[DMoriarty]

Okay, I admit it, it is because of my personal bias, but I despise multiple tee boxes.  

I am not talking about courses with a couple of tee boxes, with the front one used for some seniors, beginners, and short-hitting women.  I am also not talking about 3 sets of tee markers on these two tees.  

I am talking about these new-fangled courses with their 27 tee boxes and a 260 yd difference between the front and back.   On second thought, forget about this exaggerated  example, it is absurd enough the way it really is-- Seven tee boxes and 'only' 130 yds from front to back.

I mean come on, if there are 90 yards between the blacks and the whites, then you arent really playing the same course, are you?  Strategically, I mean.  

  If this is really necessary, then why are some of our older great courses still great with only a couple of boxes?  

In protest, I am only playing blacks from now on, and I am taking my 36 handicap friends with me.  I better get some answers or some of you might be in for some slow rounds.  

[George Pazin]

David -

I think the worst thing about multiple tees, aside from aesthetics, is the fact that not enough lesser golfers take advantage of them. Additionally, the 130 yard difference you cite sadly probably isn't even enough.

I'm fortunate enough to get out with JohnV now & then & we've played both ways - with him playing the appropriate backs & me the normal whites, as well as the same tees. On most courses we've played, the course he played from the backs was effectively shorter than the course I played from the whites, and I'm not even a short hitter. I'm way longer than most people I play with, just not in the same league as JV.

The mistake I think is most often made is that there seems to be some sort of rote formula, just make the whites 20-30 yards in front of the blues or blacks. I think the courses would be better served be putting a lot more yardage some places & a lot less in others. I don't know why anyone would ever simply have a 10 yard difference (something I often see), other than for maintenance reasons.

[Bob_Huntley]

David.

Oh the impetulance of flaming youth, a strong back and golfing ego to match. I am looking at the new 8th hole of the Shore Course at MPCC, 469 yards, sweeping dog-leg down to China Rock  and the ocean. Without multiple tees this would be a ball-breaker, with them, a foursome could elect to play whatever length suited their abilities.

Even on the Dunes, if we play the long Golds, we generally forego the 15th at 603 yards for the more benign 550 yards of the Blacks.

Of course, I am referring to a membership whose average age is closer to seventy than sixty.

[Mike_Golden]

David, I couldn't disagree with you more.  I think having tee boxes of very different lengths is perfect for a golf course, particularly for those who's skill level isn't high enough to enjoy playing the golf course to some semblance of the way it was designed.  Nothing irritates me more than hearing about a group of golfers who insist on playing the 'tips' to allegedly get the 'full enjoyment'.  

Golf is supposed to be fun. It's not fun when someone can't reach a single green in regulation and never gets to hit a creative shot.  I see that with our senior players all the time.  They hit driver, fairway wood, pitching/sand wedge over and over and over on every par 4 on the course.  Why shouldn't  they have some tees where they could actually have to think about the bunkers surrounding the greens before they hit a second shot?

It's the same thing with weaker golfers playing courses that are just too difficult for them.  I can't tell you how many times I saw people walk off Bethpage Black (even from the white tees) when I used to play there-they would play the Black because the waiting time was less (how times have changed), play the first 5 holes, lose a bunch of balls, and walk in from the 6th tee (the 12 th fairway is adjacent).

My home course has 4 sets of tees, and I don't enjoy playing the tips even though I'm a decent player of better than average length because there are several holes on the front that just aren't fun to play.  I do it occasionally but always reluctantly.

My strong belief is that everyone should play the set of tees that gives you the most varied assortment of shots during a round-that is the most enjoyable to me.  It shouldn't matter which tees anyone plays, only that they play quickly, enjoy themselves, and, over time, if their games improve, gain enough skill to move back to the next tee box.

[DMoriarty]

Guys, I realize that many courses exist where it is no fun for different golfers to play the same tee-- no fun for the short hitter to play long, and no fun for the long hitter to play short.  

This is not in opposition to what I am saying, but is in fact it is exactly what I am saying.  Yes, courses are designed for different skills from different places.  My question is, why should they be so designed?  Is it impossible to design a course which challenges all from close to the same distance?

Bob, think of the Shores before the change.  I cant remember what tee we played (if there was more than one), but I do think we all could have enjoyed either tee, even with lengths as diverse as Shivas on the one hand and you and me on the other.  

As for the new sixth, I did make an exception for "some seniors" playing one tee up.  The reason I said "some" is that you need no exception, at least not when playing with me.  

By the way, is that the long dogleg left directly bordering the Dunes?   If so, won't it play significantly downhill?

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

In some cases it's an attempt to appeal to every possible level of golfer, rather then fight the political fight about the appropriate number of tees, and their length.

It would be interesting to trace their evolution.
Did they originate at resort courses and migrate back to the guests home club, like a virus ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

George Pazin laments the aesthetics of multiple tees.

Fazio does multiple tees right!  Play a newer Fazio course, and you rarely see another tee other than the one you're playing.

Of course, this takes a lot of grading, some landscaping of trees or tall grass, and lots of lateral room, which places the tee complexes farther from the previous green, even if one tee is walkable from the green.

Assuming you believe that multiple tees are necessary, which I do, then this is a good example of how you get something - better aesthetics - when you give something, like land - in newer designs.  

The evolution of tee design in the last century is fascinating to me, and they actually, IMHO, get better all the time.....

[Marty Bonnar]

DM
Over here in Scotland it has always been the norm to have a tee setup consisting of, from the shortest:
1. The 'Ladies' tee - usually placed wiith no regard to what it does for the play or the strategy of the hole, more just in a place 'oot o' the way' of the Gents...
2. The 'Juvenile' tee - see above...
3. The 'Gents' or 'Daily' tee - the one we are ALLOWED to use six days a week.
4. The 'Medal' tee - reserved for matches, the monthly medal and competitions and woe betide you if the Club Captain/Secretary sees you playing from it on any other day...
SO, you seldom get the opportunity to play the course the way the designer laid it out or in PRACTICE for medal rounds (the only time we have the opportunity to improve our Handicaps is in Medal Play...)
Strange but True......

FBD

[T_MacWood]

I don't see a problem with multiple tees or at least two tees to make holes play relatively even for different classes of golfers. I'm not fond of some courses or holes that have 4, 5, 6 or 7 tees. It clutters things up and is probably a sign of a weak design or at least an uncertain design.

I don't know the evolution of multiple tees. I do know that Travis implemented multiple tees at GCGC before 1910.

[Buck Wolter]

Don't multiple tees help keep some variation on a course? If you have three tee boxes and you always play the back tees the most a hole changes is the length of the tee box. Change that to 5 or 6 and the back tees may play up 25 yards today changing the way you have to approach the hole, given differing winds and conditions it changes the course exponentially that you have to learn.

Now if there are 6 tees and 6 different markers than I agree that you don't have any more variation.

Buck

[A_Clay_Man]

I guess it depends on the holes design whether the added boxes will increase variety and therefore interest. I site the signature hole here at Pinon which has nine boxes. The extra two are from a different side of the arroyo and the at least one other is there for variety and maintanence considerations.  But without these types of justifications I think there is point of overkill for any number over four.

[DMoriarty]

Fazio does multiple tees right!  Play a newer Fazio course, and you rarely see another tee other than the one you're playing.

Of course, this takes a lot of grading, some landscaping of trees or tall grass, and lots of lateral room, which places the tee complexes farther from the previous green, even if one tee is walkable from the green.

Jeff, with all due respect, this is sort of what I am talking about.  You say that Fazio does tees "right!" but it seems that your view is based purely on aesthetics and framing off the tee.  

From your description, I am imagining a course where every level of golfer is playing from a substantially different angle and/or from a substantially different elevation.  And of course they are playing at substantially different distances.   It is hard for me to see how these golfers are even playing the same hole.  Do his golf holes really work on a strategic level for all these different levels, or is that not really his concern?  

Imagine a scratch, a 12, a 21, and a 33 playing together (say a grandfather, father, son and daughter on Father's Day.)  If they are all where they should be, they are all playing from different tees, completely out of sight of each other.  Or they can all go to one tee, then all go to another, then another, then another; each having to prepare for their shot from their unique new perspective.  Add that they are probably in carts because the red tee box is about 200 yards from last green.  Not exactly conducive to a quick round or enjoyable social round either.  

So what exactly is "right" about this?

[Rob_Waldron]

Are you mad? Multiple tees serve multiple purposes. They serve as means of accomodating players of various skill levels making it more enjoyable for all while speeding up the play of lesser accomplished golfers. They also provide variety for golfers who play the same course repeatedly.

Multiple tees make it possible for both my Dad and I to enjoy a round of golf together. He plays the forward tees where he is able to reach greens in regulation and I play the back tees which offer the challenge that I seek. Everybody wins!

[JakaB]

David,

You are just so wrong its really sad.....why can't a par four that is a three wood for position hole become driveable from a closer tee...why can't fairway bunkers that must be avoided become carriable bunkers from a closer tee...why oh why would you think every hole must be played in a linear fashion to be stategic...sometimes when I move up a set of tees I have more fun but shoot higher scores because its balls to the walls and to the lakes and to the weeds because I play a much more aggresive strategy....Is fun to play a hole where one day a draw is required and the next a fade...its fun to anticipate if on a given day you will get the tee that fits your game....its a privilage to be given options and anticipation and disapointment before a shot is struck....its nice to go out with your dad or wife and be able to play a carry hole where they simply carry the ball to the forward tee and kill a few worms...there is absolutely no downside for additional options....and your premise that foward tees are less walkable is completely reverse of primary common sense...I see far more backtracking to championship mega-tees that forward tees...I know you live in LA but in these parts foward is closer to the green and back is away...so as you move from one tee to the eighteenth green its really hard not to walk past each and every forward tee....cain't be said of the back...but we are a little backwards.

[SL_Solow]

I'm with JakaB on this one.  Of course it can be overdone and too many tees can spoil the aesthetics of a course.  But the options created by multiple tees can add a lot to the game.  Yesterday of fathers day, I played with my 76 year old dad and my 16 year old son.  Dad has lost a lot of distance but had a great time playing from the forward tees.  My son just moved back with me to the "men's" tees about a year ago but prior to that time he kept up by using forward tees.  I wouldn't have missed yesterday for the world and while we all could have played the same tees, it would not have been nearly as rewarding.  Experiences like this are part of what makes golf a special game and features that encourage this part of the game should be praised.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

I DON'T agree with Jaka B that you are so wrong....It just depends on what you think is important....

In theory, multiple tees allow the same strategy on each hole, presuming players pick a tee that relatively matches their tee shot distance and the distance to the fairway landing area/hazards.  Of course, this still leaves the shorter players in the landing area, but with a longer club to the green, if everyone plays a good tee shot.

You seemed to indicate a concern for aesthetics, and I hear complaints about a hole being "all tee and no fairway" frequently!  What Fazio does right is to stagger them and hide them.  Then, in most cases, you feel as if you are on "the only tee" much like older courses with fewer tee boxes.

The ones I have seen don't stagger so much as to create a completely different hole for the forward tees, but I am biased to think a 5 degree angle difference wouldn't make much difference to average players frequenting these tees....

Quoting myself, "Assuming you believe that multiple tees are necessary, which I do, then this is a good example of how you get something - better aesthetics - when you give something, like land."  So, I agree that it takes more land, and puts some tees farther from the previous green in many cases.  (But perhaps not if the holes run 90 degrees from each other)

I'm not sure if one player struggling mightily from the wrong tee is any more or less condusive to a social round of golf.  However, the situation you describe with three males is common in mixed male/female foursomes, no?  Perhaps it slows play, as does the extra distance and cart usage.

Your solution of going back to fewer tees is okay, but probably worked better in the old days when:

The distance difference among players was 25-50 yards, and not 125-150 yards as it seems to be right now,

No one really cared about women, juniors, and seniors anyway,

and everyone walked, which is not the case today.

And, as pointed out, there are many holes where a variation in length can make a hole play distinctly differently, or allow the superintendent to place tee markers to make the hole play as usual in out of season conditions....

So, you give something to get something.  What Fazio does is take the givens, (i.e. the need for multiple tees at many courses today) and try to mitigate the negatives (seeing too much tee) through clever design, accepting some other, less important negatives (i.e. use of carts, which could also be considered a given in most locales)

If and when things turn - either in general or at a specific course - like more walking, distance control, good designers like Fazio will take those criteria and come up with new designs that address those conditions.  Right now, his tees address how courses currently play very well.

[Forrest Richardson]

Multiple tee locations per hole have been fostered by several factors; frequency of play, diversity of players playing, perceived need for "perfect" turf conditions, and the variety/fun factor.

The multiple tee concept can be very rewarding when it is managed correctly. For example, we occasionally design tees which vary not only in length, but also provide optional angles to a hole or fairway. On a short par-3 here in Phoenix we suggest the course occasionally be set-up to allow the "back" tee player the shortest of the shots — just 90-yards. It drives them nuts! While the white tee player plays better from 120 as it is more comfortable.

Golf is about change and playing from the same old location is just another standard that has seen its day. Of course, the good news is that multiple tees do not preclude this archaic practice.

[DMoriarty]

You guys want more options, but what option is there really once the tee is placed on the marker?  It's not like Jeff Brauer's earlier suggestion of  an extremely wide area between the tee markers.  Sounds like you are giving the super options but not the player.  

I want more options also, and tees that dont make the duffer miserable, and changes from day to day.  I want this all from a couple or three tee boxes.  My question is:  Are architects copping-out by building courses that rely on multiple tees for these things?  Why cant they give us these things off of a few tee boxes with better, more interesting architecture.  

How many tee boxes exist at the following courses, from the top 50 thread?:  

Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Augusta, Shinnecock
Pinehurst #2, Sand Hills, Merion, Oakmont, Seminole
Winged Foot West, SFGC, Prairie Dunes, National GL, Crystal Downs

[DMoriarty]

One more question:  

Would CPC 16 be a better hole if they scrapped the landing area to the left, then dotted the crescent of the cove with tee boxes, from the existing to one of about 80-90 yds?  

That way all levels of golfers could get the thrill of going for the green in regulation!

[Forrest Richardson]

Have you even considered that the great courses you cite might be even better with an additional teeing area here and there? I am not suggesting this literally, but to think about it is quite another matter.

Golf has evolved from TOC where we had just 10 holes (greens) to primarily individual greens now designated for each separate hole. The multiple tee change was merely a matter of evolution in golf. It is not any sort of cop out. Good and solid architecture is independent of multiple tees as it involves a multitude of components.

[THuckaby2]

One more question:  

Would CPC 16 be a better hole if they scrapped the landing area to the left, then dotted the crescent of the cove with tee boxes, from the existing to one of about 80-90 yds?  

That way all levels of golfers could get the thrill of going for the green in regulation!

Obviously not.  All self-respecting male golfers go for it anyway outside of competition... and there's always the red tee for those for whom the men's tee allows only an exhilirating layup...  

You knew that had to be said.  

TH

[JakaB]

David,

Stop the logic...I thought we had established you were wrong....but I must say as much as I hate too...I do wish AGNC had not removed the previous championship tees of years gone past..they would make an excelent set of mens tees given modern technology with the current championship tees being too long and the members tees lacking tradition.   I like the super long runway tees of RTJ...gives you fewer sets and me more options..what an idea.  The bronze markers at Belerieve where Gary Player played from when he won the Open are classic and unforgettable for the one time player...or can't you just see a member saying...hey lets play the Open set up today...what fun.

[Bob_Huntley]

Huckaby wrote;

"Obviously not.  All self-respecting male golfers go for it anyway outside of competition... and there's always the red tee for those for whom the men's tee allows only an exhilirating layup..."

To which I say, "Bulls*t.

  

[THuckaby2]

You know me too well, Bob.

And it is complete bull-dung.   It was just such a perfect chance to give our friend David more crap for his very justifiable outside of the macho world "exhilirating layup", I just couldn't resist!  

TH

[DMoriarty]

Have you even considered that the great courses you cite might be even better with an additional teeing area here and there? I am not suggesting this literally, but to think about it is quite another matter.

Lets think of it literally.  Where would you put the additional tee boxes on some of the worlds great holes to make them better?  

Golf has evolved from TOC where we had just 10 holes (greens) to primarily individual greens now designated for each separate hole.

I  am not too keen on this either, but that is another thread.

The multiple tee change was merely a matter of evolution in golf.

 Whenever people start talking about "evolution"  I wonder what this means.  Sure golf architecture has changed  But all changed is not necessrily a good thing.

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