Harding Park 2020 PGA update

[Matt_Cohn]

Harding Park has started course preparation for the 2020 PGA. There are new tees on #2 (+15 yards to 455), #8 (+20 to 250), and #13 (+40 to 470). These are all estimates. As of now the tournament yardage would be about 7,230 yards, par 70. I'm not sure if more tees will be added.



Every fairway has been narrowed on one or both sides. The widths we measured were consistent at 22-23 yards. It appears that fairway will be mown around all the bunkers—not just into, but around. These lines linked to the fairway lines, so we all agreed they looked to be future fairway and not future semi-rough:



Here are a few views. The new rough hasn't really grown up yet, but you can clearly see the new fairway lines.


1:



2:






4:



#7 (the narrowest, about 21 yards):



#13. This new tee might create some issues. The tree is very much in the line of play and it's too tall to go over.



#14:






#16:



#18—fewer trees in front of the fairway than 10 years ago, and the you can see might not make it through to the PGA. It's an issue for me, though probably not for many of the big name players.

[Eric LeFante]

We haven't seen fairways this narrow in a long time. Seems a little too narrow considering how far the ball travels now.


The distance players hit the ball has completely screwed up course set-up for the pros. If tournament organizers care about keeping scores somewhat close to par, they need to make the fairways too narrow and make the greens too fast to try to keep the scores up.


I always wondered how wide the fariways were in the US Open / PGA in the 1950s - 1980s. It seems like they weren't 22 yards wide. It seems like they were at least 30 yards wide but the rough was much longer than it is now.

[Matthew Petersen]

Interesting. I'm going to be out that way in late summer (September, most likely) and hope to play Harding Park if my schedule works out. Will be curious to see how some of this work is progressing by then.


I'm not really sure how I feel about the look of a very narrow fairway that then gets super wide to expand entirely around greenside bunkers.

[Tom_Doak]

1)  It's really weird to think of Harding Park as a major championship venue.


2)  Do they have an architect consulting, or is it just all on the PGA of America execs to decide how the course will play?


3)  The fairway widths really don't matter, since the players don't think about hitting the fairway, anyway.  I overheard Claude Harmon say recently that he has NEVER worked with Dustin Johnson or Brooks Koepka on trying to hit more fairways.  It's just not a part of their thinking; they only think about hazards and obstacles when deciding where to aim or when not to hit driver.

[John Emerson]

I’m curious about these fwys...are they sodding the new lines or just allowing what’s there to grow out where they’re narrowing?

[Matt_Cohn]

I’m curious about these fwys...are they sodding the new lines or just allowing what’s there to grow out where they’re narrowing?

Just growing out what's there. It takes a long time to turn fairway grass into rough, so that's why they're starting now. I do wonder if they're thinking about overseeding, at least lightly, to get some nice thick rye grass in there.

[Matt_Cohn]

1)  It's really weird to think of Harding Park as a major championship venue.

Well, yeah. I think that sentiment is stated at some point during every round played at Harding these days!

2)  Do they have an architect consulting, or is it just all on the PGA of America execs to decide how the course will play?

I haven't heard about an architect involved.

3)  The fairway widths really don't matter, since the players don't think about hitting the fairway, anyway.  I overheard Claude Harmon say recently that he has NEVER worked with Dustin Johnson or Brooks Koepka on trying to hit more fairways.  It's just not a part of their thinking; they only think about hazards and obstacles when deciding where to aim or when not to hit driver.

Wasn't one of DJ's big changes going to that reliable fade? So I think they did work on hitting more fairways! But I'm interested is the plan for normal pro event rough, 4" or so, or some crazy US Open-style 5"+ thick rough. Knowing the PGA, probably the former, in which case I think the scores will still be pretty good.

[John Emerson]

I’m curious about these fwys...are they sodding the new lines or just allowing what’s there to grow out where they’re narrowing?

Just growing out what's there. It takes a long time to turn fairway grass into rough, so that's why they're starting now. I do wonder if they're thinking about overseeding, at least lightly, to get some nice thick rye grass in there.

If the fwy, and rough are the same grass it takes only a couple weeks for it to grow to normal rough height so that’s not why they’re starting now. 

[Kalen Braley]

I’m curious about these fwys...are they sodding the new lines or just allowing what’s there to grow out where they’re narrowing?

Just growing out what's there. It takes a long time to turn fairway grass into rough, so that's why they're starting now. I do wonder if they're thinking about overseeding, at least lightly, to get some nice thick rye grass in there.

If the fwy, and rough are the same grass it takes only a couple weeks for it to grow to normal rough height so that’s not why they’re starting now.

John,


I was wondering same.  My lawn grows 2-3 inches per week during prime growing season, and I only usually fertilize once per year.  Is golf course grass that different?

[Michael Tamburrini]

We haven't seen fairways this narrow in a long time. Seems a little too narrow considering how far the ball travels now.


The distance players hit the ball has completely screwed up course set-up for the pros. If tournament organizers care about keeping scores somewhat close to par, they need to make the fairways too narrow and make the greens too fast to try to keep the scores up.


I always wondered how wide the fariways were in the US Open / PGA in the 1950s - 1980s. It seems like they weren't 22 yards wide. It seems like they were at least 30 yards wide but the rough was much longer than it is now.

The 1992 US Open at Pebble Beach had average fairway widths of 35 yards and green speeds of 10.5 (the rough was 4-5 inches).

[John Emerson]

I’m curious about these fwys...are they sodding the new lines or just allowing what’s there to grow out where they’re narrowing?

Just growing out what's there. It takes a long time to turn fairway grass into rough, so that's why they're starting now. I do wonder if they're thinking about overseeding, at least lightly, to get some nice thick rye grass in there.

If the fwy, and rough are the same grass it takes only a couple weeks for it to grow to normal rough height so that’s not why they’re starting now.

John,


I was wondering same.  My lawn grows 2-3 inches per week during prime growing season, and I only usually fertilize once per year.  Is golf course grass that different?

Nope it’s no different than your lawn.  The reason the PGA (or any tour stop) starts so far out is because you can’t make any major changes too close to the tournament or else bad things happen.  Growing grass for golf is never an “overnight”’thing.  It needs time to mature.  Plus, Kerry Haig usually starts coming around 3-4 years out for the PGA championship/Ryder Cup to start brainstorming with supers, gm’s, architect, etc about what the course needs to look like.  For example, You can’t renovate greens 12 months from a major championship.  You need time and lots of it.  But, in this case if the rough and fwy are the same then you don’t need much time at all. 

[jeffwarne]

It's just another example of not addressing the ever growing 920 pound gorilla in the room directly, and instead solving a "problem" by shrinking the scale of parts of the course as the actual scale grows.


Pity


Was at a manufacturer meeting today where they bragged about the governing body's most recent equipment testing changes that created an "opportunity" for them to exploit.


OT? No, that's why we get these continued ludicrous, misguided setups, out of scale setups...while knee high drops and pins left in are considered constructive steps.....

[Anthony_Nysse]

I’m curious about these fwys...are they sodding the new lines or just allowing what’s there to grow out where they’re narrowing?

Just growing out what's there. It takes a long time to turn fairway grass into rough, so that's why they're starting now. I do wonder if they're thinking about overseeding, at least lightly, to get some nice thick rye grass in there.

If the fwy, and rough are the same grass it takes only a couple weeks for it to grow to normal rough height so that’s not why they’re starting now.

John,


I was wondering same.  My lawn grows 2-3 inches per week during prime growing season, and I only usually fertilize once per year.  Is golf course grass that different?

Nope it’s no different than your lawn.  The reason the PGA (or any tour stop) starts so far out is because you can’t make any major changes too close to the tournament or else bad things happen.  Growing grass for golf is never an “overnight”’thing.  It needs time to mature.  Plus, Kerry Haig usually starts coming around 3-4 years out for the PGA championship/Ryder Cup to start brainstorming with supers, gm’s, architect, etc about what the course needs to look like.  For example, You can’t renovate greens 12 months from a major championship.  You need time and lots of it.  But, in this case if the rough and fwy are the same then you don’t need much time at all.

Congressional's greens were renovated in 2010 for the 2011 US Open. They is no rule as to when you can/should renovate greens leading into a event, but it happens. There are risks.
In the last 5 years alone, Harbour Town, TPC Scottsdale, PGA National, Bay Hill, TPC Sawgrass, Innisbrook, Austin CC and Quail Hollow have renovated greens and hosted the next season.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/golf/article/PGA-officials-already-are-plotting-ways-to-13722113.php

[John Emerson]

Yeah it can be done and they’re are no “rules”, but you can drive a car with your feet too...doesn’t make it a good idea.  More time the better for major projects. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Yeah it can be done and they’re are no “rules”, but you can drive a car with your feet too...doesn’t make it a good idea.  More time the better for major projects.

John,
  Im not the one that said "cant."


But it seems like its happened a lot in the last 5-7 years without many issues.


More examples-


East Lake removed the bent in 2007 or 2008; replanted with Minverde. Played 12 months after.
Sedgefield removed the bentgrass in 2011 or 2012, planted Champion and played the next year.
Kapalua is in the process of doing so now and will host in January 2020.
Torrey Pines is renovating now and will host in 2020.



I will even include Atlanta Athletic Club. Regrassed in 2009, hosted PGA in 2011
Sherwood CC renovated 2-3 years ago, only to host a Championship Tour Event inside of 12 months
TPC Sugarloaf renovated last year and is hosting shortly.

[Jeff Schley]

Any public or even municipal course that is getting renovated I say GREAT! It is intended to reach more golfers this way and good for the game. I won't criticize the changes much at all. It helps the democratization of golf with accessibility of better courses making them a better version of themselves.

[Kalen Braley]

It's just another example of not addressing the ever growing 920 pound gorilla in the room directly, and instead solving a "problem" by shrinking the scale of parts of the course as the actual scale grows.


Pity


Was at a manufacturer meeting today where they bragged about the governing body's most recent equipment testing changes that created an "opportunity" for them to exploit.


OT? No, that's why we get these continued ludicrous, misguided setups, out of scale setups...while knee high drops and pins left in are considered constructive steps.....

Jeff,


How dare you.  Don't forget they accomplished the herculean task of changing "halved" to "tied".  That was YUGE!!

[Matt_Cohn]

If the fwy, and rough are the same grass it takes only a couple weeks for it to grow to normal rough height so that’s not why they’re starting now.

Hmm. I do know it takes a long time to turn rough grass into fairway grass, such as around the bunkers, so I can see why they're starting that now. And maybe as long as they're doing that, they did the fairway lines?


But also, Pebble Beach changed their fairway lines before the AT&T, so more than 4 months before the US Open. So obviously growing rough up for a couple of weeks doesn't get it done.

[Greg Chambers]

Reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be a thing around these parts anymore.

[Kalen Braley]

Reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be a thing around these parts anymore.

Or being a mind-reader for that matter.

Apparently grass grows to 4-5 inches just about everywhere in a couple weeks...except on golf courses.

This seems a bit like all the overkill that goes into the US Open where they have to poke, play with, slice and dice, experiment on the course for years in advance, all for what?  So they can screw it up anyways during the tournament? All so a bunch of stuffed shirts can have a job...

[Matthew Petersen]

I played Harding a week ago and the process is evident. Had never played there before but the narrowing is very obvious. Not just because the fairways are ridiculously tight, but because in most places it is still very obvious where the original lines were.


I also played with a local who pointed out some new features and tees to me.


There are not a ton of fairway bunkers at HP but where they are present, if memory serves, they kept the fairway to that side so you won't have bunkers out in a sea of rough.


I don't recall seeing many areas where they looked to be converting anything from rough to fairway height around the greens. The bunkerless 5th hole has low areas on either side of the green that are cut at fairway height but the local said it has been maintained that way for years. We're months out, but it seemed like heavy rough right near the greens was the plan for defense much like we saw at Bethpage).


Plenty of new tees being squeezed in where they could fit them, but the course is still not going to be that long for today's bombers. The most interesting new tee is on 4, a par 5 that boomerangs around to the left. There's not really any room to take the tee further back (you run into the tees and fairway for 14) so it seems they are building a tee closer to the 3rd green. This tee actually plays a bit shorter but it makes the dogleg sharper and the tee itself is much closer to the trees, which would make it more difficult for the big hitters to cut the corner by simply hitting it over the trees (though HP is tree-lined, the corridors off the tees are generally quite wide).


I'm sure they'll call 9 and 12 par 4s and firm up the greens as much as they can and really grow the rough but I would still expect low scores from the guys who are playing well there.

[Kalen Braley]

Yet another good counter point/example for the anti-rollbackers.....

Implement a big-baller ball?  Never.  Continue to disfigure courses?  Sure!

[Jim Nugent]

The fairway widths really don't matter, since the players don't think about hitting the fairway, anyway.  I overheard Claude Harmon say recently that he has NEVER worked with Dustin Johnson or Brooks Koepka on trying to hit more fairways.  It's just not a part of their thinking; they only think about hazards and obstacles when deciding where to aim or when not to hit driver.

If the PGA grows the rough deep and thick -- so it becomes a real hazard -- DJ and Brooks will have to think about fairways, won't they? 

[MCirba]

This is so stupid it stings.


If current trends continue maybe we can narrow fairways to 13-18 yards wide by 2030.



At least there are no more "hazards" in golf.

[Kalen Braley]

The fairway widths really don't matter, since the players don't think about hitting the fairway, anyway.  I overheard Claude Harmon say recently that he has NEVER worked with Dustin Johnson or Brooks Koepka on trying to hit more fairways.  It's just not a part of their thinking; they only think about hazards and obstacles when deciding where to aim or when not to hit driver.

If the PGA grows the rough deep and thick -- so it becomes a real hazard -- DJ and Brooks will have to think about fairways, won't they?

Only on the par 5s.  Pretty much every par 4, with the exception of maybe 18, they'll probably be ok with a wedge from the rough on the approach...