[Mike_Young]

TW this week sad that Bethpage consisted of hard birdies and easy bogeys.  That is the way good fair courses are supposed to be.  Actually I can't think of many course that have hard bogeys if one plays the proper tee. 

I disagree with TW and think that Bethpage setup consist of hard bogeys not easy bogeys. 

Can any of you name good courses that have hard bogeys?  And I don't mean for some basement dwelling slapdick that rolls it 100 yards and says professes to play the ground game...

[Kyle Harris]

The bogeys at Bethpage are easy.

Nobody chooses the easy route is the problem.

[Mike_Young]

The bogeys at Bethpage are easy.

Nobody chooses the easy route is the problem.

We sayin the same thing...

[Nick Ribeiro]

Many top ranked clubs have hard bogey holes, and normally the members pride themselves on telling you which holes they are... It always amuses me when the member brags about an unfair hole. It's almost their way of admitting its unfair but letting you know the course is getting a pass for it. I won't list examples but if you look at the top 100 courses and pick the top 3-5 hardest holes on the course, you'll find yourself many hard bogey holes.

[David_Tepper]

"Can any of you name good courses that have hard bogeys?"

Hit a poor tee shot on just about any of the par-4's (or the par-5 16th hole) at the Olympic Club Lake course and making a bogey can be pretty hard.

[jeffwarne]

Many top ranked clubs have hard bogey holes, and normally the members pride themselves on telling you which holes they are... It always amuses me when the member brags about an unfair hole. It's almost their way of admitting its unfair but letting you know the course is getting a pass for it. I won't list examples but if you look at the top 100 courses and pick the top 3-5 hardest holes on the course, you'll find yourself many hard bogey holes.

Nick
Can you describe an "unfair" hole to me?


On the thread topic
Bethpage has "hard" bogie holes because a mid-high handicapper or a shorter hitter,even if playing up tees, has absolutely nowhere to hit their second shot on many par 4's, and lacks the speed to stop their third shot(or maybe fourth if they missed the 24 yard fairway)on the front protected elevated green after their forced layup-(which they probably didn't lay up anyway)
I don't consider this unfair, just boring and repetitive
but.....they do have 5 courses

[Mike_Young]

Many top ranked clubs have hard bogey holes, and normally the members pride themselves on telling you which holes they are... It always amuses me when the member brags about an unfair hole. It's almost their way of admitting its unfair but letting you know the course is getting a pass for it. I won't list examples but if you look at the top 100 courses and pick the top 3-5 hardest holes on the course, you'll find yourself many hard bogey holes.

I totally disagree.  Give me an example...  Hard bogey holes are holes such as 17 at TPC Jacksonville which involve a penalty shot.  Otherwise a good player can play for bogey easily on most holes of length even if it is a 290 yard par three.  Thats an easy bogey.  I'm not talking about some guy missing shots.  I'm talking about a fairly decent player going out on any US Open course and playing for bogey. 

[Carl Rogers]

BPB looks totally unplayable for 16 handicapper at 6000 yards.  Where can that goler hit there second shot?

[Nick Ribeiro]

BPB looks totally unplayable for 16 handicapper at 6000 yards.  Where can that goler hit there second shot?

That is why there are other courses for the 16 handicapper. The sign and intent of the course is very clear on the sign before the first tee. 

[Nick Ribeiro]

Can any of you name good courses that have hard bogeys?

Every top course per the Golf Digest list should have hard bogey holes. Resistance to Scoring is part of their criteria and the harder courses seem to be favored on that list. If you look at the courses that receive high scores in the Resistance To Scoring category you'll find tons of hard bogey holes, by design.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-our-panel-ranks-the-courses

Down at the bottom of article it lists the courses and there scoring per category. I can think of hard bogey holes on just about every course I've played on that list. I know we do not like the category around here but its real and its scored and I believe it to be accurate.

[Kyle Harris]

Scoring involves making 3's, not 6's.


Nobody gives a shit how you brought it home to piece together that 102.

[Mike_Young]

Can any of you name good courses that have hard bogeys?

Every top course per the Golf Digest list should have hard bogey holes. Resistance to Scoring is part of their criteria and the harder courses seem to be favored on that list. If you look at the courses that receive high scores in the Resistance To Scoring category you'll find tons of hard bogey holes, by design.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-our-panel-ranks-the-courses

Down at the bottom of article it lists the courses and there scoring per category. I can think of hard bogey holes on just about every course I've played on that list. I know we do not like the category around here but its real and its scored and I believe it to be accurate.

Name me one hole other than a forced carry par three or an island green...

[Nick Ribeiro]

Can any of you name good courses that have hard bogeys?

Every top course per the Golf Digest list should have hard bogey holes. Resistance to Scoring is part of their criteria and the harder courses seem to be favored on that list. If you look at the courses that receive high scores in the Resistance To Scoring category you'll find tons of hard bogey holes, by design.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-our-panel-ranks-the-courses

Down at the bottom of article it lists the courses and there scoring per category. I can think of hard bogey holes on just about every course I've played on that list. I know we do not like the category around here but its real and its scored and I believe it to be accurate.

Name me one hole other than a forced carry par three or an island green...

Before we go any further, are you now saying there are hard bogey holes but they are okay if they are forced carry par three holes or island greens? Are there any other type of "hard bogey" holes you want to add in there Bethpage may not have before we go any further? Don't want you to look any more biased then you already do....

[Kyle Harris]

160+160+80 = 400
170+170+90 = 430
200+150+100 = 450

[Mike_Young]

Can any of you name good courses that have hard bogeys?

Every top course per the Golf Digest list should have hard bogey holes. Resistance to Scoring is part of their criteria and the harder courses seem to be favored on that list. If you look at the courses that receive high scores in the Resistance To Scoring category you'll find tons of hard bogey holes, by design.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-our-panel-ranks-the-courses

Down at the bottom of article it lists the courses and there scoring per category. I can think of hard bogey holes on just about every course I've played on that list. I know we do not like the category around here but its real and its scored and I believe it to be accurate.

Name me one hole other than a forced carry par three or an island green...

Before we go any further, are you now saying there are hard bogey holes but they are okay if they are forced carry par three holes or island greens? Are there any other type of "hard bogey" holes you want to add in there Bethpage may not have before we go any further? Don't want you to look any more biased then you already do....

Dude,  NAME A HOLE...OTHER THAN....forced carry par threes or island greens....

[Michael Felton]

Dude,  NAME A HOLE...OTHER THAN....forced carry par threes or island greens....

Can we say 8 at Pine Valley or is that an island green? That's a hole that's a pretty tough bogey, especially with the left green. How about the 2 or 20 hole at Engineers? Other PV holes spring to mind - 7 and 15. 7 you can't hit the 200 yard shot followed by the 150 yard shot or you'll be slap bang in the middle of hell's half acre. 15 gets narrower and narrower as you approach the green. If you play the lay back game there you'll struggle. PV is the only course I've seen where on every hole I could see how to make 10 without working too hard at it.


While we're at it we should ask Jean van de Velde how hard it is to make bogey on 18 at Carnoustie when you have to.

[JESII]

Michael,


I agree about Pine Valley. A good player can go around there relatively unscathed if they play well but as soon as they miss a fairway or green, odds are they'd take bogey and move to the next if offered.


Merion has some similarities in that certain bunkers are so penal that once you're in it par isn't even a consideration. You're simply hoping to survive the hole.


A hard fought bogey for me came on the fifth at Merion; drove it into the hazard on the left. Found the ball still on grass but I had to straddle the narrow creek to play it. That wedge came out a little hot and went through the fairway at 130ish. From the very thinck right rough I gauged a wedge up to 30 or 40 yards from the front green to a pin in the way back center. Pitched in 20 feet to its right and the ball came slowly across the front of the hole working back towards the front of the green leaving a 6 footer up the hill for 5 which I managed to choke in...

[JMEvensky]

A hard fought bogey for me came on the fifth at Merion; drove it into the hazard on the left. Found the ball still on grass but I had to straddle the narrow creek to play it. That wedge came out a little hot and went through the fairway at 130ish. From the very thinck right rough I gauged a wedge up to 30 or 40 yards from the front green to a pin in the way back center. Pitched in 20 feet to its right and the ball came slowly across the front of the hole working back towards the front of the green leaving a 6 footer up the hill for 5 which I managed to choke in...

Poor course management?

[JESII]

Probably...a good manager would have likely not let me play.

[Peter Pallotta]

You paint a very nice picture there.
The good player takes his medicine and grinds out a bogey, the average one doesn't even realize he's sick until he's pencilled in an "X".
Also reminded me of what I missed seeing at a course like BB: ie on recoveries, the ball 'working back towards the front of the green' etc.

[Bill Seitz]

While we're at it we should ask Jean van de Velde how hard it is to make bogey on 18 at Carnoustie when you have to.

I think there's a difference between a "hard bogey" and a "hard bogey when you're trying to make something better than bogey".  My guess is that even Van de Velde might say it was an easy bogey if you're trying to make six.  His problem is that for reasons only known to him, he was trying to make four or five. 


For example, I could walk off the par 3 second green at Kingsley with a four every single time if I was content with making a four there.  Just dump it right in front of the bunker, chip to the big part of the green, and two putt (which I did twice this weekend unintentionally).  But I'm trying to make par or birdie there, and that can lead to bigger numbers if I miss in the wrong spot.  On the other hand, 15 is actually kind of a hard bogey even if you're trying to make no worse than five, because the green is narrow enough that leaving yourself 50 yards short in two and pitching on can still result in a ball rejected from the green.  And hitting right in front of or to the left of the green can leave a difficult chip or bump that's easy to screw up.  Even playing for five there, I'm likely to walk away with six a not insignificant number of times.

[Michael Felton]

While we're at it we should ask Jean van de Velde how hard it is to make bogey on 18 at Carnoustie when you have to.

I think there's a difference between a "hard bogey" and a "hard bogey when you're trying to make something better than bogey".  My guess is that even Van de Velde might say it was an easy bogey if you're trying to make six.  His problem is that for reasons only known to him, he was trying to make four or five. 


For example, I could walk off the par 3 second green at Kingsley with a four every single time if I was content with making a four there.  Just dump it right in front of the bunker, chip to the big part of the green, and two putt (which I did twice this weekend unintentionally).  But I'm trying to make par or birdie there, and that can lead to bigger numbers if I miss in the wrong spot.  On the other hand, 15 is actually kind of a hard bogey even if you're trying to make no worse than five, because the green is narrow enough that leaving yourself 50 yards short in two and pitching on can still result in a ball rejected from the green.  And hitting right in front of or to the left of the green can leave a difficult chip or bump that's easy to screw up.  Even playing for five there, I'm likely to walk away with six a not insignificant number of times.

Agreed. I mentioned 8 at PV because I don't think there is a way to play that hole to be sure of making bogey. That green is so small that even pitching it from 40 yards away is no picnic and if you miss it's a devil's job to even hit the green. 18 at Carnoustie is not an easy bogey either. The OOB and the water are ever present there and so hitting 3 7 irons doesn't give you the simple bogey.

[Garland Bayley]

Nick,

You won't gain any credibility here until you deal with your "unfair" statement. Now answer Jeff, or excuse yourself.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Nick,

You won't gain any credibility here until you deal with your "unfair" statement. Now answer Jeff, or excuse yourself.

I was trying to spare Jeff but you want to force me not to let him go, or like him you just did not read what I said...
"It always amuses me when the member brags about an unfair hole."
So since you insist - Normally my impression of an unfair hole members brag about is one they personally don't score well on but in their defense they play there all the time and most likely have seen plenty of guests struggle on the same hole which solidifies their thought. In hopes myself (or whoever the current guest is) wont get upset if they also struggle on the hole, the member will point the hole out and explain why its unfair.
Plenty of opportunity for such penal holes at all the courses which rank highly in the Resistance to Scoring category if you just read the list supplied above.... SMH...

[Nick Ribeiro]

Can any of you name good courses that have hard bogeys?

Every top course per the Golf Digest list should have hard bogey holes. Resistance to Scoring is part of their criteria and the harder courses seem to be favored on that list. If you look at the courses that receive high scores in the Resistance To Scoring category you'll find tons of hard bogey holes, by design.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-our-panel-ranks-the-courses

Down at the bottom of article it lists the courses and there scoring per category. I can think of hard bogey holes on just about every course I've played on that list. I know we do not like the category around here but its real and its scored and I believe it to be accurate.

Name me one hole other than a forced carry par three or an island green...

Before we go any further, are you now saying there are hard bogey holes but they are okay if they are forced carry par three holes or island greens? Are there any other type of "hard bogey" holes you want to add in there Bethpage may not have before we go any further? Don't want you to look any more biased then you already do....

Dude,  NAME A HOLE...OTHER THAN....forced carry par threes or island greens....

Okay so you're conceding forced carry par 3s and island green holes are hard bogey holes.
How about all the great courses with holes replicating hells half acre? Do you want to take par 4s and 5s out of this also? Or the great courses with severe penal areas or even OB close to playing areas, are those out also? How about par 4 and 5 holes with monster forced carries some mid to high level handicappers can't get through? Do those get conceded also?


You will just keep backpedaling from here man. Your question is a terrible one. Just read down the golf digest list, specifically referring to the Resistance To Scoring category and take a look at the courses on Google Maps if you've never seen hard bogey holes, they literally exist at all the greats. It's a part of golf!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()