[Kyle Harris]

Imagine being so aloof and up your own butt that you don't realize the very question you're attempting to discredit is a key component to your opinion on another thread about the greatness of a golf course.

[Kalen Braley]

Only one course comes to mind for the "hard bogey" category as Mike describes above....although he didn't specifically call out forced carries to the fairway on non-par 3 holes.

The Idaho Club after the Nicklaus re-do has several holes where the white tees have a significant carry to the fairway over water.  And even when you accomplish that, the next shot is often difficult. There are also several other holes where you have OB on one side and a water hazard/gunch on the other, so its very much hit it straight or else.  And a couple of holes have multiple forced carries, (one on the tee shot, another on the approach). I couldn't even imagine trying to play this course on a windy day...

Easily the most difficult course I've ever played and it will certainly never be confused as a top notch course...

[Mike_Young]

Can any of you name good courses that have hard bogeys?

Every top course per the Golf Digest list should have hard bogey holes. Resistance to Scoring is part of their criteria and the harder courses seem to be favored on that list. If you look at the courses that receive high scores in the Resistance To Scoring category you'll find tons of hard bogey holes, by design.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-our-panel-ranks-the-courses

Down at the bottom of article it lists the courses and there scoring per category. I can think of hard bogey holes on just about every course I've played on that list. I know we do not like the category around here but its real and its scored and I believe it to be accurate.

Name me one hole other than a forced carry par three or an island green...

Before we go any further, are you now saying there are hard bogey holes but they are okay if they are forced carry par three holes or island greens? Are there any other type of "hard bogey" holes you want to add in there Bethpage may not have before we go any further? Don't want you to look any more biased then you already do....

Dude,  NAME A HOLE...OTHER THAN....forced carry par threes or island greens....

Okay so you're conceding forced carry par 3s and island green holes are hard bogey holes.
How about all the great courses with holes replicating hells half acre? Do you want to take par 4s and 5s out of this also? Or the great courses with severe penal areas or even OB close to playing areas, are those out also? How about par 4 and 5 holes with monster forced carries some mid to high level handicappers can't get through? Do those get conceded also?


You will just keep backpedaling from here man. Your question is a terrible one. Just read down the golf digest list, specifically referring to the Resistance To Scoring category and take a look at the courses on Google Maps if you've never seen hard bogey holes, they literally exist at all the greats. It's a part of golf!

Are you a real person or JKava messing with me or something?  I've seen plenty of hard , difficult golf holes but great courses have plenty of easy bogeys.   
And again..name a hole even if you have only seen it on Google maps or something but name a hole...

[Nick Ribeiro]

Easily the most difficult course I've ever played and it will certainly never be confused as a top notch course...

Kalen, you may not agree with the USGA which is a separate discussion, but have you played any of the top 100 courses the USGA has determined is harder than the Idaho club?


Some REALLY great ones you should do some research on! I think you'll find a new appreciation for challenge, even if its only because some of the courses that are harder than The Idaho Club are very well recognized as great.

[JESII]

This is a skit from the book "How To Win Friends and Influence People"...

[Peter Pallotta]

Like that episiode of The Twilight Zone, where the Martians come bearing a book entitled 'To Serve Man'...and then a couple of adventurous souls who volunteer to return with them to Mars discover a few minutes too late that it's a *cook book*!!!!!

[Nick Ribeiro]

This is a skit from the book "How To Win Friends and Influence People"...

Kalen has stated The Idaho Course is the hardest course he's ever played. I am merely trying to expand his exposure to other great courses that he would know (top 100 courses) that are even harder. I think once he and a few interested here do a little research and see which courses in the top 100 are harder than The Idaho Club, perhaps he will find a new appreciation for challenging golf.


I appreciate all golf, helping others get there and exposing them to a whole new world of golf should bring about great appreciation, no?

[JMEvensky]

This is a skit from the book "How To Win Friends and Influence People"...

This thread is just an appetizer. If you go over to the Doral thread, you can be thunderstruck by NR's command of politics and RE finance. Then there's the BPB thread where he's giving a master class in golf course design and set up. Nick's a real polymath.

[JESII]

Nick,


Welcome aboard. The Treehouse looks forward to your insightful commentary.


My input from a little light observing over the last couple days is that you will enjoy the site much more if you discuss whatever topic it is as though you were sitting next to the person at the bar as opposed to on your computer screen.


Kalen knows other people may think there are more difficult courses than the Idaho Club...but it's the most difficult course HE'S played.


Mike Young started the thread wondering about Good/Great courses that include holes that would be tough to make a bogey on if you tried FOR A GOOD PLAYER. You've decided to insult him on his qualifiers and refuse to answer the question with any more detail than..."just read down the golf digest list"


At the bar, you'd be left alone.


Best of luck

[Kalen Braley]

Nick,

As Jim has explained, its the hardest course I've ever played, but i'm nowhere near as traveled as most others on this site.  I have played other top 100/top flight courses as a reference point, and I can't think of a single "hard bogey" hole on any of them.

Notables: Cypress Point, Pac Dunes, Ballyneal, Pasatiempo, Chambers Bay, Rock Creek Cattle Club, Gozzer Ranch, Black Mesa, Black Rock, Stone Eagle, Wine Valley, Sagebrush, MPCC Shore.

There are also two courses locally that may have 1 or 2, but certainly not anywhere near the caliber of the above.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Nick,

As Jim has explained, its the hardest course I've ever played, but i'm nowhere near as traveled as most others on this site.  I have played other top 100/top flight courses as a reference point, and I can't think of a single "hard bogey" hole on any of them.

Notables: Cypress Point, Pac Dunes, Ballyneal, Pasatiempo, Chambers Bay, Rock Creek Cattle Club, Gozzer Ranch, Black Mesa, Black Rock, Stone Eagle, Wine Valley, Sagebrush, MPCC Shore.

There are also two courses locally that may have 1 or 2, but certainly not anywhere near the caliber of the above.

Nice set of courses, what are your thoughts on Gozzer Ranch? Gozzer Ranch appears to be harder than The Idaho Club from every set of tees with the exception of the ladies tees for both amateurs and skilled golfers. Did you also feel strong dislike for Gozzer Ranch?

[Kalen Braley]

Nick,


I liked Gozzer a lot, I figure its a 7.5-8 on the Doak Scale. 


I didn't think it was anywhere near as difficult as Idaho Club, but it certainly had some challenging shots, just not hole after hole of difficult shots like Idaho Club.  But the main reasons I liked it were the variety of holes, the interesting shots presented, plenty of half par holes with places to be aggressive. it was also visually appealing both in features on the course and its location right near Lake Couer D' Alene is certainly a bonus as the backdrop to a few holes.

[JESII]

I think the original question is an interesting one and all boils back to risk taking and constraint...when you know you're in deeper than your boots, you'd love a bogey and get out of dodge.

[Bill Charles]

Nick - Are you planning on listing a great course with hard bogey holes or do you just not have any idea what you are talking about?

[Mike_Young]

I think the original question is an interesting one and all boils back to risk taking and constraint...when you know you're in deeper than your boots, you'd love a bogey and get out of dodge.

Jim,Let me rephrase what I'm trying to say.  I'm saying IMHO if a good player wishes to go to any of the really great courses with the intent to play bogey golf then he can easily make a bogey on almost all holes.  Does that make any sense?

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

I think we all getting that part, well most of us! 

Even for a hack like me, if I play a hole conservatively, its still a relatively easy bogey hole.  Its almost always the forced long carry holes or ones with OB/Water/gunch on both side of the fairway that will transition it into a hard bogey hole...

I am curious what Nick is referring to as I wouldn't think courses like Pine Valley or Oakmont have hard bogey holes, but maybe i'm wrong.

[Michael Felton]

Mike,

I think we all getting that part, well most of us! 

Even for a hack like me, if I play a hole conservatively, its still a relatively easy bogey hole.  Its almost always the forced long carry holes or ones with OB/Water/gunch on both side of the fairway that will transition it into a hard bogey hole...

I am curious what Nick is referring to as I wouldn't think courses like Pine Valley or Oakmont have hard bogey holes, but maybe i'm wrong.

If you read what Scott Fawcett has to say about his Decade program (awesome by the way - highly recommended), he frequently talks about how, for the pros, their drivers typically have a 65ish yard wide shot pattern. Then you check whether there is 65 yards between penalty hazards/OB and if there is, then it's probably driver. There's a bit more to it than that around bunkers and the like, but that's the gist of it. There are very few, if any, holes on "great" golf courses that have less than 65 yards between penalty hazards. I can't really think of any. Even a course like TPC Sawgrass that has water all over the place typically only has it on one side. The top players know this. It's why Tiger spends his life in the right rough on 14 there. He's basically aiming it 40 yards away from the hazard, which is right edge of the fairway, give or take.

I think, for the most part, a good player will be able to make the easy bogey by hitting driver on a decent golf course. If that driver shot happens to put them in trouble, then they should get conservative if they want to make the bogey. BPB for example I don't think has any holes on it that you'd struggle to make bogey on after a drive that finishes within 35 yards either side of a suitably chosen target. So if you want to go out there and shoot 88, it's quite doable. You just have to forget about shooting 74 in the process. Trying to shoot 74 is how you make doubles.

Anyway - the gist of my point is that holes with OB/water/gunch on both sides of the fairway that don't give you sufficient room are bad holes and there aren't many bad holes on great golf courses.

As I previously noted, I would consider 8 on PV to be a hard bogey hole. It's a 300 yard downhill par 4. To quote Dan Jenkins, "played to a green that's about the size of a dinner plate...actually, I exaggerate, it's more the size of an ashtray". It's tiny. I just measured it and it appears to be about 11 yards wide and 24 yards deep. It has three tiers and is surrounded by bunkers. The green is quite elevated above the sand. The only way to play it is to hit the green. If you miss, you could be there all day.

[Nick Ribeiro]

I am curious what Nick is referring to as I wouldn't think courses like Pine Valley or Oakmont have hard bogey holes, but maybe i'm wrong.

Kalen,

The debate is more like which holes are not hard bogey holes and no skill level is safe. I've seen both courses bring players of all skill levels to their knees and then kick them while they are down.

If we are excluding island greens and forced carries there isn't much to talk about with PV, every hole has one of the exemptions of hard bogey holes. My personal favorite, the par 3 5th, they call it the shortest par 5 in the world. Either hit the green or your dead. There are quite a few island holes, if water does not make it an island sand does. The 10th has the famous devils asshole, the hole isn't as long as the 5th but I have seen players get in the pit of death and never come out, including single digit handicaps. I think for the higher handicapper the island green with sand around the entire thing is even harder than water. With water you drop and hit it till your on the green from the same location, I've seen guys go from sand to sand over and over around island greens with sand around them.

I've been to Oakmont in every season and they pride themselves on being brutally hard. I've also seen good players never able to finish holes. The rough on a normal day makes Bethpage rough look like a walk in the park. I have also been there for the US Open and believe it to be true when the members claim it's easier for the US Open then on a normal day. I've also found spots in play where the caddy blatantly and proudly lets you know you are more than likely ball in pocket. The trap behind the green on 2 comes to mind, put it in or be prepared for a 50 yard wedge shot. Then the church pews come into play on the next 2 holes where I've seen people pick up out of or hand wedge it out depending on location in bunker. They sell t-shirts in the shop that say Play Well Play Fast Play Poorly Play Faster. Some may argue the fairways are wider, which they are, but there is no chance of recovery from a poor shot for a higher handicapper on most holes. I've seen guys 6-7 putt greens and the member says, thats good because you can't make a 10 footer and you can't get any closer.

Yes Bethpage is hard, possibly just as hard during the actual PGA or US Open, but no chance Bethpage is as hard as either course on a normal day. You can always recover at Bethpage and I have not seen anyone wave the white flag on any hole there. Oakmont prides themselves on forcing people to cry for mercy.
 
On a side note, I had an interesting discussion with an original member at Victoria National who told me from the beginning they wanted the hardest course in the country. He asked me if I thought it was harder than PV and I said no. I most likely still stand by that however he made a very good argument. He said at PV you can miss the fairway and get lucky on a recovery hack to the fairway, at Victoria National there is water in play on almost every tee shot and if you miss you are hitting 3 from the tee. You have to hit a pretty bad shot at VN to be hitting 3 off the tee but it is possible and the water comes in to play in your head on almost every hole. The forced carries are not for the feint of heart there either.

Penal Design is one variety of design and is one of the many reasons they are so great. IMO anyway.

[Mike_Young]

I am curious what Nick is referring to as I wouldn't think courses like Pine Valley or Oakmont have hard bogey holes, but maybe i'm wrong.

Kalen,

The debate is more like which holes are not hard bogey holes and no skill level is safe. I've seen both courses bring players of all skill levels to their knees and then kick them while they are down.

If we are excluding island greens and forced carries there isn't much to talk about with PV, every hole has one of the exemptions of hard bogey holes. My personal favorite, the par 3 5th, they call it the shortest par 5 in the world. Either hit the green or your dead. There are quite a few island holes, if water does not make it an island sand does. The 10th has the famous devils asshole, the hole isn't as long as the 5th but I have seen players get in the pit of death and never come out, including single digit handicaps. I think for the higher handicapper the island green with sand around the entire thing is even harder than water. With water you drop and hit it till your on the green from the same location, I've seen guys go from sand to sand over and over around island greens with sand around them.

I've been to Oakmont in every season and they pride themselves on being brutally hard. I've also seen good players never able to finish holes. The rough on a normal day makes Bethpage rough look like a walk in the park. I have also been there for the US Open and believe it to be true when the members claim it's easier for the US Open then on a normal day. I've also found spots in play where the caddy blatantly and proudly lets you know you are more than likely ball in pocket. The trap behind the green on 2 comes to mind, put it in or be prepared for a 50 yard wedge shot. Then the church pews come into play on the next 2 holes where I've seen people pick up out of or hand wedge it out depending on location in bunker. They sell t-shirts in the shop that say Play Well Play Fast Play Poorly Play Faster. Some may argue the fairways are wider, which they are, but there is no chance of recovery from a poor shot for a higher handicapper on most holes. I've seen guys 6-7 putt greens and the member says, thats good because you can't make a 10 footer and you can't get any closer.

Yes Bethpage is hard, possibly just as hard during the actual PGA or US Open, but no chance Bethpage is as hard as either course on a normal day. You can always recover at Bethpage and I have not seen anyone wave the white flag on any hole there. Oakmont prides themselves on forcing people to cry for mercy.
 
On a side note, I had an interesting discussion with an original member at Victoria National who told me from the beginning they wanted the hardest course in the country. He asked me if I thought it was harder than PV and I said no. I most likely still stand by that however he made a very good argument. He said at PV you can miss the fairway and get lucky on a recovery hack to the fairway, at Victoria National there is water in play on almost every tee shot and if you miss you are hitting 3 from the tee. You have to hit a pretty bad shot at VN to be hitting 3 off the tee but it is possible and the water comes in to play in your head on almost every hole. The forced carries are not for the feint of heart there either.

Penal Design is one variety of design and is one of the many reasons they are so great. IMO anyway.

Nick,All the above tells me is that some people made double bogey or worse on those examples.  Good players have an easy bogey on all examples above.  Oh..sand does not make an island or forced carry since there is not a penalty shot.  Land in a bunker surrounding a par three..up and out, two putt=4.   Land in water surrounded par three, drop from other side with stoke, two putt=5.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Nick,All the above tells me is that some people made double bogey or worse on those examples.  Good players have an easy bogey on all examples above.  Oh..sand does not make an island or forced carry since there is not a penalty shot.  Land in a bunker surrounding a par three..up and out, two putt=4.   Land in water surrounded par three, drop from other side with stoke, two putt=5.

I've seen good players not finish holes. A green surrounded by sand at PV is different than a normal bunker shot for a good player, its waste area and natural sand with natural elements in. Good players can't control the ball coming out. Some may find an island green with water surrounding it to be easier. Get in the rough at Oakmont and you are hacking out, sometimes backwards. They've also been tinkering with a furrowed bunker on 14 I have heard they are considering for the rest of the course. Even the best players can't control the ball coming out. Both these courses are far harder than Bethpage on a normal day and there are a handful of others I would put in front of Bethpage when it comes to hard. Easy bogey holes are not holes good players have to pick up on, especially when they do not pick up on other courses. These courses are meant to be brutal and pride themselves on it. If you told someone at Oakmont you thought they had easy bogey holes they would surely be offended.

[Kyle Harris]

160+160+80 = 400
170+170+90 = 430
200+150+100 = 450

[Erik J. Barzeski]

These courses are meant to be brutal and pride themselves on it. If you told someone at Oakmont you thought they had easy bogey holes they would surely be offended.

Brutal doesn't mean a scratch player shoots over 90. Brutal can mean 18 "easy bogey" holes - with the rest being "hard par, nearly impossible birdie".

I think Oakmont members and players would be fine with the idea that their course has relatively "easy bogey" holes. You can play safely to get near the green, chip and two-putt pretty safely most of the time. If a good player's goal was to make 18 bogeys there, they could get around pretty easily in doing so.

It's that they try to make pars and birdies that cause the doubles.

[Mike_Young]

Nick,All the above tells me is that some people made double bogey or worse on those examples.  Good players have an easy bogey on all examples above.  Oh..sand does not make an island or forced carry since there is not a penalty shot.  Land in a bunker surrounding a par three..up and out, two putt=4.   Land in water surrounded par three, drop from other side with stoke, two putt=5.

I've seen good players not finish holes. A green surrounded by sand at PV is different than a normal bunker shot for a good player, its waste area and natural sand with natural elements in. Good players can't control the ball coming out. Some may find an island green with water surrounding it to be easier. Get in the rough at Oakmont and you are hacking out, sometimes backwards. They've also been tinkering with a furrowed bunker on 14 I have heard they are considering for the rest of the course. Even the best players can't control the ball coming out. Both these courses are far harder than Bethpage on a normal day and there are a handful of others I would put in front of Bethpage when it comes to hard. Easy bogey holes are not holes good players have to pick up on, especially when they do not pick up on other courses. These courses are meant to be brutal and pride themselves on it. If you told someone at Oakmont you thought they had easy bogey holes they would surely be offended.

Checked with a past prez of Oakmont and he is not offended....BUT the real question is " ARE YOU KAVANAUGH MESSING WITH EVERYONE?"  or is this stuff for real?  Dude I have played a lot of difficult courses and good holes are usually easy bogey...NAME ME A GOOD GOLF HOLE WITH A HARD BOGEY I ASK AGAIN...AND I AM ASSUMING YOU HAVE PLAYED THE COURSES YOU ARE SPEAKING OF ABOVE...( but it looks like you quit posting scores a few years ago ).  I. think you are Kavanaugh...

[Nick Ribeiro]

Checked with a past prez of Oakmont and he is not offended....



Knows past prez but never played there.......

[Nick Ribeiro]

These courses are meant to be brutal and pride themselves on it. If you told someone at Oakmont you thought they had easy bogey holes they would surely be offended.

Brutal doesn't mean a scratch player shoots over 90. Brutal can mean 18 "easy bogey" holes - with the rest being "hard par, nearly impossible birdie".

I think Oakmont members and players would be fine with the idea that their course has relatively "easy bogey" holes. You can play safely to get near the green, chip and two-putt pretty safely most of the time. If a good player's goal was to make 18 bogeys there, they could get around pretty easily in doing so.

It's that they try to make pars and birdies that cause the doubles.

What do you call it when a scratch player waves the white flag and doesn't finish the hole?

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