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Don Mahaffey

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Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« on: April 20, 2019, 06:19:19 PM »
If the trac man is to be believed, I’d say we ought to be building more holes that force players to turn it over, since it seems they all fade the ball anymore.
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Matt_Cohn

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2019, 06:41:09 PM »
I think that's the very very top players, who not coincidentally are the very very longest players. I think go down past the top 20 and you'll find more balance, although not 50/50.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2019, 07:06:16 PM »
Augusta supposedly forces you to hit a draw off the tee on many holes, unless you're a lefty.


Not many guys have gotten famous hitting a draw into the greens, though.
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jeffwarne

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2019, 08:56:56 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on April 20, 2019, 07:06:16 PM
Augusta supposedly forces you to hit a draw off the tee on many holes, unless you're a lefty.


Not many guys have gotten famous hitting a draw into the greens, though.


Ironically, Bubba fades drivers and hooks irons by choice-though he does work it both ways with irons


Don's right, not too many drawers anymore as low spin has allowed power despite fading the ball, and draws just want hang right with low spin drivers-the fade allows a very passive body oriented release and less timing involved
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2019, 08:58:02 PM »
Plenty, or many, hit a draw.

Been to a PGA Tour range lately? I'm not saying it's a majority, but it's not a small minority either.
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Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2019, 09:09:53 PM »
Quote from: Erik J. Barzeski on April 20, 2019, 08:58:02 PM
Plenty, or many, hit a draw.

Been to a PGA Tour range lately? I'm not saying it's a majority, but it's not a small minority either.


Only the guys who can putt better than your average scratch golfer hits a draw. The rest just hit and hope.
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Bill Gayne

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2019, 09:17:19 PM »
Craig Stadler on the radio this week said (I'm paraphrasing from memory) that Tiger is the only player on tour that has complete confidence to be able to hit a power fade. At Pebble Beach this summer with the US Open on line he will be the only player to stand on the 18th tee and start the ball over the Pacific Ocean with complete confidence that it will be in the fairway.


One advantage that Tiger and Phil have over the young pro's is that they learned how to play before the Pro V1 and the souped-up driver. They played and won in an era with lesser equipment.
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Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2019, 09:23:02 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on April 20, 2019, 07:06:16 PM
Augusta supposedly forces you to hit a draw off the tee on many holes, unless you're a lefty.
And 6 of the last 17 years the Masters champ has been a lefty and it is three different players so lefties seem to have a HUGE advantage these days at ANGC.
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Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2019, 09:33:22 PM »
I would say 90% plus draw their irons to their 3 wood, but fade their driver.  It is very difficult to consistently draw a modern driver, and a fade is more controllable, with gentler misses.  I think it stems from the ball being way forward in the stance on a high tee.  It's just easier to hold it off than to turn it over.
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Steve Kline

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2019, 09:51:10 PM »
Tiger hit a number of draws off the tee at Augusta.
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James Brown

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2019, 10:34:21 PM »
Quote from: Steve Kline on April 20, 2019, 09:51:10 PM
Tiger hit a number of draws off the tee at Augusta.


Yes.  I saw lots of draws at Augusta.  Pretty much every shot into 5 and 13 was a draw. 
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John McCarthy

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2019, 10:48:22 PM »
Quote from: Steve Kline on April 20, 2019, 09:51:10 PM
Tiger hit a number of draws off the tee at Augusta.


Tiger said at his height that golf was easy because there are only nine shots, high low middle, right left straight.


His low right 3 wood which won him multiple majors will be talked about until people stop talking about golf.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2019, 11:55:22 PM »
Wasn't there a scientist that proved hitting up on a ball on a tee naturally fades, while hitting down on a ball on the ground naturally draws?
Erik, who would that be?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2019, 04:44:23 AM »

Though many top players fought a hook most still chose to fade the ball. Hitting a draw was a big advantage back in the day with the old 1.62 ball whilst playing in the wind on a hard, running course but in the modern game of 1.68 combined with softer conditions and high ball flights is there any advantage to hitting a draw?



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Thomas Dai

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2019, 05:16:52 AM »
I’d go along with what Don is highlighting here. It’s a method I’ve noticed quite a few of the most elite and very longest hitters seem to be adopting, although they can indeed turn it the way if they wish. It’s worth pointing out though that the folks we watch on TV are usually the players at the top of the leaderboard, ie those playing well, rather than the players struggling at the other end of the field hitting double crosses etc.


As to TV watching, the shot-tracking system has been a real enhancement.


Atb
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2019, 06:37:32 AM »
I wish I could hit a fade anymore. I did when I was younger, but now had to go back to draw for the added distance. I just don't git it as straight and I still can't hit past the ladies tees.
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jeffwarne

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2019, 09:05:13 AM »
Quote from: Bill Gayne on April 20, 2019, 09:17:19 PM
Craig Stadler on the radio this week said (I'm paraphrasing from memory) that Tiger is the only player on tour that has complete confidence to be able to hit a power fade. At Pebble Beach this summer with the US Open on line he will be the only player to stand on the 18th tee and start the ball over the Pacific Ocean with complete confidence that it will be in the fairway.




not really who I'd pick if I had to hit the fairway with a power fade with a Driver.
DJ, Kuchar come to mind.
visions of Tiger's double cross at Bay hill #16 last year also come to mind.


I guess Stadler has more confidence in Tiger's ability to hit a power fade than Tiger does, considering 18 at ANGC is a 465 massivley uphill left to right dogleg and Tiger teed off WITH A 3 WOOD(leaving him with a 5 iron while many hit wedges)--with the possibility that he might only have a one shot lead (Koepka had an 8 footer)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 09:08:52 AM by jeffwarne »
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Blake Conant

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2019, 10:03:29 AM »
Geoff Ogilvy mentioned on the Fried egg podcast that doglegs with a turning point based amateur distance (250-260) cause the pros more grief, i.e., Wailaie.  Some guys can carry the corner over the trees, but most either have to take less club or really shape it. 


It also seems like a lot of doglegs played on tour have a ~160 degree angle, which doesn't put enough pressure on pros to shape a shot.  At Augusta there seems to be much harder angles, in the 130-150 degree range on 9, 10, and 13 specifically, that force a player to shape it or as you've seen, be out of position.  On 10 that's emphasized with the green sloping hard right to left. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 10:05:00 AM by Blake Conant »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2019, 11:29:10 AM »
Quote from: Blake Conant on April 21, 2019, 10:03:29 AM

It also seems like a lot of doglegs played on tour have a ~160 degree angle, which doesn't put enough pressure on pros to shape a shot.  At Augusta there seems to be much harder angles, in the 130-150 degree range on 9, 10, and 13 specifically, that force a player to shape it or as you've seen, be out of position.  On 10 that's emphasized with the green sloping hard right to left.


Several fairways at Augusta seem to be gently curved [2, 10, 13, 14], rather than making a turn at a specific point.  That in particular rewards a guy who can curve his ball the same way on cue.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2019, 11:33:13 AM »
Quote from: jeffwarne on April 21, 2019, 09:05:13 AM

I guess Stadler has more confidence in Tiger's ability to hit a power fade than Tiger does, considering 18 at ANGC is a 465 massivley uphill left to right dogleg and Tiger teed off WITH A 3 WOOD(leaving him with a 5 iron while many hit wedges)--with the possibility that he might only have a one shot lead (Koepka had an 8 footer)


Tiger did tee off with a two shot lead - you don't count on Koepka making birdie - and going with driver with a two shot lead would have been pretty damned confident. 


Also, hitting a power fade on 18 is pretty tough now because the trees are encroaching on the left.  Ask Jordan Spieth how that worked out on Sunday last year!  I wouldn't be surprised if that exact shot wasn't part of Tiger's equation.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2019, 11:53:07 AM »
The most shocking thing to me is, how long has it been since they put that way back tee on 18?  10 years ago?  And they're already back to hitting driver 9/Wedge into that green again.  Just insane.  What are they gonna do now?
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2019, 01:05:36 PM »
What about fairways that arc vrs fairways that dogleg in relation to tee-shot shaping and ball runout?
Atb
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Alex Miller

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2019, 03:36:33 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on April 21, 2019, 11:33:13 AM
Quote from: jeffwarne on April 21, 2019, 09:05:13 AM

I guess Stadler has more confidence in Tiger's ability to hit a power fade than Tiger does, considering 18 at ANGC is a 465 massivley uphill left to right dogleg and Tiger teed off WITH A 3 WOOD(leaving him with a 5 iron while many hit wedges)--with the possibility that he might only have a one shot lead (Koepka had an 8 footer)


Tiger did tee off with a two shot lead - you don't count on Koepka making birdie - and going with driver with a two shot lead would have been pretty damned confident. 


Also, hitting a power fade on 18 is pretty tough now because the trees are encroaching on the left.  Ask Jordan Spieth how that worked out on Sunday last year!  I wouldn't be surprised if that exact shot wasn't part of Tiger's equation.


Plus it was downwind and people were hitting driver into the bunkers.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2019, 03:41:28 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on April 21, 2019, 11:53:07 AM
The most shocking thing to me is, how long has it been since they put that way back tee on 18?  10 years ago?  And they're already back to hitting driver 9/Wedge into that green again.  Just insane.  What are they gonna do now?


Not many guys were hitting driver-wedge to that green, honestly.  Let's not overstate the case.


Koepka and Dustin Johnson are striking the ball pretty well right now, too.  Every hole looks like that when they are hitting it dead center.
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Eric LeFante

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Re: Do the best players ever hit a draw anymore?
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2019, 06:28:38 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on April 21, 2019, 03:41:28 PM
Quote from: Kalen Braley on April 21, 2019, 11:53:07 AM
The most shocking thing to me is, how long has it been since they put that way back tee on 18?  10 years ago?  And they're already back to hitting driver 9/Wedge into that green again.  Just insane.  What are they gonna do now?


Not many guys were hitting driver-wedge to that green, honestly.  Let's not overstate the case.


Koepka and Dustin Johnson are striking the ball pretty well right now, too.  Every hole looks like that when they are hitting it dead center.


They moved 18 back for the 2002 Masters.
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