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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
What do the courses that succeed in providing consistently firm & fast conditioning on heavy/clay soils do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure success?


Is it keeping fairway thatch to a minimum?


Aggressive topdressing?


Turning off the water? Or perhaps only selectively hand watering?


Tree removal to improve airflow and sunlight?


Various forms of drainage including XGD?


What are some of the prime examples of clubs in the United States that have went from playing soft/slow to firm/fast?
H.P.S.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2019, 11:15:17 PM »
In my neck of the woods, Shoreacres and Old Elm really established themselves as playing faster and firmer than almost all other courses around.  Bob O'Link got much better after their extensive renovation and drainage improvements too. 


The only reason that I think these are good examples is that this is an extremely soggy area and they are doing something to counter it.  They are all really well funded though, so maybe their methods aren't available to all. 

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2019, 11:16:21 PM »
Ask Don Mahaffey
Wolf Point has lots of surface drainage
Don used very little irrigation
It is windy with few trees
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2019, 11:40:57 PM »
Pat,


We have heavy clay soils in Winnipeg, and did an aggressive fairway aeration and topdressing program every fall for nearly a decade.  We now have a decent layer of sand under the fairways which helps drainage substantially and allows for the possibility of keeping conditions firmer and faster as long as Mother Nature doesn't intervene.


Tyler

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2019, 12:14:54 AM »
In my neck of the woods, Shoreacres and Old Elm really established themselves as playing faster and firmer than almost all other courses around.  Bob O'Link got much better after their extensive renovation and drainage improvements too. 


The only reason that I think these are good examples is that this is an extremely soggy area and they are doing something to counter it.  They are all really well funded though, so maybe their methods aren't available to all.


It has been many years since I played Shoreacres but given its proximity to the lake is it on sandy ground?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2019, 01:03:41 AM »
In my neck of the woods, Shoreacres and Old Elm really established themselves as playing faster and firmer than almost all other courses around.  Bob O'Link got much better after their extensive renovation and drainage improvements too. 


The only reason that I think these are good examples is that this is an extremely soggy area and they are doing something to counter it.  They are all really well funded though, so maybe their methods aren't available to all.

It has been many years since I played Shoreacres but given its proximity to the lake is it on sandy ground?


I don't believe so.  Definitely does not seem like it. 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2019, 02:32:34 AM »
Good drainage, aerification and little irrigation. Simple not rocket science.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2019, 05:29:00 AM »
Understand your nitrogen/fertility source.
 
How much nitrogen do you *really* need to add?

For cultivation practices, set out to ameliorate the problems about which you are concerned.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2019, 08:27:15 AM »
1) Embrace the strengths of a heavy soil - tend to be richer and have much more buffering capacity than course soils. First mistake most make is trying to change the soil characteristics. Might as well go try and empty the pacific with a bucket.
2) surface drainage...way, way, way to many in our business think they can engineer clay to act like a free draining soil with all sorts of French drainage, sand caps....get the water in a pipe or into a ditch while having it travel the shortest distance possible, as fast as possible.
3) irrigation management - allowing heavy soils to completely dry is a huge mistake as it is so hard to get them wet again. Use moisture meters, learn the ranges that hit good playability and growing conditions, then learn exactly how much irrigation changes those ranges. Treat irrigation like a chem or fert application. Know your rates and outcomes.
4) stay on top of basic cultural practices and those practices don’t come in a jug

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2019, 10:22:13 AM »
Good drainage, aerification and little irrigation. Simple not rocket science.


+1


Would also add the "right recipe of chemicals" on the grass.




BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2019, 10:40:00 AM »
Canterbury in Cleveland definitely gets this right. It has the firmest fairways I have ever played on a site with heavy soil.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2019, 11:22:40 AM »
1) Embrace the strengths of a heavy soil - tend to be richer and have much more buffering capacity than course soils. First mistake most make is trying to change the soil characteristics. Might as well go try and empty the pacific with a bucket.
2) surface drainage...way, way, way to many in our business think they can engineer clay to act like a free draining soil with all sorts of French drainage, sand caps....get the water in a pipe or into a ditch while having it travel the shortest distance possible, as fast as possible.
3) irrigation management - allowing heavy soils to completely dry is a huge mistake as it is so hard to get them wet again. Use moisture meters, learn the ranges that hit good playability and growing conditions, then learn exactly how much irrigation changes those ranges. Treat irrigation like a chem or fert application. Know your rates and outcomes.
4) stay on top of basic cultural practices and those practices don’t come in a jug


Excellent post, Don.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2019, 03:28:00 AM »

The other mistake made by almost all constructors/installers these days is not digging the drains deep enough. You cannot get them in too deep with 5 foot been a desirable minimum but deeper is better.


Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2019, 06:05:10 AM »
1) Embrace the strengths of a heavy soil - tend to be richer and have much more buffering capacity than course soils. First mistake most make is trying to change the soil characteristics. Might as well go try and empty the pacific with a bucket.
2) surface drainage...way, way, way to many in our business think they can engineer clay to act like a free draining soil with all sorts of French drainage, sand caps....get the water in a pipe or into a ditch while having it travel the shortest distance possible, as fast as possible.
3) irrigation management - allowing heavy soils to completely dry is a huge mistake as it is so hard to get them wet again. Use moisture meters, learn the ranges that hit good playability and growing conditions, then learn exactly how much irrigation changes those ranges. Treat irrigation like a chem or fert application. Know your rates and outcomes.
4) stay on top of basic cultural practices and those practices don’t come in a jug



Nothing more to add-Knocked it out of the park, Don.


Our fairways are generally flat here, as Pete wanted to the fairways to mimic the  low lying marsh areas. We have over 800 drains in our fairways, alone. The reason? Get the water to a pipe as fast as possible. Before raising the golf course 3 years ago, we had the entire property GPS'ed to the 1/10th of an inch to make sure water moved. That was the driving force behind the entire renovation.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2019, 12:32:38 AM »
What Don said.


Plus read this interview with Scott Anderson of Huntingdon Valley.  A real manifesto:


https://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/feature-interview-with-scott-anderson-part-i-august-2005/
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2019, 06:17:44 PM »
Surface drainage, and sand top dressing is the bottom line.  Many ways to skin a cat to get there.  Courses that have rock hard fairways with clay sub soil typically have a religious top dressing program, and quality drainage.  It’s much easier to obtain these conditions without golf carts also....but oh yeah this is the USA...carts are everywhere.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2019, 06:57:23 PM »

It has been many years since I played Shoreacres but given its proximity to the lake is it on sandy ground?


No, it's not sandy at all.  They just have had superintendents who don't water any more than absolutely necessary, and the ravines provide opportunities to get the water off quickly . . . you don't have to worry about water table issues there.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2019, 09:29:03 AM »
1) Embrace the strengths of a heavy soil - tend to be richer and have much more buffering capacity than course soils. First mistake most make is trying to change the soil characteristics. Might as well go try and empty the pacific with a bucket.
2) surface drainage...way, way, way to many in our business think they can engineer clay to act like a free draining soil with all sorts of French drainage, sand caps....get the water in a pipe or into a ditch while having it travel the shortest distance possible, as fast as possible.
3) irrigation management - allowing heavy soils to completely dry is a huge mistake as it is so hard to get them wet again. Use moisture meters, learn the ranges that hit good playability and growing conditions, then learn exactly how much irrigation changes those ranges. Treat irrigation like a chem or fert application. Know your rates and outcomes.
4) stay on top of basic cultural practices and those practices don’t come in a jug


Thanks for your post, Don.


A few questions for a novice like myself:


What do you mean by "buffering capacity?"


Do you believe in aerification of fairways? Or does that fall into changing the soil characteristics?


On water usage - I'm guessing that you would recommend more spot watering as opposed to just turning the irrigation system on?
H.P.S.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2019, 03:45:42 PM »
I love Don's reply. The man knows his business.

Buffering capacity refers to the soil's tendency to resist a change in pH, and to absorb, retain, and release nutirents to the plant roots.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2019, 09:07:20 PM »
I love Don's reply. The man knows his business.

Buffering capacity refers to the soil's tendency to resist a change in pH, and to absorb, retain, and release nutirents to the plant roots.


Ok - sorry...dumb question but how does the above relate to firm and fast turf?
H.P.S.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2019, 05:21:00 AM »
I love Don's reply. The man knows his business.

Buffering capacity refers to the soil's tendency to resist a change in pH, and to absorb, retain, and release nutirents to the plant roots.


Ok - sorry...dumb question but how does the above relate to firm and fast turf?


Growth rates, among other things. Highly buffered soils not only hold on to nutrients longer but also tend to be soils that hold water for longer, too. Over watered and over fed is not a recipe for firm and fast!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2019, 02:51:21 PM »
Selecting the right grass?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2019, 11:53:43 AM »
How helpful is XGD?
H.P.S.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2019, 01:25:59 PM »
They ensure the super won't be fired for Tawny fairways and Browned-out high spots.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Key Maintenance Practices for Firm & Fast on Heavy Soils
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2019, 04:22:06 PM »
How helpful is XGD?



Im not sure how viable XGD would be in fairways. Its not cheap, but has been successful on greens. PC Drainage is starting be an an affordable way to get drainage in with little disturbance.


https://twitter.com/pc_florida/status/1130927989896679424
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

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