mare" in character . . . you get to look at the ocean, but it doesn't have much of anything to do with the golf holes.  I understand all the reasons for that, as Pete L. pointed out just above, but if the course was really great it would not require such explanations.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I hope this discussion can press on without a lot of vitriol.


After my one and only play I thought it was a very good golf course. I wish there were more doglegs. It would add a little interest off the tee. I like the shots into the greens and it certainly is a great place to spend four hours. I don't need to go back though.

[Tom_Doak]

After my one and only play I thought it was a very good golf course. I wish there were more doglegs. It would add a little interest off the tee. I like the shots into the greens and it certainly is a great place to spend four hours. I don't need to go back though.

If you don't need to go back, it's not that good.

[Pete Lavallee]

Hey, I live in SD and only play it a couple of times a year!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Hey, I live in SD and only play it a couple of times a year!

South Dakota is a long way to travel for Torrey Pines.

[Bill Brightly]

From an architectural stand point could some tell me why there isn't much love for Torrey Pines South? When I've played it the fairways were not narrow. I've played when it's been wet and the rough has been brutal but I've also played it when the rough was fine. Length isn't an issue. You can't play the pro tees and the others range from 7051 to 6153. Not long for a par 72 course. There are no forced carries. Seems to me that the course can be played and enjoyed by all levels of golfers. Look forward to hearing from the experts. Thanks

Rob, I will answer your question by describing my one and only time I played TPS. I won a sales contest to San Diego, spouses included. I convinced my wife to extend our trip so I could play TPS and then Doak's Stone Eagle.


We played TPS just a few weeks before the US Open. Carts on cart paths only...The rough was incredibly oppressive. Miss the fairway, and a lost ball was a strong possibility. Only my superb "former caddy" skills allowed our group to find most of these balls, Once found, it was gouge it out and pray for the fairway. I was a solid 3 handicap at the time, so I managed the course well enough. The views of the Pacific were superb but that body of water was not part of the course. My wife hated it, perhaps because I found her ball more times than not... The single we played with was not so fortunate. He ran out of balls on Hole 18. I offered him one of mine but he said, "no thanks, I'm done." Then he walked in...


My wife LOVED Stone Eagle and became a Doak butt boy from that point forward. :_

[Nick Ribeiro]

My wife LOVED Stone Eagle and became a Doak butt boy from that point forward. :_

Does your wife also know Bill #2?

[Nick Ribeiro]

I've enjoyed my rounds at Torrey, and liked the course more than I thought I would. As most will surely agree, it's a great place to spend an afternoon. That said, I'm hard-pressed to think of a notable course with more wasted potential than South, and I think that is at the root of many people's criticism of the place.


It's not that there aren't some good holes out there — there are, and even more excellent greens. But the routing does not take enough advantage of the cliffs or the canyons, and the maintenance/mowing lines are boring and monotonous and choke some of the life out of it.


It could be so much more, and given the incredible amount of attention it receives, it should be so much more. Just think what a more imaginative architect could do with the property if the city allowed some risks to be taken.


In the end, perhaps much of it comes down to how you prefer your golf. If the acres of lush, green rough surrounding the greens and the relatively narrow fairways does not bother you, or if you aren't bored by all the fairway bunkers being off to the sides, then I imagine you'd get much more from the experience. But if you see all of that and just see a lack of subtlety and imagination, then you'll surely knock the course down a peg, if only to punish it a bit for all the hype.

Exactly how he started redesigning Bethpage.... We can save a ton of time with this one, you want wider fairways, half par holes, an old course look, and you want to reroute the course...

[Jeff Schley]

First, this is truly a treasure for it is one of the best municipal courses (or complexs because they have 2 courses) in the country. I grew up playing muni golf (sporadically) and having a great course owned by the people is rare unfortunately. Thus, it gets an extra point or two for this distinction as it is for all and maintained by all.
I have played the South 3 times and the North twice. Architecturally I fully admit to it being boring and when I have played it, honestly never was it in what I would call above average condition.  It gets a ton of play and seeing as they are open every day and their season is year round tough to give it much rest or attention perhaps. When the wind blows the into the wind holes cause you to play longer approaches, but don't really find the ball running onto many greens, thus although there are not many hazards in front of the greens the grass/moisture mowing prevents very much roll out IME.
We also have to talk about the elephant in the room of great ocean views, which I'm very fond of and adds to my enjoyment of a round of golf. This has been a polarizing point for several threads this year and no it shouldn't impact the pure architecture of a course, but it certainly adds to the playing experience. As a result I enjoy or rate my round at a Cape Wickham (which is much more interesting of a golf course than TP btw) as one of the five best of my life.


Does anyone really look at the actual clothes or swimsuits at a fashion show? I don't think so, they look at the model eye candy, rightly or wrongly, or the producers would use mannequins and say look at that outfit.

[Rob Marshall]

From an architectural stand point could some tell me why there isn't much love for Torrey Pines South? When I've played it the fairways were not narrow. I've played when it's been wet and the rough has been brutal but I've also played it when the rough was fine. Length isn't an issue. You can't play the pro tees and the others range from 7051 to 6153. Not long for a par 72 course. There are no forced carries. Seems to me that the course can be played and enjoyed by all levels of golfers. Look forward to hearing from the experts. Thanks

Rob, I will answer your question by describing my one and only time I played TPS. I won a sales contest to San Diego, spouses included. I convinced my wife to extend our trip so I could play TPS and then Doak's Stone Eagle.


We played TPS just a few weeks before the US Open. Carts on cart paths only...The rough was incredibly oppressive. Miss the fairway, and a lost ball was a strong possibility. Only my superb "former caddy" skills allowed our group to find most of these balls, Once found, it was gouge it out and pray for the fairway. I was a solid 3 handicap at the time, so I managed the course well enough. The views of the Pacific were superb but that body of water was not part of the course. My wife hated it, perhaps because I found her ball more times than not... The single we played with was not so fortunate. He ran out of balls on Hole 18. I offered him one of mine but he said, "no thanks, I'm done." Then he walked in...


My wife LOVED Stone Eagle and became a Doak butt boy from that point forward. :_

Bill, I played once when it was a rainy period and the rough was tough as you mention. The ocean, I guess you could call it the ocean does come into play on 4.


I'm reading "Anatomy of a Golf Course" and Tom mentions that the impression of a course sometimes comes down to how you played. The first time I played TPS I played the third hole and was mesmerized  by the view across the water to La Jolla. It was a beautiful 70 degree SD day. I walked on to the 4th tee and the ocean was like glass. To this day I still remember thinking to myself "it doesn't get any better than this". Perhaps that clouds my judgement and admittedly I know very little about architecture. This was the first course I played by the ocean. Long before I played Pebble and over in Ireland.

[Kalen Braley]

Rob,

Living here in Northern Utah with towering majestic mountains, its almost impossible to build a course without several amazing views ....and it never gets old. But I've never once confused that with the quality of the course.

I've been to TP several times, and enjoyed those same views you speak of, but never tempted to even play it once, much less at the scamish green rates they charge now.  But there will always be plenty of sheep lined up to "play where the pros play".

[Bill Charles]

Rob,

Living here in Northern Utah with towering majestic mountains, its almost impossible to build a course without several amazing views ....and it never gets old. But I've never once confused that with the quality of the course.

I've been to TP several times, and enjoyed those same views you speak of, but never tempted to even play it once, much less at the scamish green rates they charge now.  But there will always be plenty of sheep lined up to "play where the pros play".

Kaylan you are missing out on nothing. It’s a long slog of endless boring golf. If you want views you mind as well just go to Bandon where you can get good golf also.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Bill, I played once when it was a rainy period and the rough was tough as you mention. The ocean, I guess you could call it the ocean does come into play on 4.


I'm reading "Anatomy of a Golf Course" and Tom mentions that the impression of a course sometimes comes down to how you played. The first time I played TPS I played the third hole and was mesmerized  by the view across the water to La Jolla. It was a beautiful 70 degree SD day. I walked on to the 4th tee and the ocean was like glass. To this day I still remember thinking to myself "it doesn't get any better than this". Perhaps that clouds my judgement and admittedly I know very little about architecture. This was the first course I played by the ocean. Long before I played Pebble and over in Ireland.



Rob,


That feeling of being mesmerized rarely comes. I am glad you experienced it. Don't allow others to bully you into believing it wasn't real because it may be a while before it comes again.

[Rob Marshall]

Rob,

Living here in Northern Utah with towering majestic mountains, its almost impossible to build a course without several amazing views ....and it never gets old. But I've never once confused that with the quality of the course.

I've been to TP several times, and enjoyed those same views you speak of, but never tempted to even play it once, much less at the scamish green rates they charge now.  But there will always be plenty of sheep lined up to "play where the pros play".

Kalen, I like it and would play it again if I was out in SD. I never said it was a great course. I find it enjoyable. I’m a little perplexed that someone can dislike a course they’ve never played. However I certainly respect everyone’s opinion.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Rob,

Living here in Northern Utah with towering majestic mountains, its almost impossible to build a course without several amazing views ....and it never gets old. But I've never once confused that with the quality of the course.

I've been to TP several times, and enjoyed those same views you speak of, but never tempted to even play it once, much less at the scamish green rates they charge now.  But there will always be plenty of sheep lined up to "play where the pros play".

Kalen, I like it and would play it again if I was out in SD. I never said it was a great course. I find it enjoyable. I’m a little perplexed that someone can dislike a course they’ve never played. However I certainly respect everyone’s opinion.

Some have a closed mind to the degree of deciding they don't like something without even experiencing it... I hope Kalen can see what thousands of golfers can see in Torrey Pines... One day...

[Bill Charles]

From an architectural stand point could some tell me why there isn't much love for Torrey Pines South? When I've played it the fairways were not narrow. I've played when it's been wet and the rough has been brutal but I've also played it when the rough was fine. Length isn't an issue. You can't play the pro tees and the others range from 7051 to 6153. Not long for a par 72 course. There are no forced carries. Seems to me that the course can be played and enjoyed by all levels of golfers. Look forward to hearing from the experts. Thanks

Rob, I will answer your question by describing my one and only time I played TPS. I won a sales contest to San Diego, spouses included. I convinced my wife to extend our trip so I could play TPS and then Doak's Stone Eagle.


We played TPS just a few weeks before the US Open. Carts on cart paths only...The rough was incredibly oppressive. Miss the fairway, and a lost ball was a strong possibility. Only my superb "former caddy" skills allowed our group to find most of these balls, Once found, it was gouge it out and pray for the fairway. I was a solid 3 handicap at the time, so I managed the course well enough. The views of the Pacific were superb but that body of water was not part of the course. My wife hated it, perhaps because I found her ball more times than not... The single we played with was not so fortunate. He ran out of balls on Hole 18. I offered him one of mine but he said, "no thanks, I'm done." Then he walked in...


My wife LOVED Stone Eagle and became a Doak butt boy from that point forward. :_

Bill, I played once when it was a rainy period and the rough was tough as you mention. The ocean, I guess you could call it the ocean does come into play on 4.


I'm reading "Anatomy of a Golf Course" and Tom mentions that the impression of a course sometimes comes down to how you played. The first time I played TPS I played the third hole and was mesmerized  by the view across the water to La Jolla. It was a beautiful 70 degree SD day. I walked on to the 4th tee and the ocean was like glass. To this day I still remember thinking to myself "it doesn't get any better than this". Perhaps that clouds my judgement and admittedly I know very little about architecture. This was the first course I played by the ocean. Long before I played Pebble and over in Ireland.

At least you admit you know very little. Please understand you can walk off the property and see the same view up and down the coast. The golf course sucks, you weren’t mesmerized, you were fooled my friend.

[Rob Marshall]

 Bill, I don’t care what you think. You’re nothing more than a troll. I asked for architectual reasons, a civil conversation, not your bullshit. I’ll be less polite that the other posters. Go fuck yourself. I’m sure your good at it by now. What a miserable life you must lead. Apologies to the readers. Someone needed to say it.

[Bill Charles]

Very rude! Expected from someone who thinks Torrey Pines is a great golf course.

[Rob Marshall]

Great? Show me where I said that? You’re pathetic but you already know that.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Bill,


What don't you like about Torrey Pines? Personally I think it's terrible to make someone feel like a special golf moment wasn't real just because you don't like the course it happened on.


All who are watching but afraid to comment,


Thousands have been mesmerized by Torrey Pines, rightfully so.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

What don't you like about Torrey Pines? Personally I think it's terrible to make someone feel like a special golf moment wasn't real just because you don't like the course it happened on.

Nick, what, architecturally, do you like about Torrey Pines?

[Tim Leahy]

Bill, I don’t care what you think. You’re nothing more than a troll. I asked for architectual reasons, a civil conversation, not your bullshit. I’ll be less polite that the other posters. Go fuck yourself. I’m sure your good at it by now. What a miserable life you must lead. Apologies to the readers. Someone needed to say it.

+1000

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